BARF Nobler Recall Notice

I don't know if this has come up on the forum yet.... but I just set to assembling my BARF Nobler. ("BARF" because what I found in the wing made me puke!) The leadout arangement's gotta go fellas! For one thing that wire's a very narrow diameter, but... they're anchored to the bellcrank with two little wire clips that look like the assembler's three year old concocted them. The crank is easily removed, so get 'em outta there. I switched to solids. Oh my God!
Oh, yeah... the bellcrank's god some kind of wierd, cryastaline surface on it that resembles an ABRASIVE, kind of like SANDPAPER! I smoothed that off. Seems like a reasonable cutting surface against wire, otherwise. Oh my God.

I guess a hundred bucks ain't gonna get you a Cavalier....

I think your slighty overboard on the BARF statement, however I did replace the leadouts and bellcrank in my Nobler.

I thought the clips that are on the stock on the bellcrank were a neat idea. They are very strong and designed so the leadout attached to a smooth surface to keep from cutting through. As for the sandblasted type finish on the stock bellcrank, I don't think it will aid in cutting through anything.

I guess a hundred bucks ain't gonna get you a Cavalier.... Al

Perhaps a Pinto...

Sorry...couldn't resist

Gentlemen,

I think before we start bashing this plane, we should consider what we have here....the FIRST serious ARF C/L plane to come along from a major mfg. in like, FOREVER! Looking at mine, I can only say that the Top Flite people did an excellent job of creating this ARF. Any qualities not up to PA standards can be easily upgraded and suggestions submitted to Top Flite for possible mods in future production runs. We have a nicely aligned, almost complete C/L ARF stunter with an all-up weight (with Brodak 40, Fox 35, or OS35S) of 40 oz. or less.

I admit that I am doing a few things to mine, eg. adding cross-grain balsa between the motor mounts in the tank compartment; adding some light balsa above the mounts in the engine compartment (to help prevent the cowl from shaking); changing the leadouts to something I have a bit more confidence in; and using a CF pushrod back to the elevator. However, none of these changes are necessary to make a flyable airplane. So quit complaining and express some gratitude!

Thanks Top Flite!!

Fred,
To whom do we send our love and kisses to??

Fred, on the carbon fiber pushrod, what did you use on the ends for the conections at the horns? I made fast progress assembling mine last week until I got to the point of hooking up the clevis at the elevator horn and the flap. Major pain! Also, after hooking up, unhooking, etc. for adjustment, these clevis thingies look a little "sprung" open- scary. I put mine aside while I tried to make up my mind about the tank problem and the pushrod and its connections. Ed Keller

Ed,

I'll most likely use heavy duty ball links.

Ed, in reply to the 'sprung clevis' question, after losing my Sterling Mustang to one of these that opened up on the elevator horn, I vowed to throw the rest away! (the rest of the clevises) However, as we were flying Rat w/bladders, we used 1/8" fuel line with a 1/8" fuel line "collar" (3/16" long) stretched over the fuel line at the fittings. Tried this "collar" on the sprung clevises, and have been using them ever since! They are slipped over the forked end of the clevis (disconnected from horn) with a pair of hemostats, inside the collar and slid past the fork of the clevis. Attach clivis to horn, and slide the neoprene collar over the clevis, about 3/16" shy of the horn pin. Voila! Cheap, too.
Mike in Atwater

>Gentlemen,
>
>I think before we start bashing this plane, we should
>consider what we have here....the FIRST serious ARF C/L
>plane to come along from a major mfg. in like, FOREVER!
>Looking at mine, I can only say that the Top Flite people
>did an excellent job of creating this ARF. Any qualities
>not up to PA standards can be easily upgraded and
>suggestions submitted to Top Flite for possible mods in
>future production runs. We have a nicely aligned, almost
>complete C/L ARF stunter with an all-up weight (with Brodak
>40, Fox 35, or OS35S) of 40 oz. or less.
>
>I admit that I am doing a few things to mine, eg. adding
>cross-grain balsa between the motor mounts in the tank
>compartment; adding some light balsa above the mounts in the
>engine compartment (to help prevent the cowl from shaking);
>changing the leadouts to something I have a bit more
>confidence in; and using a CF pushrod back to the elevator.
>However, none of these changes are necessary to make a
>flyable airplane. So quit complaining and express some
>gratitude!
>
>Thanks Top Flite!!
>
>Fred

