How do you judge 45 degrees elevation??

This one has always bugged me. No visual references for 45 and 90 degrees overhead. Bottoms and intersections seem easy to judge where they should be by using ground references(harder to execute..) but judging tops has always been a lot harder for me. Also, being able to judge 45 deg accurately would also really help getting the 38deg cloverleaf entry right. (something to calibrate to)

How do you expert flyers do it??

Thanks in advance

Greasy Pete

Peter, this may sound too simple.
Stick your arm out straight in the horizontal position, then swing it up to vertical =90 deg.swing. You should be able to judge half way in between very accurately especially if you get someone to stand to one side to check your judgement.

If you do this enough you'll "educate" your arm to know what 45 deg feels like. The model should obviously be a projection of your arm at 45 deg. Fly the model next swinging between horizontal and 45deg. and you'll get used to where it should be.

Now for the judges it's an entirely different problem. The length of the lines used will change the actual height of the model considerably. But that's another thread.

To the flyer 45 degrees is alot higher then you think.

Scott

It helps to have a coach. I judge Matt off to the side periodically. But one check that is relatively easy (again for someone outside the circle) is to check to see that the two circles of the vertical eight are equal in size and that the top is directly overhead. If so, then the intersection will be at 45 degrees. If the rest of the maneuvers are at the same height, you are in business.

Now the flyer will have trouble judging straight overhead, so this is still best done by someone else. But with a little experience you will get the hang of what is right and what isn't.

Yes this is what I've always had trouble with; judging someone elses angles from outside the circle is easy as long as you have some basic geometric sense and you're standing in the right place; but the perspective from inside the circle is very different, including your field of view and peripheral vision; without coaching or feedback, I was wondering if anyone had a way to estimate it; for years I've done it with the 'looks about right' or BSE(British Standard Eyeball) method; it just struck me that there had to be a more accurate way.....or maybe I really am doing it the same way as everyone else;

Any ways to estimate the angle from inside the circle? I've always done it by 'estimating' where over head is and then eyeballing somewhere in the middle. Anyone have a better method? I've always thought this was critical to a really good pattern and dont have a better way to figure it out. Wondered if there was some wisdom out there on this...

Suppose you are a judge standing on the edge of a 70' radius circle. When the flyer takes his ship over the top, at the very apex of the the overhead eight, the judge is looking at an angle of 45 degrees.
(The ship is 70' high and 70' away from the judge.)

When the flyer goes precisely to his 45 degree elevation, the judge is looking at only 17.8 degrees.

Judges must learn to compensate for their viewpoint.

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"I want to have children and I know my time is running out: I want to have them while my parents are still young enough to take care of them." -Rita Rudner

Hi Peter,

This topic has been discussed in previous threads on this forum.

Since it is readily available, it is worthwhile to go back and reread the #3 post Leonard made in this thread. As Leonard suggests, if the loops of the vertical eights appear to be the same size and their tops are indeed directly above the pilot's head, then the intersections are at the 45-degree elevations and this is the size of the round loops of the other round maneuvers (excepting the four leaf clover. A judge, standing outside the circle will have to adjust in his mind for the parallax because the top loop of a properly flown vertical eight will appear somewhat flattened and barely but slightly wider than the bottom loop from a judge's perspective. With practice, a conscientious judge will be able to fairly well adjust from one flight to another and ascertain what the 45-degree elevation is for each flight, regardless of the size of the airplane or the length of the lines.

There is another tool that I also describe during the clinics that I have been involved with. A judge is normally standing on the upwind segment of the circle. The wind is blowing directly from the back of the judge to the center of the circle. It is not difficult for a judge to make an imaginary line from where the judge is standing through the center to the opposite side of the circle. Then, the judge should make imaginary lines at 45-degrees to that center line from the circle center to the outside edge of the circle. These 45-degree segments form a 90-degree segment or a quarter segment of the circle (some real brilliant calculations here). The edges of this quarter segment are the left and right limits of the horizontal eights. If the loops of the round eights contained in this quarter circle are the same size and appear reasonably round to the judge, then the loops are the specified 45-degree diameters and their tops are at 45-degrees. If the other loops of the round maneuvers (excluding the four leaf clover) appear to be the same size as the loops of a properly flown horizontal eight, then the 45-degree altitudes are correct. This altitude is the same for all of those maneuvers that specify a 45-degree altitude. With practice, a judge can visualize in his mind any quarter-circle segment in the circle. It is necessary to do so as a judge will not always be directly upwind of the pilot or directly opposite where the maneuvers are bing flown because the wind might shift or the pilot might bias his maneuvers relative to the wind. As with the vertical eights, a conscientious judge with practice, will be able to establish in his mind fairly accurately what the 45-degree elevation is regardless of the size of the model or the length of the lines being used. That is why conscientious judges with lots of experience and training get paid so much for what they do.

It is advisable for pilots and coaches to place markers at the 45-degree segments of the circle. These are extremely useful in practice to determine how wide the horizontal eights really are. This has been discussed in this forum before with the revalations from many flyers about how tight the horizontal eights must be flown to stay within those two 45-degree segments. (It is my experience that most fliers make their horizontal eights closer to 120-degrees in width and on windy days, their eights will approach 150 degrees. If those loops appear round, then their top altitudes are well above the 45-degree limit specified in the rule book. If the other loops appear to be the same size, then the 45-degree elevations are being exceeded.) It has also been suggested in this forum that Contest Directors could place 45-degree markers around the stunt circles at a contest. Such markers would be useful for most judges to more accurately determine what the 45-degree and 90-degree segments of the circle really are. (This idea has not been well recieved, primarily by those who do not have much, if any, judging experience or feel that judges cannot use the markers as a more accurate tool than their mental visualizations of the 90-degree segments of the circle, regardless of where the markers are relative to the wind or where the judges are standing.) There is a proposal to change the FAI rules to use 45-degree markers around the circle during FAI contests. It will be a real revalation to most flyers how small maneuvers must be to fly within the 45-degree parameters that describe most of the maneuvers.

Peter, you might ask those guys that you sometimes fly with to set those cones out they use to mark the 45 degree segments of the circle. (I think their initials are Ted and Brett.)

The four leaf clover currently specifies the horizontal intersections are to be "approximately 38-degrees" elevation. This is significantly less than 45-degrees. Unfortunately, many of the better flyers in this country tend to fly their four leaf clover loops at least as low as 38-degrees if not lower as specified by the rule book. Even if the 38-degree elevation is flown and the loops are the same size, the tops of the top loops will be well in front of the pilot rather than the tangent points they are supposed to reach on the vertical plane through the circle center. There is an AMA rule proposal to change the entry point and horizontal intersections of the four leaf clover to 42-degrees. This will allow the four leaf clover to be flown with the tangent points as described in the rule book and to have all four loops to be the same size. This 42-degree elevation is not much less than 45-degrees, but definitely not as low as "approximately 38-degrees" and should make the four leaf easier to fly a presentable maneuver and definitely will make it easier to judge, particularly since the four leaf cannot be flown as specified now in the rulebook. Unfortunately, the AMA rules will not and cannot be changed until 2005.

Keith;

Thanks very much; Your suggestion sounds very useful; If I can put out 45 degree cones around the circumference and fly symmetrical manoevers to these cones then I should be at 45 deg for height; this is something I can train with and develop some confidence in my ability to hit 45 degrees and the right shape & height without the training aids in a competition.

Thanks also for the judges perspective on all this; and for taking the time to write it all down; its compiled in my growing list of stunt 'gems' compiled from this newsgroup... I'll make sure I talk to T & B when I see them; which has been a while (my fault).