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Get Out Your After Run Oil

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LNeumann · Mar 05, 2001 06:46 PM

#0 source
I was reminded of something today that we all too often forget. I started work on three engines sent to me by another modeler all of which had been previously run. They had been run with castor oil fuel, but no after run oil had been put in them. Two of them (A Tower 40 and a Thunder Tiger 42) were very difficult to get apart because the rod had been varnished to the wrist pin. One of the crankshafts was, also, starting to get some surface rust.

Now, just because castor oil does a good job of lubrication, does not mean it does a good job for storage. And, although the use of synthetic oil would have prevented the varnished rod on the wrist pin, the use of synthetic oil seems to invite rust. That, then, is not the answer, either.

What would have prevented the problem in both areas, however, would have been a liberal dose of after run oil--and, especially, if the engine was going to sit for a while. As many of you know, I am partial to Marvel Air Tool Oil and use it for both after run oil in the engines we run, for long term storage, and also as an assembly oil for the engines I work on. Turning both engines upside down and filling the piston with the Marvel Air Tool oil and letting it soak for a few hours freed up both engines and allowed me to finish the job of disassemblying them. So, if it had been used as an after run/storage oil in the first place, the problem would probably never have occured.

I might add, that if the engines were to be run in this state, the rod would not have been able to rotate on the wrist pin, and, instead, the wrist pin would have to rotate in the piston which causes premature wear in the piston and sometimes on the cylinder wall.

The moral: Hie thee over to thy local hardware store and get thee some good after run oil and make sure thou useth the same in thy engines from henceforth.

Leonard Neumann

Dzlstunter · Mar 05, 2001 06:50 PM

#1 source
A very timely reminder, especially for those of us in the northern climes.

denlip · Mar 05, 2001 07:29 PM

#2 source
To concur with Leonard. I have bought a lot of motors recently predominately older Fox and Super Tigres. No mater how they are described when i get them I always dis-assemble them. As was pointed out the wrist pin is almost always stiff or frozen on the rod. Foxes always are. Amazing also is how they only took them out on sunday for a quick ride around the block. Yea sure thats right

Mike · Mar 05, 2001 11:34 PM

#3 source
The advice on after run oil is well taken. Do you have any advice on what the proper method would be to apply it? I have usually placed three or so drops down the carburator throat as well as through the exhaust port with the piston in the lower position. I then rotated the prop-3-4 times. How would you oil the crank arm?

Cary · Mar 06, 2001 03:38 PM

#4 source
Good question. I do the same as Mike with the after run oil. Is this enough or is there some other approach? Just as a note - I started with 3in1 as an after run. It was what some of the other folks at the field were using. Then when I heard about air tool oil I got my bottle and started using it. The only problem was the first start was tough. Stumbled on some Marvel oil at Post Tools and can tell a BIG difference. First starts are easy and the oil seems to lubricate better so .....

Back to the begining - is Mike's approach the way to oil or is there a different method?

Cary

peabody · Mar 06, 2001 04:51 PM

#5 source
My belief is that a good quality auto trans. fluid works well. It looks, smells, feels and TASTES the same as the after run olis offered by prominent vendors. In a previous life I was in the oil business. Creating a "special" formula for after-run oil would make it more expensive that a shot of Jack at the 21 Club!

See Ya

Peabody

Steve Helmick · Mar 06, 2001 10:50 PM

#6 source
I also like Marvel Mystery Oil, but maybe the reason is different as it was the oil specified for oiling Seelig FAI FF timers. You buy a pint can and use it for 15 years, and still have 15.5 oz. A good ATF would work just fine, Marvel air tool oil is reputed to be identical to Mystery Oil. Danny Dirt did an article in the District 11 Report in Stunt News last year about use of after-run oil. I think he used MMO, and the technique was to remove the glowplug, squirt a bunch in the intake and exhaust, and hit it with the electric starter. The idea is to both oil the engine with good stuff and flush out bad stuff. If you are afraid to use a starter on your engine, consider that it doesn't take a lot of pushing on the starter to turn it over, with no glowplug, and you have a LOT of oil in there right then. Seems like a good plan to me. Steve

LNeumann · Mar 07, 2001 07:54 AM

#7 source
Marvel Air tool oil and Marvel Mystery Oil are NOT the same. Marvel Mystery Oil is not recommended. (You can check with George Aldrich on this one.) One of the reasons that I do like Marvel Air Tool Oil over a lot of the rest is, in addition to anti-rust qualities, lubricity (it's an oil) and endurance (both 3-In-One and WD-40 will evaporate shortly and leave a residue of their own) Marvel Air Tool oil will actually enhance starting. Load your engine with some of these other blends (transmission oil, etc.) and they may protect the engine, but starting it the first time after application will be a bear. You can prime the engine with Marvel Air Tool Oil and it will fire.

