Club Fuel Order - What Do You Recommend?

As a retread, I returned to modeling 2 1/2 years ago. Had flown Foxes and McCoys in the 60's with castor lube fuels. Before finding this forum, I had bought a new 40th Anniversary Edition Fox .35 stunt and put it on a CG Shoestring I'd built in the 60's. Went to the LHS and bought the fuel they carried (OMEGA 10% nitro). OK, you already know what is coming. In my ignorance, I ASSUMED fuel today was similar to what I'd used in the 60's. WRONG. I tried breaking in and running the Fox .35 using the OMEGA but only got a lot of "smoking" hot runs and engine stoppages. Then I discovered this SSW Forum, joined a local C/L club, and was educated about not using low % synthetic lubricant RC fuel with old iron P/L classic engines. Last year and for the future I use SIG 5% nitro, 25% castor oil fuel in my Foxes and they love it.

Now to the question where I need your experience for an answer. Last year for my OS .35/.40 FP's I used POWERMASTER 5% nitro, 22% oil (50/50 syn-castor)fuel bought through my club (Chicagoland Circle Cutters - a terrific group of people). It worked great. However, for some reason this year the club fuel order replaced the POWERMASTER fuel choice with WILDCAT fuel. The available options are Wildcat Premium (16% oil, 80% syn and 20% castor) or Wildcat Premium Xtra (18% oil, 80% syn and 20% castor). I am assumung the Wildcat Premium Xtra would be the better choice for the OS .35/.40 FPs. Am I correct or would I still need to manually add more castor to this fuel? Thanks in advance for your comments or advice.
DennisV

Dennis,

I use the Wildcat "Ducted Fan" fuel. It's 23% oil (75% synthetic/25% castor) and 10% nitro in my OS35FP (and other other engines too). Works great. My LHS carries it, so that's nice and the price is decent. The quality has been consistent and I haven't had a problem since I started using it about a year and a half ago.

FWIW

I also saw that "Ducted Fan" fuel and was tempted to buy some. What I'm running right now (in my two Double Star non-BB engines) is a 50/50 blend of Sig 5/25 all castor and Powermaster 10/18 all synthetic (the green stuff). I'm doing this mostly because I bought a case of the Sig all-castor out of ignorance last year and couldn't figure out any other way to use it up. But anyway it yields something like 7.5% nitro, 21.5% oil (give or take) which seems to work out fine, I get good runs.

Dave

If you are "stuck" with using what they have there, then I would suggest getting the 16% oil fuel and adding enough castor to bring it up to about 22%. Right now you would have close to 13% synthetic and less than 3% castor.

We are running 22% in our engines at the moment, but even that would not be adequate for your iron piston Foxes. Here you need more oil and more castor.

Perhaps they switched to Wildcat because of price, availability, or some such. Let me recommend Rich's Brew the next time they order. This can be ordered custom blended to whatever and however you want it. If everyone in the club puts in their order ahead of time, each can get what he wants. And, then, perhaps, the club can order a bit "extra" of the popular blends to have some additional on hand for people who run out.

(Disclaimer: I have no interest in Rich's Brew and receive no monetary reward for plugging it on my site. I just use it and found that it is reasonable in price and works well.)

Too bad Sig 50/50 at 10% nitro (or 15%) isn't an option. This is a 20% oil fuel mix. I pour out 8 ounces of the fuel, and add a similar amount of pure castor. This gets the overall oil % at 25%, majority castor.

Both the old "iron" engines and the new ABC/ABN setups like, and survive on, this fuel mix.

However, for some reason this year
>the club fuel order replaced the POWERMASTER fuel choice
>with WILDCAT fuel.

Why in the world would they do that?????

Prior to last year, our club usually went in together on a fuel order with the RC club that shares our flying field (Ned Brown Woods). However, last year the RC club and our CL club didn't. The club approached several hobby shops and direct fuel suppliers and finally settled on POWERMASTER. However, there was a bit of a problem with the club's order when it arrived in that it appeared that many of the gallon cans were under filled. The club complained and POWERMASTER sent extra fuel to make up for the apparent short fills. This left a bad taste so this year when the RC club again approached the club for a combined fuel order our club agreed but was now locked into their fuel choices (COOL POWER, OMEGA, or WILDCAT in various nitro %'s).
The OMEGA has a lower oil content (16% vs 18%) than the WILDCAT Premium Xtra but a greater net amount of castor oil (30% vs 20%).
The OMEGA numbers are: 30% of 16% = 5.95 oz castor per gallon.
The WILDCAT Prem Xtra numbers are: 20% of 18%=4.46 oz castor per gallon.
Theoretically the OMEGA would require less additional castor be added to reach 22% total oil but many people bad mouth OMEGA and praise WILDCAT. So there in lies my quandry. OMEGA or WILDCAT?
DennisV