It's NOT a "PA" thing, it's a safety thing. If this turkey were a gun you guys who think this is such a great deal would already have at least two-three law firms climbing your ladder to see how high they can reach into your pockets.
I'm looking at all the work you guys are having to do to yours and still wondering just whom it is outside the retread or current C/L community that is going to bother.
Sure, thanks TF! I'll express gratitutide when they actually do something worthy of it.

Replacing the leadouts and UPGRADING the pushrod, wow Jake your right.....that's a ton of work!

>Replacing the leadouts and UPGRADING the pushrod, wow Jake
>your right.....that's a ton of work!

No joke... By the time you do all this happy stuff you could have either framed it up yourself or paid some American (remember those guys???) worker to do it for you.
Man, you guys are cheap as heck...
It's cheap (for us) it's straight, we can buy it and (almost) fly it...
You guys need to go into a gun shop and pull a Sturm, Ruger & Co. firearm off the rack or out of the display case. Stamped upon the barrel you will find the friendly little message: "Before using gun, read all warnings and instructions in owners manual, available free of charge from Sturm, Ruger & Co."...
Now why do you suppose that is there? Well it is because some slopehead who just happend to be an attorney went out and shot himself through the leg while pretending to be Wyatt Earp with an "Old Style" Ruger single action revolver. He sued the company, claiming he hadn't been properly notified of the "dangers" of the design in question- even though it had been in common use for over 125 years. He won the case and Ruger had to fork over damages and change the design of their single actions- they also put the "warning" stamp on ALL the rest of their line, just to be on the safe side.
This is some amazing stuff guys. If you start changing stuff around and something fails and someone gets hurt (or maybe heaven forbid, killed) as a result, just whom is liable? This can get REAL convoluted.
This is merely a word to the wise.
If you are flying 50 miles out in the country on your own land, and nobody but cows are around, it may not be an issue. If you are on a public area it may well be.

BARF? Built, and Almost Ready to Fail...

I for one am not so ready to bash TF. Someone there finally showed a willingness to speak C/L again, and that can't be bad! If you want to talk about WHERE it was made and by WHOM it was made, I think it is only fair to let IT get in line behind your shoes, shirts, cars, appliances, electronics, and just about everything else in your life. Speaking of your life, are you willing to let your lifestyle sink to the level of those in Shri Lanka, Bangladesh, or other such places? Like it or not, THAT'S WHAT IT WILL TAKE TO GET THIS SORT OF PRODUCTION BACK IN THE U.S.! It's a fact of life. They are willing to work cheaper and live on a LOT less than we are, and no amount of union squalling will EVER change that reality. Do I like it? OF COURSE NOT! Lets not do Top Flite the injustice of laying the entire world economic climate at their feet! Am I for the American worker? You Bet! But if we are to maintain any semblance of our lifestyle, it will NOT come from manufacturing C/L airplanes! (and probably not shoes, radios, TV's, or shirts) So much for ECO 101.....

p.s. A little positive feedback will almost certainly bring about improvement in the product, as it has in R/C ARF's. Negative feedback will almost certainly make the product go away completely. Let's enjoy it while we can, and let the free marketplace determine the outcome.

I can't wait till the next Topflight plane so we can listen to Jake spew the same claptrap once again.

I've had mine a week and still can't decide whether to go with a Fox or with the Brodak 40 I've got coming. I'll change the leadout wires and probably the pushrod, but I'd be the thing would fly fine as is for quite a while.

The question is simply this. Do we want someone, ANYONE, to bring C/L ARF's to market? If so, THIS IS THE ONLY WAY IT WILL HAPPEN! PERIOD! The influence of the marketplace will determine the success of the product, the possibility for improvements, or the utter failure of it. THIS IS EXACTLY AS IT SHOULD BE! Every manufacturer of every product takes the same chances. Can they deliver a quality, or at least satisfactory product? Can they profitably sell it at an acceptable price to the consumer? Is the whole concept a good idea to begin with? Are they sensitive to the needs of their customers? (read: bellcrank, leadouts, pushrod, motormounts)

If I could spare the cash right now, I would have already bought one. Bellcranks, leadouts, and pushrods are cheap! Oh well, I needed a new engine for my BEAR Nobler kit more, at the moment.