Leonard Neumann

RocketCityJim · Mar 07, 2001 08:03 AM

#8 source
Len,

I heard that George also uses Shaler's Rislone - especially when re-assembling engines. I guess it will burn O.K. too. I have seen mechanics pour it directly into running auto engines. Don't know if that exactly relates to being combustible in a two stroke or not though. The trouble around here is that absolutely no one carries the Mystery Air Tool Oil. Are other Air Tool Oil's similar?? Still searching!

Rocket City Jim

LNeumann · Mar 07, 2001 08:46 AM

#9 source
Most any air tool oil will have the desired characteristics needed for our purposes. (I forgot to add degumming as a requirement.) The only thing is, I don't know about their compatibility with our fuels and ease of starting.

Just remember, most of the oils used in automobiles will not mix well with our alcohol fuel, and what runs a car engine when poured through the carburetor (gasoline) will not work with our glow fired engines. The oil used by the Chinese made engines (Magnum, ASP) is a very good assembly oil with good lasting qualities to keep parts free from rusting and such before the first start, but it is not a good oil to enhance starting. Now, that doesn't bother me for a new engine the first time out (of course, when I rework them, I have already replaced this oil with Marvel Air Tool Oil) but I wouldn't want to use it on a regular regiment as an after run oil because it does make the first start more difficult.

Check at your local Wal-Mart, any Auto supply store, any tool supply store. Many of these will handle Marvel Air Tool Oil, or can get it. Or get Prather After Run Oil (more expensive) at your local hobby shop.

Leonard Neumann

Bob · Mar 07, 2001 08:58 PM

#10 source
I am sorry for the foolish question but....do you use this every time the engine is run? Every month...week? Do you remove the glow plug? How much to use? I saw three or four drops in the intake and exhaust..is that right? I assume that is for Preventative Maintenance work. I would guess you use more if you are storing the engine?
I bought a quart today at an air tool house for $4.85 in Tulsa.
Thanks.

LNeumann · Mar 08, 2001 08:01 AM

#11 source
Nobody has really answered the question of where, when, and how often. And there is no definitive answer. Part will depend on fuel used. Part will depend on how often you fly. Part will depend on where you store the engine in between. Most of our own spare engines are oiled and sealed in a plastic bag and stored in a dry area (like a closet, not a damp basement).

Most engine manufacturers use a good assembly oil that will keep them in good condition for a number of years if never run and stored properly. But once an engine is run, moisture will be left inside plus oxides and other residues that can be quite corrosive. And then there is the gumming action of castor residue. Here is where after run oil comes in.

Now, if you use a castor/synthetic blend (50-50), you will have minimal problems with castor residue and varnish and gumming up. But any synthetic leaves its own problems, In addition to the fact that the synthetic will usually burn when in a hot run, thus providing less lubrication when you need it most, most synthetic oils leave those nasty residues that can promote corrosion. If you are using an all or nearly all synthetic oil, your problems in this area will increase.

But alcohol absorbs water, so any fuel residue of any kind remaining inside the engine can absorb water. The nitro and alcohol evaporates off quickest, and the water remains to do its thing called rust.

The key areas where rust and corrosion cause their biggest damage are the shaft and the bearings. The iron piston engines (most older engines, but even some newer Fox engines) have a second problem--the piston. On these you will need to get the piston, itself, lubed for long term storage. (Have you ever seen an engine that was stored on compression where all of the piston was bright and shiny except the portion that was open to the exhaust? Rust!)

Now, in addition to rust and corrosion, gumming can be a problem with ball bearings, piston pins, and piston rings. So:

The key areas of concern center around the lower end. This is fortunate because it makes it easier to add a few drops of after run oil in the intake at the end of the day, give it a couple of flips, and you will probably be OK for several weeks if you don't store the engine in a damp basement. I don't like to pull the plug unless you have to. It is inconvenient on most engines to pull the muffler or pipe. So the intake is where you are going to be oiling the engine most often.

