What is this glow plug used for ?

I do know this glow plug is a Fox r/c long plug, but what purpose does this small tab on the bottom serve for? Is this a idle bar?
Thanks.

Yup, that be the idle bar.

Yup.. that's the idle bar. People used to say it "stored" heat to keep the element hot, but these days people say that it shields the element from droplets of oil or fuel.

Anyone remember those weird plugs from the 70s that had a "idle bar" that ran up the middle of the coil? It supposedly worked on the storing heat principle. I remember they were British.

LAST EDITED ON Jul-07-03 AT 10:19 PM (CDT)
 
That is indeed an idle bar. It helps shield the element from the fuel charge's cooling influence, making it "hotter". I personally would loan a Fox plug to my competitor, if I really wanted to win very badly. Kinda like swiping the handle off the end of the guy's lines, while he starts the engine. Opinions vary. Steve

>That is indeed an idle bar. It helps shield the element from
>the fuel charge's cooling influence, making it "hotter". I
>personally would loan a Fox plug to my competitor, if I
>really wanted to win very badly. Kinda like swiping the
>handle off the end of the guy's lines, while he starts the
>engine. Opinions vary. Steve

It is interesting that you say that because if you want to loan one our way we will take it. I think it is like anything else, but We have had better service with Fox plugs than any we have tried. Others like Thunderbolt. Others like... That's why there are choices. But Matt is currently running Fox RC longs in both his engines.

Not an idle bar, it's a mudder bar.

As in, if that sucker ever comes off a McCoy plug, it's a mudder to your engine.

The ones on the Fox engines stay on. The ones with the welded on idle bars are the ones to be wary about. On some Russian plugs I bought once, you could pry them off with a small screwdriver.

Len,

I am sorry, but your side of this discussion is simply not defensible. We can agree to disagree about a great many things in CL Stunt, from rules to finishes to ARFs to whether or not Helmick is a whack job (he is, albeit the good kind) to what some of Cunningham's dreams really mean.

But Fox plugs?! In a CL Stunt motor!!!??? Give it up, we ain't goin' for any more fairy tales.

On a more serious note, there must be, has to be, something different and/or slightly unusual--at the least!--about your setups in order for the Fox plugs to work well. Lots of squeeze? Extra hit of pop? On-board battery for power to the plug? Fox plug bodies rewired with better material?

In all sorts of hobby activities, many has been the time when I instantly improved the handling and running qualities of engines simply by replacing a Fox plug with something like a KB-1L. Never once have I seen an improvement when installing a Fox plug. Fact.

Given more time to think about this, there was one time in all my hobby activities where use of a Fox plug seemed to make sense. My family and I had begun to race 1/8-scale RC cars. While we were using K&B 21s, a few were still racing McCoy-kitted Veco 19s. One of these was Greg Sheehan, an infuriatingly smooth and consistent driver who simply did not maintain his equipment. He preferred Fox plugs because--get this and believe it, as it's true!--he could race an entire season on just two plugs.

The kicker, and ultimately the reason I stuck with KB-1Ls, was that although Gregg's Fox plugs lasted incredibly in this harsh environment, they would slowly, slowly go bad. By the time he installed a new plug all his carb settings were out in the weeds. We had to change plugs far more frequently, but the K&B plugs were like a three-position light switch: They either worked or they didn't or they were totally blown. We learned to change plugs before messing with the carb, soon had reliability exceeding that of Greg, much better performance as well.

I've run Fos 2-volt longs, both standard and idlebar, in Fox 35's, K&B 4011's, and McCoy 35's and 19's, in stunt airplanes for many years. I'm running one now in a de-dieselized Tower 40. I'm a happy camper.

Sounds like the Ford or Chevy argument to me. Personally, I will take a Honda..........................TD

Dan: When the weather starts to get chilly here in Michigan (Sep?), the Fox plugs assist in starting better vs. the Fireball Hots, which I normally use in more temperate weather.

So there is one case where substituting a Fox made an improvement.

Ah, but do you know how good it really could be? THAT is the question. Get thee down to the LHS and get a Zinger Long Idle Bar. If you are running an ABC, ball bearing engine, you might also try the 4cycle version.

Dirt, thanks for your support. I found out 30+ years ago that the O&R produced glowplugs were/are the ones to use, IMHO. That includes K&B's, Thunderbolts and Zingers. Does McCoy make their own, or are they also O&R produced? Steve

Steve,

You are most welcome. You support CL modeling in the NW and you do so to a high standard. The least I can do is refer to you as a whack job.

McCoy plugs are also from O&R. Agree with your comments as to not being overly concerned about the brand name on the packaging, just as long as the plugs were produced at O&R.

