Handle Angle ?

What is the best attitude, angle , to hold the handle for stunting??
I have not progressed beyond lazy eights, and some inverted for many years and now I have returned to flying I want to learn the pattern. I used to turn the handle from upright -when going inverted- following the model so that the up line is leading the model in inverted flight. A recent engine cut resulted in an inverted landing brought home to me the fact that I could not whip the model to keep it airborne longer because this resulted in more up elevator being applied. Have to re-learn the lazy eight for a start.
Vincentzo

>What is the best attitude, angle , to hold the handle for
>stunting??
>I have not progressed beyond lazy eights, and some inverted
>for many years and now I have returned to flying I want to
>learn the pattern. I used to turn the handle from upright
>-when going inverted- following the model so that the up
>line is leading the model in inverted flight. A recent
>engine cut resulted in an inverted landing brought home to
>me the fact that I could not whip the model to keep it
>airborne longer because this resulted in more up elevator
>being applied. Have to re-learn the lazy eight for a start.
>Vincentzo

Although there are exceptions to every statement (except the statement saying there are exceptions) it is normally better to hold your handle vertically whether upright or inverted. You have hit upon the biggest problem of holding the handle sideways in that if the plane leads or lags behind the hand (or the hand the plane) then you will be applying "up" or "down" control that was not intended.

Also, if your handle is one with a bar in front (or fixed arms) those arms (or bar) should be vertical no matter how you hold your hand. Some advocate your holding you hand absolutely (or as close to it) vertical while in neutral. If you hold your hand closer to your chest, this is how it will end up naturally. If you extend your arm straight out, pretty much stiff (this was the style used by Konstantine at the Nats) then you will naturally angle your hand forward.

Most people in the US advocate the less stiff, closer to the chest approach in holding the handle, or somewhere in between. East coast, West coast, Texas style are all a little different, so there are various roads to get there. I would suggest watching a few of the good flyers at a contest and talking to them. They may have some pointers to add. (Any contests out your way that you could attend?)

How you hold your handle doesn't have much effect on how well you fly- its mostly practice and habit. Years ago I did like everybody else and adjusted the handle angled a bit to follow the natural hand position. Every flying session seemed to be a minor fight to get the angle exactly right. then I discovered that you can slide the handle around in your hand and get a good neutral with almost any handle angle. then I started adjusting the handle so it was perpendicular to the ground. Very easy to see and adjust and consistent. Took a few flights to get used to but much easier to keep track of.

Changing the angle of the handle biases the controls. If a particular plane doesn't turn right one direction or the other angling the handle can make it more responsive, at least until you do surgery and correct the problem. Tipping the handle down reduces the down elevator, tipping it back reduces up.

Holding the handle is up to the flyer. I do believe then Ted Fancher wrote something about this, years ago. Before my time.... LOL
I hold my neutral as if I was to shake your hand Top of wrist straight so I have equal movement up and down. EVERONE IS DIFFERENT I have lot of wrist movement, where some people have very little.

Scott( must be all the curve balls that I threw)Riese

Are you throwing us a curve now???
Bigiron

>What is the best attitude, angle , to hold the handle for
>stunting??
>I have not progressed beyond lazy eights, and some inverted
>for many years and now I have returned to flying I want to
>learn the pattern. I used to turn the handle from upright
>-when going inverted- following the model so that the up
>line is leading the model in inverted flight. A recent
>engine cut resulted in an inverted landing brought home to
>me the fact that I could not whip the model to keep it
>airborne longer because this resulted in more up elevator
>being applied. Have to re-learn the lazy eight for a start.
>Vincentzo

As I mentioned when you asked on Flitelines....

Upright at neutral!!! Very important for stunt performance and consistency. It is my strong recommendation to *not* use the "relaxed grip" or forward tilt. This causes a bunch of problems with inside/outside response. as you progress, and tends to make you fly with your arm straight, which I also think is a mistake for most people. Most, but not all, of the best pilots tend to fly with their hands right in front of their chest, with a significant crook in the elbow - at least during the maneuvers. This makes the up and down movement pretty much equal with neutral set with the grip perpendicular to the lines.

I can't overemphasize enough that your handle should be UPRIGHT at neutral, not tilted forward.

