Arf Noblers

I was thinking about this this weekend when a discussion arose about the Arf Noblers out there. First let me say that I think the Arf Noblers are a cool concept and although I was skeptical at first, I really like them. I don't have one of my own yet, but that may change in the future. My thoughts are that as we make constructive crticism of the plane to Top Flight they will make the necessary changes.

From the discussion arose this thought on my part as being a CD of an event. What happens when somebody decides to strip the blue monokote off the airframe and puts there own finish on the plane. Do you give appearance points or not???? Trust me on this one, I do not want this to be a BOM topic, just a question that I think needs to be answered before it happens at a local contest.

Most pilots would probably tell you it's a recovered ARF Nobler and then you would have to decide if they "built" it. If they don't tell you, it would probably be pretty hard to prove they didn't build it, or re-build it. The CD still has to decide what to do.

Pretty simple he didn't build it..

The other good question is if the ARF Nobler is OTS legal. OTS has no BOM rule, but is the model close enough to the original Nobler to let it in. I'm hoping it is, it would give OTS a boost, and give ARF owners an event to fly in without penalty. Jim D.

>The other good question is if the ARF Nobler is OTS legal.
>OTS has no BOM rule, but is the model close enough to the
>original Nobler to let it in. I'm hoping it is, it would
>give OTS a boost, and give ARF owners an event to fly in
>without penalty. Jim D.

From my understanding the ARF Nobler is a copy of the 57 Green Box Nobler, so how can it be OTS eligible?

I was hopeing by now some one with knowledge of both versions may have taken a ruler to the ARF to see exactly what they copied. Jim D.

I have the ARF Nobler and a 1952 version (MAN Plans )ready for paint. They are very different. The "green box" Nobler is different from the 51/52 Nobler in the tail and wing span, canopy, stabilizer. Side by side they are obvious differences. From 20 feet, it's just "another" Nobler.

Unless they modify the cowl area, it should be a dead giveaway as to whether it is an ARF.

If one were so inclined it really wouldn't take a whole lot to make it an exact copy of the green box Nobler. Build a rudder, fill the top of the motor mounts, make a wood cowel and re-finish. I would almost bet the average person couldn't tell the diference.

I guess the real downside of the Nobler Arf is that it makes all Noblers fall under some suspicion when it comes to appearance points.

If someone goes through all the trouble to fake it, I don't really know what to do. After all they are only really fooling themselves.

Once you strip the covering isn't it much like buying something that has components allready built????

>Once you strip the covering isn't it much like buying
>something that has components allready built????

Exactly the same.

In fact, I would say that a stripped Nobler ARF would be at EXACTLY the same level of completion as a Morris "Quick Build" Cavalier, which is already excepted for use in Advanced and Open at the Nationals.

The precedent has been set. The ARF Nobler, if completely stripped and re-finished would be legal for use in Open at the Nationals.

There simply is no arguing the fact. We already have ARFs in Open, Advanced, and Classic now in the form of the Morris Cavalier.

Is anyone not aware of that fact by now?

>In fact, I would say that a stripped Nobler ARF would be at
>EXACTLY the same level of completion as a Morris "Quick
>Build" Cavalier, which is already excepted for use in
>Advanced and Open at the Nationals.
>
>The precedent has been set. The ARF Nobler, if completely
>stripped and re-finished would be legal for use in Open at
>the Nationals.
>
>There simply is no arguing the fact. We already have ARFs
>in Open, Advanced, and Classic now in the form of the Morris
>Cavalier.
>
>Is anyone not aware of that fact by now?

Careful there Zilla, I opened this can of worms several months ago because I have a QB Cavalier and had always thought it would qualify. Yes it is a fact that QB's have received appearance points at the NATS but not everyone has accepted that as a precedent.

>Careful there Zilla, I opened this can of worms several
>months ago because I have a QB Cavalier and had always
>thought it would qualify. Yes it is a fact that QB's have
>received appearance points at the NATS but not everyone has
>accepted that as a precedent.

What is a precedent then?

VSC then... there are several QB Cavaliers flown there every year.

Obviously no cares at our own NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS so there you go... what higher court is there?

A close look at an ARF Nobler will give a CD enough information to detect anybody fool enough to try to slip one in unnoticed. I really doubt many would try. To make an undetectable fake would entail enough effort to build the real thing from scratch. That sort of defeats the purpose of the ARF. I bet before long there will be unofficial ARF events at many contests, so people can compete with them and not ruffle feathers on CDs.......

>.... enough effort to build the
>real thing from scratch. ......
>Steve

I don't believe this is the metric for deciding if you are the "builder" of the model.

Simple solution!! NO BOM rule, and NO appearance points. Simply a flying ability and trim ability competition.

>From the discussion arose this thought on my part as being a
>CD of an event. What happens when somebody decides to strip
>the blue monokote off the airframe and puts there own finish
>on the plane. Do you give appearance points or not???? Trust
>me on this one, I do not want this to be a BOM topic, just a
>question that I think needs to be answered before it happens
>at a local contest.

Keith,

Of course that situation would NOT comply either with the letter or spirit of the BOM rule. The rule is pretty simple (from the AMA rule book):

" each flier has completely "constructed" the model(s) he uses in competition.....starting with no more prefabrication than the amount used in the average kit. ..."