Wow Jake your last post is strange even for you! I'm thinking the warnings on pistols might be for people like you!

BTW-the leadouts took me about 30 minutes to replace.....BFD!

I don't know, but I bet that neither Jake or anyone else could frame up a decent plane in the 30 minutes you took to redo your nobler, as he seems to suggest.

>I don't know, but I bet that neither Jake or anyone else
>could frame up a decent plane in the 30 minutes you took to
>redo your nobler, as he seems to suggest.

Oh come on, even I can do better than this. And I seriously doubt that either of you guys put together did or do make as much money as the lawyer did that zapped Ruger- Touche!
Talk about strange, I have to read YOU guy's stuff!

>Wow Jake your last post is strange even for you! I'm
>thinking the warnings on pistols might be for people like
>you!
>
>BTW-the leadouts took me about 30 minutes to
>replace.....BFD!

I hate to point this out to those of us who have half a brain left, BUT. So the ARF Nobler has access hatches built into the centersection of the wing (monokoted, as I understand) so you just unscrew them and clip the installed leadouts- disengage the pushrod and put whatever you like back in place- and you can do this all in 30 minutes or less? Amazing...
Excuse me if I place you in the same catagory with GW Bush and Tony Blair.

>I hate to point this out to those of us who have half a
>brain left, BUT. So the ARF Nobler has access hatches built
>into the centersection of the wing (monokoted, as I
>understand) so you just unscrew them and clip the installed
>leadouts- disengage the pushrod and put whatever you like
>back in place- and you can do this all in 30 minutes or
>less? Amazing...
>Excuse me if I place you in the same catagory with GW Bush
>and Tony Blair.
>
>JAK

Jake ole buddy this really is a case were you ought to at least have one in front of you before you doubt what's being said. I do, and 30 minutes is tops for even a beginner. If it takes anybody longer than that then they really should take up another hobby

>I hate to point this out to those of us who have half a
>brain left, BUT. So the ARF Nobler has access hatches built
>into the centersection of the wing (monokoted, as I
>understand) so you just unscrew them and clip the installed
>leadouts- disengage the pushrod and put whatever you like
>back in place- and you can do this all in 30 minutes or
>less? Amazing...
>Excuse me if I place you in the same catagory with GW Bush
>and Tony Blair.
>
>JAK

Hey, John, comparing them to Bush and Blair. That is one of the nicest things you have said. A real compliment. The president and prime minister of two of the greatest countries in the world. I am already to cast my vote for Bush again in the next election.

Hey, guys, you can be proud. John likes you!

>I can't wait till the next Topflight plane so we can listen
>to Jake spew the same claptrap once again.
>
>I've had mine a week and still can't decide whether to go
>with a Fox or with the Brodak 40 I've got coming. I'll
>change the leadout wires and probably the pushrod, but I'd
>be the thing would fly fine as is for quite a while.

Whew, The claws come out when we get our needle tweaked. What's the matter, does the truth hurt?

Don't know, haven't heard you spew it yet.

Thanks by the way, Pres Bush, Prime Minister Blair, Me, WOW. Never knew I had it so good.

>I for one am not so ready to bash TF. Someone there finally
>showed a willingness to speak C/L again, and that can't be
>bad! If you want to talk about WHERE it was made and by
>WHOM it was made, I think it is only fair to let IT get in
>line behind your shoes, shirts, cars, appliances,
>electronics, and just about everything else in your life.
>Speaking of your life, are you willing to let your lifestyle
>sink to the level of those in Shri Lanka, Bangladesh, or
>other such places? Like it or not, THAT'S WHAT IT WILL TAKE
>TO GET THIS SORT OF PRODUCTION BACK IN THE U.S.! It's a
>fact of life. They are willing to work cheaper and live on
>a LOT less than we are, and no amount of union squalling
>will EVER change that reality. Do I like it? OF COURSE
>NOT! Lets not do Top Flite the injustice of laying the
>entire world economic climate at their feet! Am I for the
>American worker? You Bet! But if we are to maintain any
>semblance of our lifestyle, it will NOT come from
>manufacturing C/L airplanes! (and probably not shoes,
>radios, TV's, or shirts) So much for ECO 101.....
>
>
>
>p.s. A little positive feedback will almost certainly bring
>about improvement in the product, as it has in R/C ARF's.
>Negative feedback will almost certainly make the product go
>away completely. Let's enjoy it while we can, and let the
>free marketplace determine the outcome.