Posture and orientation in general are really very important but overlooked items. Most shape problems result from posture problems like head tilts, maneuvers biased to one side or the other relative to the body, and things of that sort.

PAUL fly's with more angle then I do? and he's an ok flyer!!

Scott(now what?)riese

LAST EDITED ON Jul-22-03 AT 02:27 AM (CDT)
 
>PAUL fly's with more angle then I do? and he's an ok flyer!!
>

Not as much as it may look like. I have flown a PW airplane, and we adjusted it slightly towards upright to accomodate me. It was two turns of a 8-32 nut on about a 6" base. It was too much - should have been about 1 turn. That translates to about .025" difference in line lengths on a very slow control system. That's not much difference at all.

Additionally, watch PW fly maneuvers, not level flight. His elbow is not straight, it's crooked at a pretty good angle, and his hand is right in front of his chest (somewhat higher than average), and the handle (as described above) is close to upright in both pitch and roll. Good posture as you would expect from someone with good shape consistency

And, regardless of what anyone else does, I recommend either starting out with good posture and handle adjustment, or if you have gotten used to something else, to try to train yourself out of weird handle angles as soon as possible. You *can* learn to fly consistently while waving your hand all around and having strange handle setups, but it's my belief that you will find it much easier in the long run to hold it as described.

I used to do hold a lot of forward tilt at neutral, but retraining myself to fly with everything square and symmetrical really, really helped me in terms of shapes and repeatability.

> I used to do hold a lot of forward tilt at neutral, but
>retraining myself to fly with everything square and
>symmetrical really, really helped me in terms of shapes and
>repeatability.
>
> Brett

You have to hold your arm quite forward and quite stiff in order to fly with that forward tilt. Konstantine is an example of one who flies that way and is quite good. But, I agree with you, Brett, totally. Holding the hand more upright and with the elbow bent and the hand closer to the chest is much easier. Matt is another one who has been "retrained", if you will, from a foward tilt to an upright hand. We have both learned to bring our hands in and it is much better. Surprising what you can learn by watching and listening to others.

LAST EDITED ON Jul-24-03 AT 11:38 AM (CDT)
 
It never fails to amaze me all the things I am doing wrong and on here I find the correct way, or better way of doing even what appears to be a simple thing. Now I can see why I have so much trouble in certain maneuvers. Now I will try it your way and I'll bet I do much better. Before the advent of the safety thong, I flew much differently in the way I held the handle, kinda like you described, but now I do it "wrong" and it has affected how I fly. This week end I will go back to the old way and see if it makes a difference. Thanks guys. ps. I'll still use the safety thong, but ignore how it affects how I now hold the handle. This probably doesn't make any sense to you, but it does to me.

>It never fails to amaze me all the things I am doing wrong and on here
>I find the correct way, or better way of doing even what appears to be
>a simple thing. Now I can see why I have so much trouble in certain
>maneuvers. Now I will try it your way and I'll bet I do much better.
>Before the advent of the safety thong, I flew much differently in the way I held the handle, kinda like you described, but now I do it
>"wrong" and it has affected how I fly. This week end I will go back to
>the old way and see if it makes a difference. Thanks guys. ps. I'll
>still use the safety thong, but ignore how it affects how I now hold the
>handle. This probably doesn't make any sense to you, but it does to me.

Actually, Ty, it really sounds somewhat as though your thong is set up wrong somehow, if you are even aware of it when flying. Maybe it's too short.

In the many years of flying I've experienced, I've held my hand and arm in just about every possible position, from clamped to my chest in Rat Racing, right down literally to waist-level to make a combat opponent have a difficult shot lining up on my streamer. In combat, tucking in or extending out your arm is just another way to move the streamer around defensively. And you have to be able to follow an opponent's hand with your hand offensively to make streamer cutting possible.

With some experience holding other folks' handles, you can adapt to a fairly wide range of handle angles without much trouble. A few times I've had a connector be partly twisted and missed seeing it until it suddenly straightens out and lengthens withever flying line that was involved by a sudden extra 1/8" or so. It can be a surprise, but you just kind of move the handle around in your fingers to make it feel less "wrong".