Sounds like the CL club diddled the dog when they decided against Powermaster and throwing in with the RC guys, particularly given the options available.
Is it too late for you guys to just order your own fuel again from Powermaster? It's really good stuff. It is funny that some gallons were short but they did make it good.
A bitter pill is the rumored demise of the 5%/22% GMA blend, though 10%/22% is said to still be available as is 5%/29%. I'm thinking that the GMA 10%/22% half and half with Powermaster 5%/18% RC fuel with 5 oz of castor added will get me close to the 7.5%/22% I like to run, but with a little less than half castor.

>Sounds like the CL club diddled the dog when they decided
>against Powermaster and throwing in with the RC guys,
>particularly given the options available.
>Is it too late for you guys to just order your own fuel
>again from Powermaster? It's really good stuff.

I agree, cut the cord and do your own deal. RC guys usually only care about getting the cheapest fuels (generally). Powermaster is NOT the cheapest fuel, but it is very high quality.

My only experience with Powermaster customer service was above reproach. They simply sent me cheack for the full amount of the fuel I was not satisfied with. NO QUESTIONS ASKED! Try that with Wildcat, Omega, Rich's Brew, etc.

Brad,
I don't think that any of the club members had any difficulty
with PowerMaster's customer service, nor with the product--once it
was determined that the missing 10 oz. per gallon (in the 5% cans) or the missing 30 oz.(in the 10% cans) was a shortfill. There was a
real fear that the fuel might be missing 10 oz. or 30 oz., respectively, of lubricant.

True, it was great that they stood behind their product, replacing the missing fuel. Not all companies would do that. It would have been more impressive, however, if they had quality control in the first place and could have avoided shipping out short gallons.

There must be more than one hobby shop in Chicago? Maybe you should look in the yellow pages & start calling hobby shops until you find one that carries Powermaster fuel. There must be at least one. If they sell Powermaster but don't have the GMA stuff they can get it. Tell 'em you want to buy a case & I'll bet they'll get it for you. It will cost you a little more than the bulk stuff from the club but you already know your engines like it & unless you burn a whole lot of fuel it won't be that much more over a season.
Btw, I've had really good luck with it as well.

Yah. Vat Nils sed. He one smart cookie. Powermaster good stuff. Do no fo'get that they also make 15% x 22% and 15% x 29% GMA blends. Now if I can just get my lutefisk hooks onto some, yah! Steve

PS: I understand Powermaster's "case" is 6 gallons, vs. 4 gallons for most brands. Bummer....

>PS: I understand Powermaster's "case" is 6 gallons, vs. 4
>gallons for most brands. Bummer....

Personally, I think that is smart. The UPS HAZMAT surcharge is getting riddiculous, but the surcharge is the same for a 6 gallon case as it is for a 4 gallon case. The fuel comes out cheaper then when you buy it in cases of 6.

Of course, I just put in an order for ten cases from Rich's Brew to be shipped by motor freight, so, who cares? No HAZMAT fee.

>Of course, I just put in an order for ten cases from Rich's
>Brew to be shipped by motor freight, so, who cares? No
>HAZMAT fee.

Be sure to get the next higher nitro than you want. It has been my experience that Rich's needs 5% more nitro to equal Powermaster or Sig.

Kind of shoots down the price difference.

Of course, your mileage may vary... Good luck.

>
>>Of course, I just put in an order for ten cases from Rich's
>>Brew to be shipped by motor freight, so, who cares? No
>>HAZMAT fee.
>
>Be sure to get the next higher nitro than you want. It has
>been my experience that Rich's needs 5% more nitro to equal
>Powermaster or Sig.
>
>Kind of shoots down the price difference.
>
>Of course, your mileage may vary... Good luck.

Interesting you say that. We have been using Rich's Brew for several years now and three or four separate orders so have had a pretty good chance to see how it works out. I just ordered another 10 cases yesterday--8 cases of 5% and 2 of 10%. We have been running this stuff in the 35FP (all castor, 5%) Magnum 53 (all castor and 50-50 in the 5%) and in the 61 Pipe engine (mostly 5% but some 10% when it gets hot.) Matt has several times bought some SIG 5%, 10%, and even one gallon of 15% at the Nats when we thought we might not have brought enough fuel. Mike Pratt even gave us one of his gallons of SIG when he left early. (And it was much appreciated, Mike. We needed it.) We have not seen any significant difference in the run between the SIG 5% and the Rich's Brew 5% with switching back and forth between runs. And, yes, if there was a difference, we would notice it. The SIG does seem to run out a little faster. it uses more. Might be the difference between ucon and Klotz oil.