To put this in a real polite way: NONSENSE.
You need to go back to school, and start with History. American workers today work longer hours and for less overall pay than any other group of skilled workers in the world. I'm sorry if that hurts your sense of reality, but it happens to be the truth. If you doubt this, look at the stats, you will find what I said is correct.
There is NO such thing as a "free market place". Once upon a time, we had tariffs on imported goods, just as most other nations with any sense of sanity did. We weren't the cheapest in the world, but we made the very best there was (except for the British), and anybody else who wanted to compete with us had to get better or croak, no matter how cheap their stuff was. The phrase "made in Japan" once upon a time meant the same as "CHEAP" as in "JUNK".
80% of Americans today have a lower standard of living than their parents did- and it is NOT because we are either lazy or greedy. You need to start learing how the fractional reserve banking system works just as a start- that alone is an eye opener. You're in for a royal shock if you believe any of the above nonsense about people in other countries willing to live "down" to a standard. Guess what, it was just a few short years ago that the Idonesians were a powerhouse economy, one of the strongest in the world- in fact they offered to buy out the entire "national debt" of the USA- do you remember that? I do. Where are they now? In the tank, same place Japan is...

I AM in banking, and have been for almost 30 years! And I can assure you, there would NOT BE SO MUCH DISCUSSION OF OVERSEAS SWEATSHOPS IF WHAT I SAY WEREN'T TRUE! Sure, our standard of living is hurting somewhat, and the futurists (self-proclaimed experts) tell us that our standard of living will continue to decline, DUE TO THE PRODUCTION OF COUNTRIES SUCH AS INDONESIA, CHINA AS THEIR PRODUCTION GEARS UP, AND OTHERS WHO PAY THEIR WORKERS LESS THAN WE DO! I agree that American productivity is still way up there, but we can apply that productivity ONLY TO PRODUCTS WITH WHICH WE CAN COMPETE ON A PRICE BASIS IN THE WORLD MARKET! This doesn't say that we are bad and they are good at manufacturing. It just means that they have taken certain markets away from us. We are still the innovators of the world, and that's where we will continue to dominate. The cutting edge of innovation and high tech is HERE. The large-scale ability to manufacture cheaply is THERE. PERIOD.

Let's go back to discussing and enjoying C/L, before this REALLY gets political.

>I AM in banking, and have been for almost 30 years! And I
>can assure you, there would NOT BE SO MUCH DISCUSSION OF
>OVERSEAS SWEATSHOPS IF WHAT I SAY WEREN'T TRUE! Sure, our
>standard of living is hurting somewhat, and the futurists
>(self-proclaimed experts) tell us that our standard of
>living will continue to decline, DUE TO THE PRODUCTION OF
>COUNTRIES SUCH AS INDONESIA, CHINA AS THEIR PRODUCTION GEARS
>UP, AND OTHERS WHO PAY THEIR WORKERS LESS THAN WE DO! I
>agree that American productivity is still way up there, but
>we can apply that productivity ONLY TO PRODUCTS WITH WHICH
>WE CAN COMPETE ON A PRICE BASIS IN THE WORLD MARKET! This
>doesn't say that we are bad and they are good at
>manufacturing. It just means that they have taken certain
>markets away from us. We are still the innovators of the
>world, and that's where we will continue to dominate. The
>cutting edge of innovation and high tech is HERE. The
>large-scale ability to manufacture cheaply is THERE. PERIOD.
>
>Let's go back to discussing and enjoying C/L, before this
>REALLY gets political.