If a modeller is really pumped up about flying patterns to suit the contest judges, the potential extra precision and another thing are going to encourage him to choose the modern PA half-bent pose. The bent arm, raised hand, and unnaturally tucked elbow (for any other arm motion), should combine to afford considerable repeatability, compared to the sport flier's more relaxed stance. Repeatability fits into getting a great deal of practice.

Stunt has always seemed to have been third-best behind combat and racing for me. The continued repetition of the same thing just does not have a big attraction to me. So I set handles with a slight bit of forward tilt. Maybe not much, but it's there.

.
Kiwi

Just thinking about the ergonomics involved... There are four joints to think about (if you can consider the fingers group as one joint): the shoulder, the elbow, the wrist, and the fingers. Actually it's got to be a lot more complicated than that but for the moment: The fingers are probably the most "accurate" or possibly "sensitive" to position and muscular control but they are weaker and have less range of motion than shoulder/elbow control muscles. So, do you use the shoulder/elbow/wrist for the larger/gross control and the fingers for fine adjustments and "trim"? For example: a loop might be almost all wrist control with finger tip trim, where a triangle might be more shoulder/elbow with wrist and finger tip trim?

After many hours of practice you can learn to reproduce a muscle position with out visual feed back. So, then, for a maneuver do you start with a learned position of the shoulder/elbow/wrist and then add gross trim with the wrist and final trim with the finger tips relying on visual feed back of the actual track of the plane?

The hours of practice may allow you to control the gross movements subconsciously while using more of the conscious thought for fine trim. Perhaps conscious thought of fine trim is not quite the right description? Perhaps concentration on the desired vs actual flight path with the subconscious translating the visual feedback into musclar control. You don't think about how much you elbow or wrist is angled, but rather about the position/flight path of the plane...

>Just thinking about the ergonomics involved... There are
>four joints to think about (if you can consider the fingers
>group as one joint): the shoulder, the elbow, the wrist, and
>the fingers. Actually it's got to be a lot more complicated
>than that but for the moment: The fingers are probably the
>most "accurate" or possibly "sensitive" to position and
>muscular control but they are weaker and have less range of
>motion than shoulder/elbow control muscles. So, do you use
>the shoulder/elbow/wrist for the larger/gross control and
>the fingers for fine adjustments and "trim"? For example: a
>loop might be almost all wrist control with finger tip trim,
>where a triangle might be more shoulder/elbow with wrist and
>finger tip trim?

You kind of got me lost on that one, Ron. The shoulder and elbow are probably used more to follow the path of the plane rather than control it. You need to (or should) follow the path of the plane (circular motion for a loop, etc.) but not wave it around wildly. The wrist, then, becomes the major source of control movement as you point the handle at the airplane and apply the needed control movement. Some balance the handle on their middle fingers, but it is still wrist motion that controls the airplane, especially if you have any kind of pull on the lines. I can't imagine trying to control the airplane with fingers only. Although I have heard of people looping the lines over their fingers and making their hand the handle. (I have also heard of people putting their heads in a lion's mouth or swallowing swords, but I wouldn't recommend it for the general population.)

>>Just thinking about the ergonomics involved... There are
>>four joints to think about (if you can consider the fingers
>>group as one joint): the shoulder, the elbow, the wrist, and
>>the fingers. Actually it's got to be a lot more complicated
>>than that but for the moment: The fingers are probably the
>>most "accurate" or possibly "sensitive" to position and
>>muscular control but they are weaker and have less range of
>>motion than shoulder/elbow control muscles. So, do you use
>>the shoulder/elbow/wrist for the larger/gross control and
>>the fingers for fine adjustments and "trim"? For example: a
>>loop might be almost all wrist control with finger tip trim,
>>where a triangle might be more shoulder/elbow with wrist and
>>finger tip trim?
>
>You kind of got me lost on that one, Ron. The shoulder and
>elbow are probably used more to follow the path of the plane
>rather than control it. You need to (or should) follow the
>path of the plane (circular motion for a loop, etc.) but not
>wave it around wildly. The wrist, then, becomes the major
>source of control movement as you point the handle at the
>airplane and apply the needed control movement. Some
>balance the handle on their middle fingers, but it is still
>wrist motion that controls the airplane, especially if you
>have any kind of pull on the lines. I can't imagine trying
>to control the airplane with fingers only. Although I have
>heard of people looping the lines over their fingers and
>making their hand the handle. (I have also heard of people
>putting their heads in a lion's mouth or swallowing swords,
>but I wouldn't recommend it for the general population.)

