Guillows Trainer series

Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 20 of 20 known posts recovered

Jake · Jun 29, 2003 07:04 AM

I recently picked up a complete set (I,II,III) of these kits. Designed by the great Lou Andrews, I always thought they were a good value for the money and a good design for a balsa trainer. Anybody else have any fond memories of these old dogs?

John

"It'll probably feel real good again, once it quits hurting".

LNeumann · Jun 29, 2003 08:29 AM

#1 source

Actually I did my first loop(s) with a II and a McCoy .09. I think the plane was heavier than most Noblers and it just barely went around taking it almost to the top of the circle to get clearance. Not good for learning anything precision, but I was able to loop and go inverted, so it got me on my way.

What engine size kits do you have, Jake? They came in several flavors as I recall.

Leonard Neumann

Jake · Jun 29, 2003 09:53 AM

#3 source

LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-03 AT 09:56 AM (CDT)

>Actually I did my first loop(s) with a II and a McCoy .09.
>I think the plane was heavier than most Noblers and it just
>barely went around taking it almost to the top of the circle
>to get clearance. Not good for learning anything precision,
>but I was able to loop and go inverted, so it got me on my
>way.
>
>What engine size kits do you have, Jake? They came in
>several flavors as I recall.

They did indeed.

Trainer I was 24" span- for .049 to .09. Plans show beam and radial mount options. Pictured are a Cox Babe Bee and a Fox .10.

Trainer II was 30" span, for .14 to .19, plans show a Torp. 19 Green Head. The old hobby shop price sticker on the box says $4.50

Trainer III was 36" span, for .19 to.36, interestingly, the plans (and box cover art) show a Fox .25 (the old 3-screw case one). Price sticker says $7.50

There are lists of alternate motors on the plans. The plans are 4/5ths full size- includes a pretty decent set of instructions as well as how to make initial flights.
I haven't had one of these since 1967 or so. My Trainer III had a McCoy .35 redhead on it- probably not the ideal combo. It was amazingly rugged- I crashed it (on dirt) several times with no apparent damage. One of the things I most recall about it was the absolutely horrid vibration- it traveled all the way to the handle. Never could sort this out- may have just been this particular motor.
I have seen guys use these for everything thing from Carrier trainers to converting the III to a pulse jet trainer.
There is also an older "Trixter Trainer" that came in a couple sizes (A-B and a C class I THINK) which is different than these.
Fun models.

John

"It'll probably feel real good again, once it quits hurting".

Randy · Jun 30, 2003 10:20 AM

#14 source

Hey, I learned to fly on a Guillow Trainer III with Greenhead Torp 35. Right there at Whittier Narrows. It was Red with a White canopy and I remember it well. It was built by my uncle and me and my cousin learned to fly on it. The thing was very durable. Of course, that may have had something to do with it being completely fiberglassed.

Randy Powell

Jerry Raimo · Jun 30, 2003 07:48 PM

#19 source

I did my first Loops with a profile number III. Had a McCoy 35 on it.

I flew profile carrier with a number II. Had a Rear Rotor Super Tigre 40 on it. Turned 18 second high speed with a 9-7 prop. I was in high school at the time. Probably 1968. Several members of the GSCB were also flying the profile number 2 or the rat racer in carrier at that time.

The Kiwi · Jun 29, 2003 08:45 AM

#2 source

It was summer, 1950, and I was at odds for enough to do staying with my grandparents here in this city, not yet being acquainted with many age-mates here. I found the Jefferson Hobby Shop's "branch store" inside the mini-mall within a large Sommers Drug Store. Joe Brown worked there and was sympathetic to my story of frustration with old, used sparkies, and getting no assistance from anyone experienced.

He told me where to meet him the next Sunday afternoon, and I rode my cousin's bike over there. Joe brought a Guillow's III along, with a sweet-running Torp 29, pre-GH, mounted on it. When I got there, he and his daughters were the only ones there, and he was already busy unrolling lines.

Instead of dual-controlling the first flight, he took me at my word for having made a dozen or more half-to 3/4 lap "flights" that all ended without wrecks, but a dead engine (I didn't know enough to advance the spark after starting, before taking off). Joe showed me the starting drill for a glow engine, then suggested I start this one myself. Following his routine, it started quickly, and I ran for the handle.