You made it that, I just pointed out it doesn't work the way you said, and it DOESN'T.
Now you know why we once had trade tariffs in this country and why NAFTA and GATT did absolutely nothing for either side. If you seriously believe that the large scale ability to manufacture "cheaply" (for WHOM exactly???) is "there" then you don't hang around south-east Texas much....

Yup, I live in Texas also. You should've grown up in small town west Texas. No free rides, man! You made it on your own or starved!

Your first mistake is equating the workers making noblers to "skilled workers". Sweat shop, buddy, sweat shop.

Once again, don't assume I LIKE losing a lot of production capacity, our steel industry, etc., to overseas producers. But this late in the game, NO AMOUNT OF TARIFFS will level the playing field, without pushing prices so high that even us rich American consumers could not afford the products we would manufacture.

Repeat after me...SUPPLY AND DEMAND...SUPPLY AND DEMAND. Then stop to think that DEMAND is heavily influenced by sales price. If price goes up past a point acceptable to the consumer, whether due to higher wages or tariffs, the products will simply sit on the shelves.

And, I am NOT against tariffs in all cases. If another country is unfairly dumping products, or locking us out of their markets, tariff the @#$%@#$@ out of them. But tariffs imposed only for the purpose of trying to keep wages at an unrealistic level as compared to the competition, is self defeating in the long run. Then the competing countries will retaliate, thinking we are trying to lock THEM out, and they would be right!

Boy that Nobler sure flies good....

Now, THAT'S what I want to hear more about! Tell me more!

>Yup, I live in Texas also. You should've grown up in small
>town west Texas. No free rides, man! You made it on your
>own or starved!
>
>Your first mistake is equating the workers making noblers to
>"skilled workers". Sweat shop, buddy, sweat shop.
>
>Once again, don't assume I LIKE losing a lot of production
>capacity, our steel industry, etc., to overseas producers.
>But this late in the game, NO AMOUNT OF TARIFFS will level
>the playing field, without pushing prices so high that even
>us rich American consumers could not afford the products we
>would manufacture.
>
>Repeat after me...SUPPLY AND DEMAND...SUPPLY AND DEMAND.
>Then stop to think that DEMAND is heavily influenced by
>sales price. If price goes up past a point acceptable to
>the consumer, whether due to higher wages or tariffs, the
>products will simply sit on the shelves.

Excuse me a second here. If nobody has a job, how exactly are we "skilled workers" going to buy any of this cheap overseas made stuff?
Tariffs are on IMPORTED goods Sir, NOT on domestic manufacture! How is that going to push prices higher? Henry Ford had a VERY simple philosophy: "If the guy that I employ to work in my plant to build cars can't afford to buy one, who in the heck will I sell them to?"....

John

PS: BTW, you might find that El Presidente Bush (little as I think of him) recently slapped a hefty tariff on imported steel. The tariff enacted under Ronnie Raygun against the Japanese motorcycle industry blew them out of the water and saved Harley-Davidson (Now H-D has buried the Japanese, and celebrated 100 years- little as I think of them and their current products)...

I think my points were crystal clear to everyone but you. If you insist on the last word, you may have it, sir, you may have it.

>I think my points were crystal clear to everyone but you.
>If you insist on the last word, you may have it, sir, you
>may have it.

Take a look in the mirror dude...

>>I think my points were crystal clear to everyone but you.
>>If you insist on the last word, you may have it, sir, you
>>may have it.
>
>Take a look in the mirror dude...
>
>JAK

PPPPSSSSS....hay jake it's a model airplane not nucler war. HOWEVER,I'm a tradesman (Pipefitter/Welder) and your right about wages.