yeah, my thougts were not well written. but the gist was that the wrist alone can't provide the range of motion necessary, the elbow while having adequate range of motion does not have the accuracy. Maybe "grip" would be a better description than "finger tip"? I certailnly didn't mean to imply wrapping a line around a finger or anything like that. By way of example of "grip" consider the importance of the grip in golf or tennis on precision and control.

I think your description is better and more to the point for us beginners trying to learn precision: ...point the handle at the airplane (with the elbow/shoulder?) and "control" with the wrist. But, shouldn't "...follow the path of the plane..." be "...lead the path of the plane..."? That is to say, does leading or lagging the plane affect the flight path? And aren't the gross motions done with the shoulder/elbow and the finer movements done with the wrist? My planes may be poorly set up, but I don't think I can initiate a square (a 4 lump loop in my case) without a significant elbow/shoulder input. Just rolling my wrist up and following the flight path doesn't produce a tight corner. Does this mean that I should increase the sensitivity of the control system? I have tried to adjust my control system (handle, lines, plane) to try to balance smoothness and response. As I sit here pondering my grip on my coffee cup I can't help but think that grip also has a subtle but important effect on the response of the airplane. I may be doing this wrong, and do appreciate you comments. It seems to me that I do tend to use grip as sort of a "trim" function. Either because of adrenalin or because it sorta works, I think I tend to tighten my grip slightly on inverted flight and outside maneuvers. It occurs to me that this might be a form of "down" trim. It might well also be a bad idea

The bottom line is, it doesn't matter. It's what's comfortable for the individual. I set lines so the handle is vertical. I learned to fly inverted with the handle horizontal with my palm down. It was easier to move my wrist to the down position with my hand that way so I didn't make the "give-it-up" error. I'm sure I still fly that way occasionally, but I don't think about it, so I don't notice. The only thing that makes a good stunt flyer good is a lot of repetitive practice. It doesn't have a ##### thing to do with how you hold the handle. While you are learning to fly the pattern, you will do what feels right to get there.
The difference between stunt flyers and the rest of us is the practice.
I see the similarity of guys who go to track days on motorcycles and those who go to the canyons. The guys who go to the track constantly are very fast and can generally outrun me on my rare apperances there, because they know the track (pattern) well and they can perform at that site very well. But, when they get to my milieu, (combat and more freestyle flying) the canyons, I can blow them in the weeds because I can read the road better. Point being, if you practice the same thing all the time, particularly if you have someone to compete with and compare notes with, you can excel at repetitive tasks. And it doesn't require that you have exactly the same flying style to do it.
Be comfortable, and PRACTICE. That will get you there, if that's where you want to go.
Bare