The G-III would hardly do more than climb at a 10-15 degree angle with full control, it was definitely nose-heavy. I was having no trouble keeping it level; Joe signalled repeatedly to gain height before I caught on. We hadn't discussed much about landing or even mentioned the possibility of dizziness, and he ran out to sit by my feet.

The first thing he said after getting there was to walk around, not to pivot on my heels. That was easy enough - and I was so excited I have no recollection of getting dizzy at all that day. He didn't ask if I was, and since it had only an ounce and a half tank on it, the flights were short. He flew his own (Circus King or something similar), did a few loops and wingovers, not much of any fancy stuff, let his biggest girl (about five) fly the G-III once in a dual-control flight, and some other folks arrived to join us.

I got to fly his plane three times, met several other youngsters my own age who were crazy about CL, and one of them told me about a club they were starting up. Two of those kids had G-III's of their own; both shiwed some evidence of crashes and adolescent-skill repairs (Joe's G-III may have repaired some, but more skillfully, I never did notice it looking beat-up while I knew him).

My own G-III was ready in about a week, but I was sent to the garage to use a folding table out there, covered with newspapers, to assemble and paint it (and sent back out there to leave it while the nitrate dope gassed off and whatever was in thge fuel proofer did the same).

I flew it most every Sunday afternoon, at least a couple of times, for another two weekends before getting bored with level flight, when I traded it for a kit for something else from the hobby shop. It wasn't a Circus King, Ringmaster, or Super Clown. It had a box fuselage and a mid-size wing about 36-38" - it was probably a Brave, but I cannot recall. I pretty well destroyed it on its first flight, and then was temporarily discouraged, stayed away from the flying site until I went back to California.

Ten years later, I had another, also a G-III, but with a Fox 19 on it, I let dozens of people fly it, mostly youngsters. It was crashed so often, it should've had a score sheet attached to keep track. I did have to redo the motor crutch a couple of times before the rest of it wore out completely.

.
Kiwi

faif2d · Jun 29, 2003 10:10 AM

#4 source

Ah yes the trainer II with a K&B .29 green head. That was my first plane with yellow cub dope. The engine was broken in by running it till it quit freezing up. I do not remember the first flights whether the friend of my dads did dual control or not. Did my first loop with the plane. Kind of like a early rat racer! Wore the K&B out on a much repared Firecat. Have one of the kits in the shop and the K&B, just have to put the set together some day.

I used to like painting with dope but now I can't remember why. Steve Fauble

Tony G · Jun 30, 2003 04:08 AM

#11 source

LAST EDITED ON Jun-30-03 AT 04:18 AM (CDT)

>Ah yes the trainer II with a K&B .29 green head. That was
>my first plane with yellow cub dope. The engine was broken
>in by running it till it quit freezing up. I do not remember
>the first flights whether the friend of my dads did dual
>control or not. Did my first loop with the plane. Kind of
>like a early rat racer! Wore the K&B out on a much repared
>Firecat. Have one of the kits in the shop and the K&B, just
>have to put the set together some day.

Ah...yes...around 1956...my father's(I'd been flying since 1950) trainer.
..it was a Trainer II with an OS Max I and a 2 ounce Rectank
It had no problems with line tension.. I flew it off the launch for
him and slipped the Ezjust into his hand..Dad finished the flight and
then rested about 15 min to get over his dizziness. He flew solo
the next few flights.He was tired and wanted me to try it
..I flew it through wingovers, big open lazy eights and big outsides and insides
and on my last flight ran out of fuel,inverted, forgetting about
the fuel pickup location on a Perfect rectangular tank...with
everything now sticking out on the bottom..fin,tank and engine
cylinder, it cartwheeled several times and came to a smoldering halt
Nothing was broken and we went home. the model never broke, and was
later given to a new modeler; I got the engine when my Dad gave up C/l
about a year later and it went into a bunch of combat models, including 3 Firecats...
Yeh...I picked up a Trainer I on Ebay recently, and I am keeping
an eye out for a Trainer II..at the right price...

TigreST · Jun 29, 2003 10:10 AM

#5 source

I've been meaning to ask a similar question myself about a model my brother and I flew as teenagers, circa 1970's. It was purchased from a High School senior named Tim Copely (who would go on to be famous for being run over by a D-8 Cat bulldozer and live, but that's another story) for $20.00.