Scott(retired)Riese

""PS: BTW, you might find that El Presidente Bush (little as I think of him) recently slapped a hefty tariff on imported steel. The tariff enacted under Ronnie Raygun against the Japanese motorcycle industry blew them out of the water and saved Harley-Davidson (Now H-D has buried the Japanese, and celebrated 100 years- little as I think of them and their current products)... ""

You've argued this before, and you always leave out the fact that our government spent our tax dollars to Bail Harley Davidson out when they were making far inferior(still are) products, just like we did with Chrysler, you're just wrong on so much stuff. IF your standard of living is so much lower, why do we all have 2+cars these days? We didn't just 30 years ago. And not only 2 cars, nice cars, used to be if you had a Cadillac it was a status symbol, last year the Cadillac Escellade had the biggest increase in sales of any other vehicle. And our kids don't borrow our cars on the weekend anymore, we've bought them a nice 300hp Camaro, or Mustang with a custom stereo system. Not to mention we all have cell phones, 2 phone lines in our house, paid internet service, paid cable TV(instead of the antennae on the roof most of us used 20 years ago.) Who still buys cars without power windows and power locks? How about Big screen TV's, and eating out at restaurants has surpassed dinner at home, yeah, that's some lousy standard of living we have now, my parents sure had it good when they were picking cotton in Kaufman Texas while in the 8th grade, sure wished we could get back to that. And as for working longer hours for less pay than any other industrialized country, that's how we got to where we are today, hard work.

If another
>country is unfairly dumping products, or locking us out of
>their markets, tariff the @#$%@#$@ out of them. But tariffs
>imposed only for the purpose of trying to keep wages at an
>unrealistic level as compared to the competition, is self
>defeating in the long run.

Says who? What economic philosophy are you quoting anyway?

I hate to break it to you but we survived almost 200 years as a PRTOTECTIONIST society. In fact, all of the parents of the baby boomers, through hard work and sweat and a couple of good wars, doubled or tripled the wages of their fathers in a PROTECTIONIST society. The baby boomers were more than happy to get old and fat on those same wages, and amazingly, now that they are in charge, can't wait to sell their kids down the river so that we can have cheaper consumer products. Ever heard of Germany or Japan? We fought them in the big war. They are probably (along with France) the most protectionist societies on the planet. Their governments simply DO NOT ALLOW cheap imports from third world countries if it interferes with domestic products.

Personally, I will take as unrealistic a paycheck as I can get.

I will be so hapy when the economic playing field of the World Economy will finally be leveled and our kids will be working for a $2.00 a day like in Mexico. Good plan...

Leonard, is there any chance on Heaven or Earth that we could have a Top Flite discussion WITHOUT Geopolitics?

PLEASE!!!!!

Someones been listening to too much Chuck Harder.

I really don't know why I let myself get sucked into this mess. Sorry to all for helping keep the "discussion" going. Politics and religion......

I get sucked in and can't help myself. I apologize to all for my last rant. But I'm taking notes, I'm going to try to convince my wife I need a Nobler for Christmas. Looks like a good, non painful way, to advance from my current ringmaster. I have a brodak warbird I need to build, but it will have a lot of my sweat in it, and more money than the nobler will cost. I'd rather dork up a low-cost arf first.

themouse

"I thought the clips that are on the stock on the bellcrank were a neat idea. They are very strong and designed so the leadout attached to a smooth surface to keep from cutting through. As for the sandblasted type finish on the stock bellcrank, I don't think it will aid in cutting through anything."

WRONG. One clip was strangely mishapen and radically different from the other. The wire they are made frome is very brittle and cracked off rather than taking a cut from my dikes. The protruding end barely stuck beyond the right angle bend that anchored it to the crank. One of them could have easily slipped apart. As for smoothing out that bizarre abrasive like surface... that's an ounce of prevention. No expendature there, just a bit of sandpaper. Have you done some sort of a test on that to be sure it has no cutting qualities? I've seen older planes that had flexible leadouts saw through Fox bellcranks... why isn't the other possible? Tell ya what... I'll finish the thing the way I want and make no more critiques or give any advice. I'm just trying to be helpful. BTW sandblasting creates "pits" in a surface, from my observation what I referred to lies upon the metal.

Signing out. Bye-bye. You guys are too smart for me.

>Have you done
>some sort of a test on that to be sure it has no cutting
>qualities? >Signing out. Bye-bye. You guys are too smart for me.
>
>Alan

May I read your report on it's cutting qualities.