Bare,

You make a good point about the motorcycle courses. However you are adapting to the conditions better than that of your more track oriented friends, and your bike is much more suited for it also, probably. In my limited experience on motorcycles track bikes never run as well on the open land as do the enduros. They just arent setup for that type of riding. Mine(track) were always setup for all or nothing throttle. That is not good for enduro riding where you may only need 3/4 for a while or barely any at all. The setup is a huge part of the equation there. They me be excellent riders but their equipment isnt setup for that. The original question is there a more correct way to hold the handle than another way? Answer...what feels right might not always be right. Lets take your example and apply it to golf. A golfer learns a particular course and can kick ass on it any time he likes. However he doesnt have the best golf swing for all conditions and he doesnt practice the best swing techniques. You take him to a new course and he stinks up the place. He blames it on the fact that he doesnt know the course. Well that may be true to a certain extent. However if he had good swing techniques and his setup was very repeatable and he new the extent and the lengths of each of his clubs in the bag all he would really need is a very good map of said course to a have a reasonable chance at scoring well. In a golf swing 99% of the time what feels very natural is not always the correct way to swing the club. After many practice swings it becomes natural feeling. As with CL flying and particular handle positions. IMHO the nuetral biased handles are not nearly as good as using a handle that is verticle. Your whole arm from the shoulder out is working to control the model. It is not flown in the wrist only so the nuetral bias argument is void. If your arm were locked in place and only the wrist could move then yes the biased handle would be a must, but that isnt the case. A forward biased handle will be more responsive to the inside turns. The biceps pulling in conjuction with the forward biased handle will result in the feel of a shorter up line. Even if the bicep only pulls a tiny amount. In the down movements you dont have the luxury of the bicep muscle being able to pull inward. You are haveing to do it more with the wrist action. It already "feels" as if the up line is shorter so the down controls will feel slower. People get very used to this. Then you get them on a vert handle and "WOW" that is all off. However it is more repeatable every time. With the verticle handle yes the down line can be felt as just a hair more responsive and that can be a good thing because of the absence of the curling bicep for a natural pull inward during a maneuver. But this will help make it very repeatable in all situations. Trimming it to fly where you feel as though you are just flying it on your fingers is key to getting it very comfortable and repeatable. Of couse no one really flys on only their hand, the whole arm is at work. But it(setup) can yield and very comfortable amount of almost no feeling of arm movement and leave it all in the wrist. I was taught to fly inverted with my palm up so if I get scared I just stop and the down line shortens as the model flys along and it flips itself back over and I contimue on. To this day I still fly that way. It is not a good practice for me. Making the wingover inverted and the outside square inverted was very hard for me to get correct and I still blow it often. I believe it has to do with bad form. At this point I have learned to repeat it and I am staying with it. If I had changed to a new method many years ago I bet I could have gotten it good alot sooner.

>The bottom line is, it doesn't matter. It's what's
>comfortable for the individual. I set lines so the handle is
>vertical. I learned to fly inverted with the handle
>horizontal with my palm down. It was easier to move my wrist
>to the down position with my hand that way so I didn't make
>the "give-it-up" error. I'm sure I still fly that way
>occasionally, but I don't think about it, so I don't notice.
>The only thing that makes a good stunt flyer good is a lot
>of repetitive practice. It doesn't have a ##### thing to do
>with how you hold the handle. While you are learning to fly
>the pattern, you will do what feels right to get there.
>The difference between stunt flyers and the rest of us is
>the practice.
>I see the similarity of guys who go to track days on
>motorcycles and those who go to the canyons. The guys who go
>to the track constantly are very fast and can generally
>outrun me on my rare apperances there, because they know the
>track (pattern) well and they can perform at that site very
>well. But, when they get to my milieu, (combat and more
>freestyle flying) the canyons, I can blow them in the weeds
>because I can read the road better. Point being, if you
>practice the same thing all the time, particularly if you
>have someone to compete with and compare notes with, you can
>excel at repetitive tasks. And it doesn't require that you
>have exactly the same flying style to do it.
>Be comfortable, and PRACTICE. That will get you there, if
>that's where you want to go.
>Bare

Bare,
I must respectfully disagree. Some of us are self taught and need to learn from the experiences of others. That doesn't mean I should try to adopt the exact style of someone else. But, there are many ways to basically fly the model and practicing something wrong (or other than the correct/best way) is a bad plan for success. I too, learned to fly inverted with my palm down. It is a difficult habit to change and most people tell me that keeping the handle verticle is the best way to go. I hope what we are talking about here is not the very subtle nuances of style but the larger generalities that will reduce the frustrations of the learning process... Once you get to the top skill levels you can develop your own style for your own best performance.

Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect

>The bottom line is, it doesn't matter. It's what's
>comfortable for the individual. I set lines so the handle is
>vertical. I learned to fly inverted with the handle
>horizontal with my palm down. It was easier to move my wrist
>to the down position with my hand that way so I didn't make
>the "give-it-up" error. I'm sure I still fly that way
>occasionally, but I don't think about it, so I don't notice.
>The only thing that makes a good stunt flyer good is a lot
>of repetitive practice. It doesn't have a ##### thing to do
>with how you hold the handle. While you are learning to fly
>the pattern, you will do what feels right to get there.
>The difference between stunt flyers and the rest of us is
>the practice. (snip)
>Bare

Bare, don't let Art catch you saying that. When you listen to him giving a clinic he will tell you that how you hold the handle and where you hold the handle is everything. I used the term "following" the airplane before and what I meant by that is that the hand needs to be doing what the airplane is doing. If the airplane is doing a loop, then the hand needs to be out in front of you, pointed at the airplane and doing the same loop at the same time.