It is my understanding the Thunderbolt plugs are produced by O&R as well.

Incidentally, for those of you looking for McCoy plugs, best keep track of stock numbers for your favorites. There are (were?) quite a number of different plugs from McCoy, and I can assure you that Tower does not stock them all. Not even close.

We used to indulge in some devious measures when it came time to order several hundred plugs from McCoy. Everytime we let Rush do the ordering he ordered a number which worked but was regarded as being a little "fiddly," where the other choice worked nearly the same and was a lot more tolerant to fuel and setup variables.

There may be significant differences between plugs made by Ohlsson and sold under different brands. After all, McCoy itself offered 3 or 4 different types of plug. The plugs are probably made to specs specified by the vendor, so Thunderbolt plugs may not be the same as K&B 1Bs.

>There may be significant differences between plugs made by
>Ohlsson and sold under different brands. After all, McCoy
>itself offered 3 or 4 different types of plug. The plugs are
>probably made to specs specified by the vendor, so
>Thunderbolt plugs may not be the same as K&B 1Bs.

Very true, Iskandar. There appear to be about 6-10 different McCoy plugs, 6 or so K&B plugs, etc. The Thunderbolts and Zingers appear to be the same and both claim to have rhodium alloyed with platinum in the elements. Thunderbolt makes a HD glowplug that might work good for combat, speed and racing events.

About the time I quit flying CL Speed, I looked back at all the best speeds I'd done in A, B, B-Proto and C (.65's then), and most were with K&B plugs. Many engines were smoked (I think) due to Fireballs blowing their seals. Tho, to be perfectly fair about it, maybe the Fireballs blew their seals because the engines got smoked. I could speculate that a blown seal would reduce compression, reduce pumping action, thereby leaning the engine and cooking it. Would anybody agree/disagree on this? I did try Fox glowplugs some on the speed engines, but never had good results, either. I don't recall a lot of other brands being available at the LHS. Did Veco make glowplugs with their label? I do recall using some Johnson glowplugs, now that I'm thinking about it. Champions were before my time, tho I saw some in use, occasionally. Early on, we used Ohlsson & Rice plugs and Testors. Sometimes we even had a spare (used). Steve

>It is my understanding the Thunderbolt plugs are produced by
>O&R as well.
>
Like most everyone else, George had Irwin producing the Magnum branded plugs. The Magnum line of products was intended to include a range of stunt-oriented items, like hot plugs, wide-bladed props, fuel, some skinny wheels like the Don's brand that never saw the light of day, and the handle that George himself liked (and I always found to be too skinny, but I still use mine).

Given the timeline, I can't imagine that Irwin Ohlsson is still alive today, but I remember George talking about how many plug brands were all made by O&R, and that Irwin was "elderly" already when George was selling the Magnum branded goods.

The thing that put George out of business was a rationing of chemicals after one or another Opec price gouge & temporary gas shortage caused by the US oil companies not accepting the Opec price. George had made a deal with Carl Goldberg Company to supply a very large amount of Magnum fuel, and Goldberg became the only distributor of the brand. It was a potentially profitable arrangement for both. The fuel brand had been rather instantly popular wherever it was sold.

But the arrangement called for twice as much fuel the following year as sold in the current year. Then, when it was time to order Nitro, George learned he would only be allowed to buy as much as he'd bought the year before. A black market existed, but at more than twice the now-already increased price. Rather than bankrupt himself meeting the Goldberg contract with the overpriced Nitro for the balance of the amount promised, he paid some kind of penalty to Goldberg and shut everything down - handles, plugs, props, all of it stopped because he couldn't get Nitro at anything like how much he had paid before.

(Dick Ritch now has the mixing vats, accessories {automatic stirrers, etc.} that had belonged to George.)

.
Kiwi

LAST EDITED ON Jul-11-03 AT 01:19 PM (CDT)
 
>So there is one case where substituting a Fox made an
>improvement.
>
Anyone who ever had George Aldrich work on an engine for them learned he'd tell most folks that he didn't want the engines in their original boxes (which he told folks he would discard if they did come that way), or with a plug in it, and I forget a few other things he would say he that liked to stipulate. (I did overhear him make the comment against original boxes, other than standard shipping stuff, a couple of times when he took phone calls while I was visiting.)

He used literally a hundred Tupperware containers, or very similar, maybe over a hundred of them, stacked everywhere, and could tell you about almost every customer engine on hand - whose it was, and what it needed done, for the most part right from memory.

But one thing I watched him do a great many times was SMASH Fox plugs flat on top of an anvil. He had a mini-sledge, about 2 pounds, and he would put Fox plugs on the anvil and "whack", instant flat blob. He absolutely hated the things. If someone sent him an engine with a Fox plug in it, they would never see THAT plug again.