It was a large solid balsa model that he (Tim) had built I think. Painted Testors Black all over. The wing was of solid wood construction but of asymmetric airfoil design, with a non-moving flap added at the trailing edge. The vert stab/elev were in keeping with typical profile designs like the Ringmaster in that the elevator hung off the back end of the model as a single piece. The rudder was of single piece construction and stood very tall and proud of the top of the fuselage plank. The motor mount (crutch?) was of a hardwood (pine?) material in the shape of a "H" that notched into the front end of the fuselage. The motor mounted in a upright position. We flew this beast with a McCoy Series 21-35 (when we could get it started) and it was great for flight training. Not sure of wing span but it was big,..maybe bigger then the Ringmaster,..hmmm maybe 48"inches? Strongest pull on the lines we'd ever felt. With the engine out it had a rather amazing glide. Landings were a treat and something to behold. I think we looped it but did not get to inverted at all as none of use could fly inverted at that time. (I now wonder about the asymmetrical airfoil wing as related to inverted flight.) Attached is a MS-Paint graphic of what I kinda remember the "Trainer" (as we called it) to be. Is this in fact the same model as of you speak?

Tony

Jake · Jun 29, 2003 10:34 AM

#6 source

LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-03 AT 10:40 AM (CDT)

>
>
> I've been meaning to ask a similar question myself
>about a model my brother and I flew as teenagers, circa
>1970's. It was purchased from a High School senior named
>Tim Copely (who would go on to be famous for being run over
>by a D-8 Cat bulldozer and live, but that's another story)
>for $20.00.
>
> It was a large solid balsa model that he (Tim) had built I
>think. Painted Testors Black all over. The wing was of
>solid wood construction but of asymmetric airfoil design,
>with a non-moving flap added at the trailing edge. The vert
>stab/elev were in keeping with typical profile designs like
>the Ringmaster in that the elevator hung off the back end of
>the model as a single piece. The rudder was of single piece
>construction and stood very tall and proud of the top of the
>fuselage plank. The motor mount (crutch?) was of a hardwood
>(pine?) material in the shape of a "H" that notched into the
>front end of the fuselage. The motor mounted in a upright
>position. We flew this beast with a McCoy Series 21-35
>(when we could get it started) and it was great for flight
>training. Not sure of wing span but it was big,..maybe
>bigger then the Ringmaster,..hmmm maybe 48"inches?
>Strongest pull on the lines we'd ever felt. With the
>engine out it had a rather amazing glide. Landings were a
>treat and something to behold. I think we looped it but did
>not get to inverted at all as none of use could fly inverted
>at that time. (I now wonder about the asymmetrical airfoil
>wing as related to inverted flight.) Attached is a MS-Paint
>graphic of what I kinda remember the "Trainer" (as we called
>it) to be. Is this in fact the same model as of you speak?
>
>Tony

That's pretty close to it. If you shorten the nose and run the motor mount back under the wing LE, add a balsa canopy and dorsal fin to the rudder, it would look a lot like that. I have photo ads in some of the old mags, but no scanner- maybe somebody who has both can post a picture.
On the flat bottom airfoil- it was probably easier for the factory to machine. Plus there were designers that felt that a flat bottom airfoil was better for a basic trainer as it tends to climb going into the wind, and dive going out. It was thought this helped teach you control faster, as you had to work more at it to keep it straight and level all the time, at least that is what I have been told.
Most all the old all balsa trainers, like the Testors Freshman, Monarch series, Flite Streak Trainer, etc. were like this.

John

"It'll probably feel real good again, once it quits hurting".

TigreST · Jun 29, 2003 10:46 AM

#7 source

John,
Yes more grey cells firing here. Agree wing and motor mount had almost no space between. Fellow flying bud had one with the canopy and fin fillet. I never knew what it was like in the box as we bought it as built. Ugly?,...well yes. Fun?... that too for a newbie flyer.

Tony

Ty Marcucci · Jun 29, 2003 12:21 PM

#8 source

I recently picked up a kit of the III and duplicated it. Not much smaller than the Streak Trainer. I get a kick of how the fuselage, motor crutch, etc all go toghether and trap the landing gear wire. I have flown mine twice with a Fox .19 on it. The Streak Trainer is also a duplicate of a kit and it has a Fox .15 on it. Holley Shipp has it down it Birmingham, AL and is going to use it to learn inverted flight. Sure can't hurt the thing.