Normally, if the engine is going to be run again in a short period of time, gumming won't be a problem if you follow this regiment of a couple of drops in the intake and work it through. If you are going to be storing the engine for a longer period of time, add more oil. Too much oil won't hurt. Too little and, well, you know the rest. Again, that is one of the strengths of the Marvel Air Tool Oil. It won't hurt the restart as some of the other oils sometimes used for this purpose will.

This is an area where we all (me included) often fall down. We fly one day and figure we will be back tomorrow. And, for whatever reason, tomorrow never comes. And then it drags on for a week, a month, all winter.

When in doubt, put a few drops in the intake and flip it over a few times. Then add a couple more drops. Even then, that quart of Marvel Air Tool oil will probably last most flyers a life time. But buying a second quart is still cheaper than buying a second engine.

(And, no, I don't work for the company, but, like Jared of Subway fame, I would be willing to do a few commercials. Anybody out there? Anybody reading this? YooHoo!)

Leonard Neumann

currell · Mar 08, 2001 12:55 PM

#12 source
For some ritualistic reason, I compulsively squirt 6 drops each in both the exhaust and venturi. Then flip rigorously a few times. Too much or not enuff? Dunno. currell

LNeumann · Mar 08, 2001 01:40 PM

#13 source
You cheat, Currell. You don't always (usually?) use a muffler. But i would rather see you use an extra drop or two (or six) then not enough. It won't be too much unless the stuff you use makes the engine hard starting.

Leonard Neumann

EJV · Mar 08, 2001 10:23 PM

#14 source
I especially like the mint scented stuff!!! I used to use it in the cabinet shop. All I had to do was smell the mint, and I knew if my employees had oiled their tools before they went home. :-D
hah!
Eric

denlip · Mar 09, 2001 09:49 PM

#15 source
I use rizlone and have not had a real problem starting a motor. I really never count drops just squirt it in and flip. incidentally George was right about the protective qualitiesof this oil I have just recently pulled out a motor that i oiled in 1972 and put away it is still free and the wrist pin was loose. Not bad in my book

Crap Shoot · Mar 14, 2001 06:29 PM

#16 source
If you have an engine that hasn't been used in a while but it still turns over would there be an obvious clue when flipping it over that the wrist pin might be varnished to the rod or is this something that can only be determined for certain through dissasembly?

LNeumann · Mar 14, 2001 08:52 PM

#17 source
You can only tell through disassembly. If the wrist pin freezes to the rod, the pin will pivot in the piston. The only problem is, it will then tend to wear in the piston (make the holes bigger) and, since the rod cannot move on the floating rod, it will force the rod to move, which then can either cause premature wear against the cylinder or wear the teflon ends off of the rod. All in all, if you keep a little after run oil in there, it should keep things loosened up.

Leonard Neumann

Jim T. · Mar 14, 2001 08:57 PM

#18 source
I don't think rislone burns very well. At a contest, if I'm doing a practice flight, I just fire the engine up and let it cough and spit green stuff while I walk out to the handle. If I don't do a practice flight, I prime the engine and fire it up to clear most of the rislone out well before I am called to the circle.

Jim

Rob Stagis · Mar 25, 2001 07:10 AM

#19 source
One think I DO remember is buying some hobby-shop after-run oil once. I'm not compulsive about engine maintenance (actually, I usually forget 'em after flying, other than to run 'em dry) and for whatever reason I started feeling guilty about not caring for 'em. So I bought this squeeze bottle of stuff (the label wore off and I don't know what brand it was) and squirted it religiously for a season. Same thing at the end of the season - squirt it in there, rotate a coupla times and put the planes away (I'm in New England and don't get to fly regularly during the winter). Well - come Spring - there I am with 3 pretty-well-stuck engines! The stuff evaporated, leaving a ring in the cylinder..... *sigh*.

I recently bought some eBay engines, and was able to unstick 'em by simply loading 'em up with Cox-brand fuel (just because I had it on the shelf while I was pondering my stuck 'new' engines)....worked fine. Then took off the heads and the case-backs to make sure there weren't any mouse nests in there - and started running them.....

I really should pay more attention to my stuff.........