One time he pointed to a five gallon paint can on the floor next to the anvil's base, about one tenth filled with flattened plugs, and said he would some day have it full, and ship it to Duke to confirm with the old man how much he disliked the plugs. Later, he claimed he never said any such thing. But I think that instead, he had been pulling my leg previously, and then only because he hadn't emptied that paint bucket in so long.

.
Kiwi

LAST EDITED ON Jul-11-03 AT 03:03 AM (CDT)
 
Hmmmm... Come to think of it, George sold a line of plugs at one time. I managed to snag a card of them from Bob Bearden in the mid-80s. According to Bob, General Motors put George out of the glow plug business when they adopted catalytic converters (instead of, say, Honda's CVCC technology). Platinum metal prices shot through the roof.

Kiwi I think George was perhaps somewhat pulling your leg. I sent him two Super Tigre G21-46 engines in the original boxes for his ABC rework . One was NIB the other slightly used in the original box. He reworked both and returned them in the same boxes with all replaced parts in the respective boxes. He may have disliked to get original boxes due to SOME individuals sending him less than perfect boxes and then later claiming that he "damaged" or "changed" boxes so they could get mint appearing containers. George knew me and knew that I wouldn't pull something like that.
Bigiron

LAST EDITED ON Jul-11-03 AT 02:07 PM (CDT)
 
I sent GMA a NIB Fox .35 in 1997. It was returned in the original box with a nice note, part of which reads "Fox plugs suck! Try R/C long from Hobby Shack - Thunder Bolt is name. (sic) At least 25% castor in the fuel." George had, in fact replaced the Fox plug with a Thunder Bolt. I assume the original suffered the same fate as his brothers and was relegated to the paint can.

Iskandar,

Just about the time I think you might know what you're talking about, you prove me wrong. And do so with fair regularity.

Ya know, it's one thing to hear something truly silly, such as GM put GMA out of business because they didn't develop something like Honda's CVCC technology--which even Honda didn't have at the time and wouldn't have until many years later--and it is quite another to repeat said silliness. When George was marketing glow plugs U.S. demand for platinum did go very high, thus the prices went up as well. If you or someone else is looking for a Bad Guy here, look no further than those pushing the regulations which required use of catalytic converters. On Hondas, GM cars, Fords, etc., etc.

As Ohlsson makes plugs to specifications for others, of course there are variables. Duh. Steve and I were merely pointing out the plugs from Ohlsson are universally good 'uns. Depending upon the application. Of course.

One of the reasons for the good rep are the seals. Two Belleville washers smashed tight, one against the other. Excellent seals on all O&R plugs.

At one time and over a period of many years, McCoy offered far, far more than just three or four types of glow plugs.

No one said Thunderbolts are the same as KB-1Ls.

Here's how it works: You want to market glow plugs. You call Ohlsson. They will want to know the body style, finish on the body, pin style and finish, length, etc. You figure out exactly what kind of wire you would like to have used for the element, then you actually go out and buy your choice of wire. In the specified diameter. Ohlsson is in the plug-making business, they do not want to be subjected to the volatility of the commodities market. Reference: GM refusing to steal technology Honda didn't yet have and so using lots of platinum in catalytic converters.

Have not forgotten about the articles promised to you and that Captured Radical guy. Still have a very full plate, plus we're Computer Stupid around here. I was lucky to get PTG's e-mail asking if I had received an earlier e-mail from him. And of course I had not. Resorted to a good old phone call. Dang, that still works. And Phil was exceedingly surprised to find I've got his office number. Would anyone else like to have it...?

LAST EDITED ON Jul-12-03 AT 04:01 AM (CDT)
 
*Shrug*

I remember reading an article about CVCC in the early 70s, which was around the time catalytic converters were being introduced, so I'm pretty sure it was around back then. I do remember people owning Honda Civics of that vintage, even if I wasn't in the States at the time when the cars were new.

As for who to blame, that would depend on ones' political biases, I suppose. I'm just repeating what Bob Bearden said. I don't necessarily agree with him. You do seem to jump on anything that doesn't jibe with your "the liberals are to blame for everything" view of the world.

---------

Additions:

OK, this aroused some curiosity, so I went looking to see if I could pin down the exact year CVCC and catalytic converters were introduced. According to this article:

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/generations/articles/68272/article.html

it was 1975 for both. That was the year CVCC cars were imported into the US - according to this web site:

http://www.hondacorporate.com/environ_tech/timeline.html

the technology was first introduced in 1971. OK, that takes part of the "Honda didn't have". As far as "refused to steal", there is this thing called "licensing". Of course, since the Japanese never innovate, so why should a huge American company license anything Japanese?