Jake · Jun 29, 2003 01:21 PM

#9 source

LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-03 AT 01:28 PM (CDT)

They are pretty darn tough. It sometimes amazes me at how many people used these to learn with either as their first airplane, or as part of their early learning curve. I recall reading that no less a C/L personality as the redoubtable Bob Hunt learned to fly on a Trainer III. Most people who used them seem to have succeeded, a lot of times all on their own- that's pretty impressive in and of itself.
When I was looking for a Trainer III kit a couple years back, someone told me there was one on eB*y. I bid on it and was outbid at the end by another guy for $1. I e-mailed the guy just out of curiosity to see what he was going to do with the kit- thought maybe I could buy it off him if he was just a collector. He answered (nice fellow by the by) that he was going to build it (and a Trainer II kit) to replace his old one(s). He had been using it as a club basic trainer for over 40 years, and it was finally worn out to the point he had to retire it. It had trined more newbies than he could even remember. After he told me this, I told him I was glad he had gotten it and was putting it to good use.
On the Streak Trainer, the last one I had I put a Cox Medallion .15 in. I was surprised how fast it was- the 52' lines I tried the first time were too short- it was almost like flying a Quickie rat!
That is also a rugged airplane and a first class trainer.

john

"It'll probably feel real good again, once it quits hurting".

Currell · Jun 29, 2003 06:53 PM

#10 source

A friend in High School learned how to fly off a Guillow's III, after crashing a series of already built full fuse jobs (a Berkeley P-40 comes particularly painfully to mine). I learned on a Sterling P-40 with an Enya .19 Teardrop about the same time.

He eventually drilled large holes in that thick solid wing, covered them with Silkspan, and flew it as a Rat Racer!

Currell

Alan Resinger · Jun 30, 2003 07:51 AM

#12 source

I remember the trainer well. The owner of the LHS had one that he let all the newcomers fly. One fellow who was determined to learn to stunt, took one and added half ribs to the bottom of the wing and covered it with silkspan to make a symetrical wing. The thing weighed a ton and I don't remember ever seeing it fly. I know that I learned to stunt a lot faster than he did and I taught myself on a Nobler.
I'd like to draw up some plans for the trainer to make it available to clubs that introduce lots of newcomers to CL. It would be simple to make the wing built-up but still rugged enough.

Jake · Jun 30, 2003 05:53 PM

#17 source

If you want copies of the kit plans, I can run them off for you.

John

"It'll probably feel real good again, once it quits hurting".

Ty Marcucci · Jun 30, 2003 10:15 AM

#13 source

Some to think of it, aren't these the trainers the Cholla Choppers in Tucson had at the last VSC, painted blue and yellow?? There they sat, just waiting for some one to come up and be introduced to the joys of flying CL.

kdheath · Jun 30, 2003 01:59 PM

#15 source

Yep, Trainer II with a McCoy 19 RH. Actually two of them. The first had so much Ambroid from repairs that it would barely stagger into the air. The second was a disappointment, since I was already flying a Ringmaster and Buster by then. Great trainer. I put many miles on mine in the days when the cops and neighbors came and watched instead of calling the PD, FBI, CIA, TSA, Interpol and Mother Goose every time a model motor fired up.....

Pete Munroe · Jun 30, 2003 02:41 PM

#16 source

The Guillows III was my first large and workable c/l model.

Probably built it summer of 63 and flew at Kirkwood Park and Buder Park outside of St. Louis.

Mine was dark green with a "$5 buck" McCoy 19...we always flew with the engines running too slow "so they wouldn't go too fast"...crash!!!...had a terrible time...could never hook up with any experienced fliers.

Eventaully, it was so heavy from repairs I put a Fox 36X on it just to use the new engine.

The plane was easy to build, and the McCoy ran great...still have the 19 and the 36X.

First time I saw the Ukie I thought of the Guillows...wonder what the difference in weight is.

Pete

Swordsman18 · Jun 30, 2003 06:10 PM

#18 source

I put many miles on mine in
>the days when the cops and neighbors came and watched
>instead of calling the PD, FBI, CIA, TSA, Interpol and
>Mother Goose every time a model motor fired up.....

Boy I hear that! As Dave Thornburg said in his book "Do You Speak Model Airplane?" there was a time when model airplanes weren't a nusance. They were *interesting*.

*sigh*

Andrew Tomasch