Al,

You've gotten spoiled by that awesome big black Cardinal you fly and its bomb-proof control system. In looking over my buddy's ARF Nobler its obvious those guys have made a great initial effort, but missed the mark in a few spots. Give them some time and they'll get it sorted out. Improving the controls or creating an adequately sized tank should be no sweat for the happy Chinese workers chained to their building benches.....(!)

Thanks for the flowers!

BTW - The black one is gonna get a refinish this winter.... I'll never make another black plane. They really cook in the sun.

My naive part of me offers, notifying Top Flite by mail or e-mail and list your concerns about the kit
might help in correcting these issues in future releases.
If I remember correctly, Top flite has only a couple of employees with control line experience to do testing?

What diameter wire are the leadouts?

Any pictures of these clips?

That's what I wanted to know. I don't have an accurate way to measure, but they appear to be about .018 and no less than .015.
The same thickness we fly with!

I'm leaving mine alone. For 100.00 it's just not worth all the extra work to replace anything. If they break...big deal. I'll buy another one. I've inspected the connections and they are not the best, this is true, but they are acceptable for a 100.00 ARF and will probably last as long as the plane does.

Thank You Top Flite for giving me what I asked for over a year ago. The experts said it would never happen. "I told you so" never sounded so good!

GO FLY and have FUN!

Yeah, that does sound a little small. If they break, it'll probably where all the bending takes place, at the leadout guides.

...it must be more fun to complain than to fix the issue

Some of you guys spend more time carping than simply fixing the problem and pressing on

Catdaddy- I think your correct on the stock leadouts being .018, that's what I came up with.

>Catdaddy- I think your correct on the stock leadouts being
>.018, that's what I came up with.

Thanks CB
Now can someone tell me why these are to small if that's what we use for flying lines?

Good point C-Daddy. I have never seen a cable break anywhere except at the termination point.

My point is this, there is nothing on the Nobler that needs to be changed. People are changing things because it is not done the way they always do it. That's the reason I changed the leadouts on my Nobler, not because the stock ones were no good, but I like mine better.

CB

>My point is this, there is nothing on the Nobler that needs
>to be changed.
>
>CB

Thanks for making that point...I couldn't agree more. They have tested this thing folks. I'm not sure how extensive of a test was done but I'm sure they flew it more than once.

I don't think there is anything wrong with changing what you don't like, but lets not make the impression that it's total crap and must be changed in order to be reasonably safe.

>>Catdaddy- I think your correct on the stock leadouts being
>>.018, that's what I came up with.
>
>Thanks CB
>Now can someone tell me why these are to small if that's
>what we use for flying lines?
>
>regards,
>Rick "catdaddy" Blankenship

Simply because any wear point will wear quicker, anything that flexes will eventually break. We used .025 solid leadouts on a couple of airplanes once (well, once on each airplane). And on everyone we used them on they broke. One broke both leadouts (a Still Stuka) at the top of the overhead eight, the exact place where there should have been the least amount of tension, but the greatest amount of flexing. If these things flex, either at the belcrank (hard point) or at the lines termination, they will break.

I, for one, would suggest switching to larger leadouts as you assemble (half hour job some say, and a couple of dollars worth of material) and insure that the hardware stays together. Then fly it safe and fly it long and enjoy. Matt is closing in on a thousand flights again on a ship that is going strong and starting to trim out a new ship. It is nice to have equipment that works and that you can be confident in. (and not have to wonder "When are those leadouts going to break?")

As far as leadouts go, I will put .032 solids in mine. I don't like cable leadouts. As far as the comment about the bellcrank cutting through the ladouts go, that won't happen. the leadouts will cut thour the bellcrank! Steel is still harder than the aluminum. And with the leadout wires being that thin, they will cut faster! With the bending and flexing that goes on with leadouts, I feel .018 is too thin. I'd go with .032 even with cables. And they will still tend to cut through the bellcrank. You need bushings with cable. That's where the rough edge comes from, not the aluminum that has a rogh finish.
I also once tried .025 piano wire leadouts on a combat ship. That one got splattered big time as both wires broke! Never had a problem with .032s
Bare

>I also once tried .025 piano wire leadouts on a combat ship.
>That one got splattered big time as both wires broke! Never
>had a problem with .032s
>Bare

Agreed. We have never had a problem with .032, either. Matt has gone to .045 on his latest ships, however. It is cheap insurance (a slight weight penalty) for the comfort in knowing that a large plane with a lot of pull can go a thousand flights and beyond without wondering what is going on inside the wing (other than the spar joint, but we won't mention that little "ditty" now, will we?