And I might note that while others were upping the ante to 10% and 15% at last year's Nats, Matt stayed with 5% Rich's Brew throughout, even though we had 10% with us. Rich's Brew uses good castor, ucon oil, and measures by volume, not weight. He will also do custom blends of whatever oil or nitro content you want. You are not stuck with "whatever they sell the most of and they aren't going to do the other any more."

Oh, yes, one year Randy Rich brought us 8 cases up to the Nats and we saved the motor freight. One year he had shipped it to us by motor freight and somehow had the wrong address. They brought it back to him and he had to reship it. Because we were not then able to get it in time for the Nats (and needed it) he shipped us an extra case by UPS at no charge. (I wonder if Powermaster, Wildcat, etc. will do that?)

No, I don't get any monetary consideration or other concessions on my pricing by saying this, but I will tell you about a product that I am satisfied with. (And will also tell you about those that I am not.) In all our experiences, Rich's Brew is an excellent fuel, of equal quality with the best we have tried, and at good prices. Some hobby shops will carry it. It is mostly mail order. Power Master is good. SIG is good. Taff's is good. (I missed a couple. Purposely.)

We have not seen any
>significant difference in the run between the SIG 5% and the
>Rich's Brew 5% with switching back and forth between runs.

This is exactly what Bill Bischoff said about Rich's Brew. In the the lower nitro (5% and 10%)it seems to be equal, in the 20% version however, I found that it seems to run short (I have used their YS 20/20 and 30/20 and even the Rich's 50/20 Magnum fuel). So, that being said, for regular stunt fuel I could be overstating a bit (or just plain wrong). Not the first time that has happened!

>And, yes, if there was a difference, we would notice it.

No doubt...

>The SIG does seem to run out a little faster. it uses more.
> Might be the difference between ucon and Klotz oil.

I found the same about Sig compared to every fuel I have ever run. It always uses more.

>And I might note that while others were upping the ante to
>10% and 15% at last year's Nats, Matt stayed with 5% Rich's
>Brew throughout, even though we had 10% with us.

I think that is a preference not a measure of fuel.

Rich's
>Brew uses good castor, ucon oil, and measures by volume, not
>weight. He will also do custom blends of whatever oil or
>nitro content you want. You are not stuck with "whatever
>they sell the most of and they aren't going to do the other
>any more."

I wish he would use the same nitro as Powermaster. Powermaster has the best IMHO. Sig is good too.

>Oh, yes, one year Randy Rich brought us 8 cases up to the
>Nats and we saved the motor freight.

I made sure to get enough fuel at the Nats to last most of the next year. To say the savings was significant would be a true understatement. It should be a no brainer for anyone driving to the Nats to buy their fuel there.

>No, I don't get any monetary consideration or other
>concessions on my pricing by saying this, but I will tell
>you about a product that I am satisfied with.

I mentioned Rich's Brew in my FM article. Their fuel ran very nice. I would not hesitate to recommend it, given the stated caveats. No one here in Dallas has really given it a chance, everyone sticks to the Sig becasue it always works. Even though it is a bugger to get...

>>And I might note that while others were upping the ante to
>>10% and 15% at last year's Nats, Matt stayed with 5% Rich's
>>Brew throughout, even though we had 10% with us.
>
>I think that is a preference not a measure of fuel.

I grant that, and didn't mean to imply anything else. I was just saying if his 5% wasn't 5%, we would have had to up the nitro. It is a matter of how you have your engine set up and how you wish it to behave. Matt did take out one small head shim (I think he was running 26 or 27 thousandths after that), But the deck height, head shims, venturi, pipe setting, prop you plan to use, all figure in the type of fuel (nitro content) you are going to need.

>
>>>And I might note that while others were upping the ante to
>>>10% and 15% at last year's Nats, Matt stayed with 5% Rich's
>>>Brew throughout, even though we had 10% with us.
>>
>>I think that is a preference not a measure of fuel.
>
>I grant that, and didn't mean to imply anything else. I was
>just saying if his 5% wasn't 5%, we would have had to up the
>nitro. It is a matter of how you have your engine set up
>and how you wish it to behave.

Going from one side of the state to the other is a lot different from going from one side of the *country* to another!

LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-03 AT 01:08 PM (CDT)
 
> Going from one side of the state to the other is a lot
>different from going from one side of the *country* to
>another!
>
> Brett

We keep bringing that up too. We went down, you guys went up. Same results!