When I watch Matt and see him doing some bobbles and goofs, I now look at him. Invariable there is something mechanical that he is doing that is causing that goof. Correct the mechanics and you go a long way to correcting the pattern.

>The bottom line is, it doesn't matter. It's what's
>comfortable for the individual. I set lines so the handle is
>vertical. I learned to fly inverted with the handle
>horizontal with my palm down. It was easier to move my wrist
>to the down position with my hand that way so I didn't make
>the "give-it-up" error.

I guess I'm having some symantics problems visualizing the discussion here. By "forward tilt", is that holding the handle so the top of your hand is more toward the airplane (what would normally be "down" elevator) or is that rotating your forearm so the top of your hand is more toward the two o'clock rather than high noon?

When I learned to fly inverted I started rotating the handle 90º (ain't them ASCII characters kewl?) so my palm was up (yes, I'm a rightie). I generally fly the inverted laps smoother this way. I was told it's probably a bad habit. On my outide loops, my hand goes palm up on the bottom - when the plane is inverted. If I try to hold the handle vertical (arm extended) I have problems such as I had tonight and pancaked an airplane (once again) on the bottom of an outside. This is a problem area I've been stuck at for a number of years.

>I guess I'm having some symantics problems visualizing the
>discussion here. By "forward tilt", is that holding the
>handle so the top of your hand is more toward the airplane
>(what would normally be "down" elevator) or is that rotating
>your forearm so the top of your hand is more toward the two
>o'clock rather than high noon?

"Forward tilt" is your first guess. The hand remains vertical, but the top portion is leaning further towards the plane than the bottom. Although there are some areas where this is more common (and this is what I grew up with) it is generally not recommended. For forward tilt to function and allow you equal amount of movement towards "up" as towards "down", you will need to extend your arm straight (or nearly straight) out. There are a few good fliers who are able to do this (Konstantine at the Nats was a prime example) but it is generally considered better fundamentally to bend the elbow during maneuvers and hold your hand up in front of you.

>When I learned to fly inverted I started rotating the handle
>90º (ain't them ASCII characters kewl?) so my palm was up
>(yes, I'm a rightie). I generally fly the inverted laps
>smoother this way. I was told it's probably a bad habit.
>On my outide loops, my hand goes palm up on the bottom -
>when the plane is inverted. If I try to hold the handle
>vertical (arm extended) I have problems such as I had
>tonight and pancaked an airplane (once again) on the bottom
>of an outside. This is a problem area I've been stuck at
>for a number of years.

Not good. Not recommended as fundamentally correct. Although there are exceptions to everything (except this statement) this practice will hurt you in the long run and generally keep you from being the best you can.

Although this method is often taught to newcomers as an "easy" way to learn to fly inverted, it will hurt you in the long run when you wish to become proficient in doing the maneuvers. When the hand is held vertical, any up or down movement of the plane of the hand will affect the attitude of the airplane. Thus the importance to stress following the motion of the plane while flying. However, when the hand is held sideways (palm up or down) any side to side movement of the plane or hand will affect the attitude of the airplane. Not only does this make flying level more difficult (which we do a lot of) but it also is a different influence than the vertically held handle. Thus the need to learn to do inside maneuvers and outside maneuvers differently.

It is not a difficult transition to make (certainly not nearly as difficult as changing from flying clockwise to counterclockwise) and the sooner you pick up the "habit" of holding the handle vertically at all times, the faster you will progress.

I dreamed of the following situation. When you fly inverted with your hand palm up; the plane will hunt dependent upon the fuselage yaw variation created by the wind. ie if you are downwind the plane will yaw in. the bellcrank will stay in the same relative position as the handle but the inward yaw gives the bellcrank a slight rotation with respect to the plane causing up elevator. If your hand is vertical this is a non event. So inverted and level flight are affected with the handle in the horizontal position. This would affect level flight upright and inverted scores.

Bob Smiley
A Lancair 360 builder/pilot trying to be a modeler