If someone feels that cheating to enter a model airplane contest is more important than their personal honesty and integrity, then they have my sympathy. From the caliber of individuals that I have met in the model airplane hobby, I don't think there are too many people that would fit into that catagory....they are generally a good bunch of people.

As far as ARFs having established a "precedent" by flying at the Nats, that's a strange situation. I would guess that nobody wanted to be the "bad guy" by protesting, and the individuals just got away with it. I would be very surprised if the CD was aware the planes were prefabricated and felt that they were in compliance.

If violating a rule established a precedent and eliminates that rule, then I guess we don't have to stop for STOP signs or lights anymore!!! <g>

JMHO

Oh for the 'good ole days' when *everybody honored the BOM rule*..sigh.

Cheers.

If someone feels that cheating to enter a model airplane contest is more important than their personal honesty and integrity, then they have my sympathy. From the caliber of individuals that I have met in the model airplane hobby, I don't think there are too many people that would fit into that catagory....they are generally a good bunch of people.

Warren, I would concur with you on that thought.

>If someone feels that cheating to enter a model airplane
>contest is more important than their personal honesty and
>integrity, then they have my sympathy.

Of course model airplane people are generally honest people. I think that has nothing to do with the precedents I have mentioned. If there are guys who are OPENLY flying QB Cavaliers at the highest level and the PRO BOM'ers aren't screaming and protesting every time, then it becomes an excepted thing.

Like buying sheeted foam wings. No one raises a fuss about that anymore, right? It very clearly violates the BOM rule as it is was originally intended.

Maverick once made the point that the "average kit" is an ARF anyway. Maybe he is right.

I will not protest a refinished Nobler anymore than I will protest a Cavalier. Feel free to protest if you wish.

NOT all Cavaliers are quick build kits. Mine is a basic and has a gazillion piecs of balsa. VSC does not have a BOM rule. Not all flying the quick build kits accepted appearance points.

VSC does not have a BOM rule

?? There is no BOM rule in old time at the VSC or elsewhere. There is a BOM rule in classic which would be followed at the VSC. In other words, no appearance points for a non-BOM entry.

I can't speak for the current CD or others who now run the VSC, but at #1 thru #14 the BOM rule DID apply in Classic. In fact we had several entrants voluntarily tell us they did not build the model they were flying.

As most people are aware, the BOM rule does not apply in Old Time.

It isn't about "cheating" it's about if the QB's are accepted under the BOM rule. They have been at the NATS level without nary a peep from anyone. What is different now?

Nothing meant to be disparaging to all the posters, but we gotta stop beating ourselves up over this BOM/ARF stuff. After all, we should be enjoying this hobby. I look at the Nobler Arf as almost a minor miracle (remember I thought the original announcement was an April Fool's joke!), not something to create negative vibes!

This post started out as a question pertaining to a "What if". Not a BOM question. I love the new Arf Nobler and look to have one in the near future. I think it will be a great plane to fly in the backyard!

>Nothing meant to be disparaging to all the posters, but we
>gotta stop beating ourselves up over this BOM/ARF stuff.

Kevin asked a question. I think the answer is obvious due to the precedents I have seen for the last two years, that's all.

I don't think a local CD should DQ someone who would not be DQ'd at the Nationals.

This all stems, frankly, from the complete inability of anyone to define what the heck the BOM rule is anyway. No two people agree on what it means. It is completely subjective due to years of clouding the meaning. It's simply a bad rule that NO ONE WANTS TO ENFORCE ANYWAY. Including me.

IMHO IMHO IMHO

What about the Chinese Skywriter ARF?

Like it or not, (imho) IF the ploliferation of controline ARFS continues controline Stunt's BOM will go the way of R/C's BOM. If you don't agree with me, fine. Just sit back and watch.

>I don't think a local CD should DQ someone who would not be DQ'd at >the Nationals

Again but not to beat this to death, a non builder would be DQ'd at the nats. At a local contest he would lose appearance points only.

The rule book is not a "living document" and provisions for changes are provided to accomodate changes in modeling through the years. Nats precedents would not seem to trump the rules and if a local CD chose to enforce the rules to the letter, I do not see how he could be faulted.

>>I don't think a local CD should DQ someone who would not be DQ'd at >the Nationals
>
>Again but not to beat this to death, a non builder would be
>DQ'd at the nats.

Really?

Please define "non builder" as it is currently defined.

Also, do you mean to say that if I brought an airplane to the Nats, flew into the Walker Cup with it, and then brought it to your contest you honestly feel you would have any luck DQ'ing that model?

In this case, the perceieved reality and actual reality of this situtation have parted ways. I'm through.

>Please define "non builder" as it is currently defined.
The book does it pretty well-no reinterpretations needed.

>Also, do you mean to say that if I brought an airplane to the Nats, >flew into the Walker Cup with it, and then brought it to your >contest you honestly feel you would have any luck DQ'ing that model?

Read closer, no DQ, just no appearance points. I fail to see where, regardless of stature or past accomplishments, precedents, NATS appearances, moon phases, or how much you paid for your wing, that an exception to the rule is provided. Doubt we'll be seeing you at contests around here anyway(in the unlikely event we have any more stunt contests). In the meantime, the non builders/airplane purchasers so far have fessed up and gotten zero appearance points.

>I'm through.
Me too. Please let it die!