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Hot plug, cold plug

Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 15 of 15 known posts recovered

Mark Boesen · May 28, 2003 11:19 AM

#0 source
Somebody please tell me again...The hotter the plug, the richer the needle for the same RPM (?) I'm happy with my LA46 set up (11X6 22%oil) but kinda wanted a little earlier break, it would break sometimes towards the top or sometimes not at all. Installed a Fireball (hot) in my LA46, had been running a Thunderbolt R/C plug, had to turn needle 1/2 in to get same 7800-8000 rpm. Cardinal profile 51oz. 67'x018, 5.3-5.35 laps. Also I noticed (due to leaner setting?) that it broke a little earlier. Would this mean that the Thunderbolt is a little hotter, or that a cooler plug can change the break, or that anything will work right once?
I also tried a .295 venturi inleu of a .285 to try to get a earlier break, this was before with the Thunderbolt plug, thinking a larger venturi would give me a earlier break, tons of 4 cycle power, no break and 5 min on 4.5 oz. uniflo and no room or desire for larger tank.

Mark

Randy Ryan · May 28, 2003 11:53 AM

#1 source
Come on, somebody say something, I want to know about this too!

Randy Ryan
AMA 8500
SAM 36
I fly 'em all and love it!

Fred Krueger · May 28, 2003 01:15 PM

#2 source
Mark,

I just checked with my plug supplier (Merlin). Your 1st question

>Somebody please tell me again...The hotter the plug, the
>richer the needle for the same RPM (?)

is correct. The Fireball is a colder plug. In order to get the same RPM, you had to lean it out. It was not igniting the richer mixture as well as the Thunderbolt.

Last season Gerry Meyer borrowed a LA46 from Alan Hahn and we helped him set it up. We had the same experience with the larger venturi plus a tongue muffler. Tons of 4-cycle power (no break) at the expense of fuel consumption. We ended up with a smaller venturi (forgot size) a stock muffler (more backpressure) and 5% Nitro. It turned a 12 x 5 Graupner (cut down to 11.5 or 11) in a nice 4-2 break on about 4 oz of fuel. Ask Gerry Meyer for the exact prop size and fuel consumption. I also gave him a Merlin 'hot' plug to run in it.

Will you be at the Milwaukee contest on Father's Day? I will have a supply of plugs along. The ones I'm running are about the hottest I've found for my Fox35ABC. Plus I'll have some 4-stroke plugs, which seem to run well in some Schnuerle ported engines. I'll give you a couple to try.

Fred

Too many airplanes - too little time.

jaco · May 28, 2003 04:01 PM

#3 source
I was reading the July issue of Flying Models magazine and on page 6, Dean Pappas answers a readers question on picking a glow plug. The information Dean provides is very useful. You might want to check it out.

Paul

Mark Boesen · May 28, 2003 11:22 PM

#4 source

But...Why would a colder plug give you a earlier break? Because of the leaner needle?

If its breaking at 10:00 area, say on a loop, wouldn't that give you more power then a engine with a richer needle that hardly breaks?

-Mark

SRiese5283 · May 28, 2003 11:42 PM

#5 source
Add one 10000th head gasket go to 20% all castor 5% Nitro. with a 11.5x4 apc prop set it at 10300 rpm's and have fun

Scott

ps shorten lines by 18-24"

Scott Riese

Ted Fancher · May 29, 2003 12:02 AM

#6 source
Mark,

Here's the way I like to think about plug heat.

Along with other variables, (specifically: compression ratio, nitro content and (if appropriate) pipe length) plug heat controls the ignition timing of the engine. A hotter plug, more nitro, higher compression or shorter pipe (within the tuning range of the pipe) all will "ADVANCE" the timing or cause the mixture to burn earlier in the compression cycle. The reverse is obviously true.

This is just like advancing or retarding the timing on your car. Within reason, advancing the timing will increase power and retarding it will decrease it. Beyond a certain range, of course, bad things happen in either direction. retard it too much and ignition won't take place. Advance it too much and ignition starts too soon and knocking and extreme heat build up result...and, of course, power is shot.

Specifically, I tune the various components so that I get no loss of RPM when the battery is removed. You've probably noticed that, if the revs drop when the battery is removed, you can regain the desired RPM by leaning out the mixture. What you get then is the same revs at a leaner mixture and a greater tendency to switch to two stroke ops. Using a hotter plug, more nitro or higher compression (either by reducing head shims or, if pipe equipped, shortening the pipe to increase the rebound wave inducted into the combustion chamber) will allow the same RPM to be maintained at a richer mixture with less tendency to break. An additional bonus is that torque and power will be greater as well.