Incidentally, the stratified charge concept had been around since before 1930. The Rolls Royce Crecy engine (development stopped in 1945) was supposed to make use of the concept to achieve very high fuel efficiency despite being a two-stroke.

More edit:

Here's an amusing page (titled "The secret behind the Honda CVCC engine": )

http://www.liepoldfarms.com/rally/motor.htm

LAST EDITED ON Jul-12-03 AT 04:17 AM (CDT)
 
>Very true, Iskandar. There appear to be about 6-10 different
>McCoy plugs, 6 or so K&B plugs, etc. The Thunderbolts and
>Zingers appear to be the same and both claim to have rhodium
>alloyed with platinum in the elements. Thunderbolt makes a
>HD glowplug that might work good for combat, speed and
>racing events.

I remember Al Kelly telling me what the various metals did in plug elements, but I can't remember all the details anymore (nor can I vouch for the accuracy of the information). Supposedly rhodium and irridium (which are more expensive than platinum) help the engine to idle because they are more reactive. The "cold" racing plugs (according to Al) use some tungsten in the alloy, because it toughens up the element, allowing the plug to withstand more heat and higher compression (which, I would guess, increases stress due to flunctuations in pressure, etc.). Unfortunately, it isn't reactive with methanol, so it makes the plug "colder" - less able to handle idling conditions or rich running.

I was tempted to mount some elements from various plugs in epoxy and use IU's electron microprobe to see if this really was the case...

>About the time I quit flying CL Speed, I looked back at all
>the best speeds I'd done in A, B, B-Proto and C (.65's
>then), and most were with K&B plugs. Many engines were
>smoked (I think) due to Fireballs blowing their seals. Tho,
>to be perfectly fair about it, maybe the Fireballs blew
>their seals because the engines got smoked. I could
>speculate that a blown seal would reduce compression, reduce
>pumping action, thereby leaning the engine and cooking it.
>Would anybody agree/disagree on this?

Doesn't really make sense to me, because the pumping action of the crankcase wouldn't change. What does change is that compression immediately drops, causing the engine to slow down or stop, which wouldn't seem like it would stress the engine, just the opposite. I've had a blown seal exactly once, with a Fox Std. Long. It was on one of those Brat .28s I used to fly in Combat. All of a sudden, the engine started sounding like an outboard motor (gurgling, as though the exhaust was under water), and RPM dropped to the point where only level flight was possible. The engine kept running until the bladder was empty.

Fireball plugs supposedly have very good, tough elements (according to some magazine articles I've read). Their weak point was the seals, and people have tried improving on them by dabbing on epoxy, etc. Al tried to explain to me why the seals were bad, but I can't remember the details. Something to do with the shape of them. The other plugs the magazine writers liked were Taylors. They speculated that if Taylor started using Fireball elements, you'd have the perfect racing plug.

>I did try Fox
>glowplugs some on the speed engines, but never had good
>results, either. I don't recall a lot of other brands being
>available at the LHS. Did Veco make glowplugs with their
>label? I do recall using some Johnson glowplugs, now that
>I'm thinking about it. Champions were before my time, tho I
>saw some in use, occasionally. Early on, we used Ohlsson &
>Rice plugs and Testors. Sometimes we even had a spare
>(used). Steve

I must admit, I've used a LOT of Fox plugs, mainly because I could buy them at the Nats from the Fox van (and before that, out of the trunk of Duke Fox's car) real cheap. They were OK for Combat if you changed them before every match (people were doing this with other brands of plugs, too, so it must've been the engines we were using back then), and saved the used plugs for practice. The Miracle plugs, I later found, were nice for use where you needed a hot plug (e.g. for those Fox .35 Stunt Combat events..).

Other weird plugs I've used included OPS (Tower was selling them real cheap three or four years ago), Supre Tigre (ditto - these proved to be very cold), and some really cheap Chinese idle bar plugs (something like 50 cents apiece) that worked great in Speed Limit combat engines, but the RC people said would not work at all when idling. Ask the question about the best plug ever made on rec.models.rc, and the answer you get would be the O.S. #8 - I actually own a few I bought at a swap meet, but I haven't actually used them yet. Kind of a waste on Combat engines. Expensive little things..

>One of the reasons for the good rep are the seals. Two
>Belleville washers smashed tight, one against the other.
>Excellent seals on all O&R plugs.

Incidentally, how does this differ from the seals found in Fox and Fireball plugs (the latter are supposedly failure-prone)? Or the seals in Twinn-K plugs (which, if I recall the ads correctly, were supposedly glass)? Also, what serves to electrically insulate the center post from the plug body?