For a nobler size plane the .032 size (solids) should be fine. But those little guys???

I am building one for a friend of mine. It has taken me more than 4-6 hours to build. But hey I am just plodding along with it. No big hurry.

A good friend of mine, Regular RC flier builder and ARF builder looked over the instructions and said that the Hinge installation is one of the best he has seen. It is more extensive then almost all the other ARF instructions he has seen. He has seen many, he works in a rather large Hobby shop here in Dallas. He spends alot of time in ARF land. Which by the way is amazing! 46% sized Ultimate Bipe, like the one Chip Hyde won the TOC this past year. Fully laser cut and assembled. Many carbon fiber parts! It seems as though the parts(wood) are laser cut here and sent over there for construction and covering. The cowl is awesome! Nice stuff!

Also we looked over the flying instructions. This is also a place where TF could use some positive feedback. They are saying to give full up control as the plane is about to touchdown on landing. This will cause bad stalling and result in a crash. I think I will send them an email about it. My friend at the shop says that the companies are very open to good suggestions on thier models.

Anyway I find it to be a well built model. Better than alot of the stuff I have seen at the field over the years...much better!

The only thing I replaced was the Rear Pushrod. I just think it needs to be more stiff than the one that was in there. There was really no way to get in there and put a trap around it to keep it from flexing so I just changed it to a carbon one and moved on.

For a model with 10 total hours in assembly it is going to be great!

>As far as leadouts go, I will put .032 solids in mine. I
>don't like cable leadouts. As far as the comment about the
>bellcrank cutting through the ladouts go, that won't happen.
>the leadouts will cut thour the bellcrank! Steel is still
>harder than the aluminum. And with the leadout wires being
>that thin, they will cut faster! With the bending and
>flexing that goes on with leadouts, I feel .018 is too thin.
>I'd go with .032 even with cables. And they will still tend
>to cut through the bellcrank. You need bushings with cable.
>That's where the rough edge comes from, not the aluminum
>that has a rogh finish.
>I also once tried .025 piano wire leadouts on a combat ship.
>That one got splattered big time as both wires broke! Never
>had a problem with .032s
>Bare

I don't like cable leadouts either. They WILL saw thru the crank- sometimes in short order. THICK bellcrank and THICK leadouts (solids) is more better!

Just think: At one time we had tarriffs on imported goods and no income taxes, no I.R.S. Now we have no tarriffs (or very little) and INCOME TAXES and an I.R.S. with armed personel!!! Brillant!

Incidentally, I've seen .018" leadouts specified on British plans. This corresponds to the heavyweight Laystrate. What they do, though, is double it up where it goes through the leadout guides. Don't remember the details of the terminations, though.

"sorry for not being tottally clear, the hot rock was ruined because the line that didn't break pulled so hard it ruined the device that holds the line in place, its hard to explain, the lines were connected wrong. I am not sure what caused the first nose over. i think grass, i knew it was nose heavy because i did do some mild climbs and dives.. the only reason i had engine trouble is because this is my first inverted engine and i dont know how to run it,, the controls I put in the airplane were tottally stock, the leadout didn't break, the ring that holds the lead out to the bellcrakn broke.. the handle broke because of the line break, also, i dont know which broke first, lines or leadouts.. hope i've answered everyones questions.. BEN"

Oh well.
Alan

Hey guys!
did you ever build a Berkley kit

Remember the control horn ? The bellcrank? The pushrod !

I never saw a Super Ringmaster that the nose didn,t fly apart
after 30 flights(here in the south, we use water & flour
MIXED THICK!.

Seriously guys I beleive this kit can have a very positive
impact on control line flying if we get together and help make a
few needed changes.

I am really thrilled that T.F. has seen fit to do this.
I hope their thinking proves to be right on.
This is what causes nice flying sites to appear. YES!Long range.