So, the answer to your question is; yes, a likely result of a hotter plug will be a later break as long as the additional heat doesn't advance the ignition timing excessively.

Like all else in stunt, it is a delicate balancing act and will change as atmospheric conditions change. Don't get put off by that, however, once the proper plug is selected any changes necessary to optimize engine run for different atmospheric conditions is usually accomplished by juggling the nitro content and/or the head shim.

Easier yet, if you're sport flying tune your set-up so you get no loss in revs when the battery is removed and don't worry about the fine tuning unless the rev loss shows up unexpectedly.

Ted Fancher

p.s. Keep the bees out of the venturi regardless of the plug heat range!!!

Iskandar Taib · May 29, 2003 12:15 AM

#7 source
I used to think that the plug heat range is based on the path heat takes along the center post, through the insulator, into the engine. In other words, the geometry and dimensions of the plug's construction. This is the definition of "heat" for spark plugs, the definition you'll find in most textbooks. But I was informed by Al Kelly that the actual alloy used in glowplug elements has a lot to do with it. According to him, cold plugs (used with hot nitro fuels) have some percentage of tungsten mixed in. The tungsten makes the coil sturdier at high temperature (important in a plug to be used with hot nitro fuels) but also makes it less catalytic. Conversely, the better RC plugs are those that can remain hot during idle, and these have some amount of irridium and/or rhodium in the element (which makes the elements more expensive). Don't know how true all this is, but..

Mark Boesen · May 29, 2003 05:55 PM

#8 source
This all started when I was playing with larger a larger venturi, to try for a earlier break. I've used Merlin plugs, they seem very much like the Thunderbolt in performance. But the coil wire looks thicker then the Swanson or Thunderbolt. I wonder if this is due to the irridium or rhodium or whatever as I thought the thinner the wire the hotter the plug?

Mark

Iskandar Taib · May 29, 2003 08:35 PM

#9 source
THickness of wire might have something to do with it, but I remember seeing a Japanese (Enya? OS?) plug in a hobby shop once that had a "hot" rating that had a HUGE element. THe package said it was supposed to use 3 volts for starting. THis was back in the early 70s.

N42222 · May 30, 2003 12:22 AM

#10 source
I may have missed something, but how did that bee (looked like a wasp to me) get through the prop to get into the venturi?

Dale Gleason

ted fancher · May 30, 2003 08:53 AM

#11 source
>I may have missed something, but how did that bee (looked
>like a wasp to me) get through the prop to get into the
>venturi?

According to reports from informed sources who must remain anonymous, the villainous creature was secreted by Paul Walker's special CIA division in a secure location somewhere aft of the drive washer and forward of the uniflow exit, camouflaged by a film of nine year old castor residue and dust bunnies. Upon a precisely timed, laser guided signal, since determined to have emanated from the vicinity of P.W.'s toolbox/beeHQ, said special agent, utilizing the latest in miniaturized pitons, crampons and spitoons, stealthily advanced up (remember the Final Edition was inverted at the time of the attack) the backplate, around the cyliner walls, carefully avoiding the blistering inferno of the pulse pounding P.A. .61 header and, upon reaching the summit of Mount Venturi, through him/herself into the abyss...a suicide terrorist's ultimate fantasy.

Alas, the last laugh was mine. Instantly recognizing the nefarious act for what it was--an insane attempt to prevent your hero from displacing P.W. from atop the heap--I alertly stuffed the valiant war bird to a safe but ignomineously inverted touchdown amid the soft embrace of the clover carressing the edge of the runway. Modest damage ensued but, although the battle was lost, the war is yet to be won. The Final Edition lives on! Woebetide any further would be assaulters from the nether regions of the Northwest. A similar fate awaits them and their ultimate demise is not a matter of if...only of when!

Or something like that.

Ted

Crist_Rigotti · May 30, 2003 09:29 AM

#12 source
Ted,
Have you been doping with the windows closed again? LOL
Some people definately have the "knack".

Crist Rigotti
"A driver trying to be a pilot"

Ted Fancher · May 30, 2003 10:31 AM

#13 source
>Ted,
>Have you been doping with the windows closed again? LOL
>Some people definately have the "knack".
>
>Crist Rigotti
>"A driver trying to be a pilot"

Well, no, not exactly. There is, however, an unrelenting bouquet of squashed butyrate grapes lingering in the vicinity of the late lamented Nobler smushing.

Think that might be the culprit?

Ted

Crist_Rigotti · May 30, 2003 11:25 AM

#14 source
LOL.

Crist Rigotti
"A driver trying to be a pilot"