This statement also lends credence to the statemnt that all advice should be followed with a little common sense. Using a given "recipe" for perfect engine runs from a guy halfway across the country can be a little unpredictable. I always try to tell people of this fact when I recommend a setup, and try to at least predict a path. Using this forum has really shown me that our setups are predictably different.

I hate when someone tells me something *won't* work or *shouldn't be tried* (except in the case of the clunk tank and Saitos, I do not bend on that one). Our engine run requirements are so precise it often puzzles me that one would try to copy someone else without a little cross referencing to their own location. Heat and elevation play havoc with the numbers...

No one here in Dallas has really given it a
>chance, everyone sticks to the Sig becasue it always works.
>Even though it is a bugger to get...

I have burned many many gallons of Rich's Brew. It jsut didnt perform like the JBK I used to use. I was at the 94 Nats and JBK was there and we did a stright up comaprisson right there at the circle. My FP never ran better. I ran JBK from then on in all my motors up through the OPS and in my first PA 61. Then JBK gets outed by the growing HAZMAT. Others are running Taffs and RedMax I go back and try some Rich's for a while it runs nice it works. Then I get a deal from Hall's for SIG fuel. My motors ran better on that noticably. So I stick with what works. I like SIG it is good stuff. If had to use Rich's I would. I also ran several gallons Powermaster GMA 5 and 10 blend. It was very predictable and ran well. In the major heat though SIG comes through the strongest for me.

I have given it a chance for me anyway. It is a very predictable fuel, cheap too.

Dennis,

Having, also, been one who purchased the under-filled, over-priced cans of fuel, which we received after Memorial Day,I have become very careful of whom I trust for fuel. Last year's difficulties were, when you think about it, probably explainable by some of the personalities involved.

However, there are some solutions to your fuel problem:

Long-term Solution: Purchase Rich's Brew in bulk. This fuel
still has an excellent reputation, price and is also
formulated in the 5% Nitro, 11% Castor, 11% Synthetic.
(Unfortunately, I have sufficient fuel for this season and
can't bump up your purchase amount should you order now.)

Short-term Solution: I'll carry a quart of Castor in the trunk
of the Merc. for you. Just replace it when you can. When
you buy the cheapo RC fuel from the LHS, you can inquire
about their ordering good stuff. If you come across as a
customer and all around good guy, you might have some luck.
I really don't have any first hand knowledge that our LHS's
cannot procure the good stuff. You also might wish to bring
some Sig fuel back from Montezuma for the remainder of the season.

Lots of great information and assistance here on SSW as usual. Looks like I have some thinking to do before buying my fuel for this year. Many thanks to all you fine gentlemen who responded to my plea for help.
DennisV

Am I correct or would I still need to manually add more
>castor to this fuel? Thanks in advance for your comments or
>advice.

One thing to consider - it's a lot easier to add oil than to take it out! Most engine made in the last 25 years don't need and run better with oil contents in the 18-20% range and a significant amount of it synthetic.

LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-03 AT 04:01 PM (CDT)
 
I was talking with RO once and he said if Wildcat is what they have try it. Brett is right 18-20% is generally what the newer engines really like. 18% oil Wildcat at 10% nitro on an FP should run fine.

I contacted Powermaster via e-mail and this was their response
to available fuels (All Castor) in the GMA lineup

"We no longer make the GMA 15% Nitro Content Fuels."

GMA 5/29 ( 5% Nitro 29% Oil, All Castor )

GMA 10/29 ( 10% Nitro 29% Oil, All Castor )

Thank You,
Shirley Hammond

I ran into Wildcat, and I am very pleased with the results.

I use whatever I can get around here, but the 15% nitro with 18% all synth oil plus 100 cc per liter does the job.

It might sound crazy, but some time ago I was using (forced by the circumstances) a homemade brew, 25% castor 75% methanol, no nitro.

When I got the Wildcat 15% nitro 18% synth plus castor, the flight time literally doubleled!!

I love that stuff!

Does anybody use Fox fuels? I've used Superfuel (5% nitro/29% castor), Duke's Fuel (10% nitro/20% castor) and Gold Star (5% nitro/20% castor) for sport flying with various engines, and they seem to work fine. I've mixed them to get various nitro/castor blends. The all-castor (Baker's) burns a bit messy but supposedly withstands higher temps better, adding protection in case of an over lean run. And that wonderful aroma brings back delirious memories from the 60s and 70s....

I used to run Missile Mist all the time, since John Lowry would sell it out of the Fox van for very reasonable prices at the Nats. I didn't burn nearly as much fuel as some of the folks here, though.