Hell Razor Speed plane

Does anyone remember what size engine goes on a Hell Razor Class D speed plane?

Class A McCoy 19
Class B McCoy 29
Class C McCoy 40
Class D ??????

The old alphebet system for engines, at least according to my memory went like this.

A .10-.19
B .20-.29
c .30-.40
d..41-.60

If this is right, your D sized speed ship would have used a maximum of a .60 engine, probably a McCoy, which were the speed engines of choice at the time.

Hi John.
Class "C" included the McCoy 49 engine so I would bump up the class to about .50 cid and take class "D" from there. I have the 1952 AMA rule book around here somewhere. If someone else does not come up with the correct older classification I will try to find the book.

Don Boka

The plans show a Dooling .61

Most "D" Hell Razors that I recall seeing had Dooling .61s, though several used McCoy 60s.

My father was a speed flyer in the late 50's, and I still have two Dooling .61's that have the exhaust stack professionally milled in a contour to fit inside a Hell Razor cowling. Also still have an unbuilt kit. I also vote for the Dooling.

I only recall two Hell Razor kits. One was labled A-B and the other C-D. The engine sizes back then were class A up to .200 CI displacement, Class B was from .201 to .300 CI class C was from .301 to .500 amd class D was from .500 through .65. Both of my kits showed Dooling engines and that is what I had in mine. Dooling .29 in the A-B size and .61 in my C-D size.
Does anyone know of any other sizes of the Hell Razor?

Bigiron

LAST EDITED ON Aug-04-03 AT 08:22 PM (CDT)
 
Ron B.
F4Fguy

As an old(in SO many ways)speed flier who built several Hell Razors When they were"hot",I can say unequivocally that :

Class A=Up to .20 (Hornet.19,McCoy.19,Torp Greenhead.19)

" B= " " .30 (DeLong.30,McCoy.29,Dooling.29)

" C= " " .50 (Triumph.49,McCoy.49)

" D= " " .51 to .65

Thus McCoy,Triumph,etc. .49s were class "C"

Triumph.51s,McCoy.60s,Dooling.61s,and Skydevil.65s,were class "D".

I can say from,personal experience,that any of the latter could be used in a Hell Razor.

I don't know about kits,but I have Hell Razor A,B,C,and D pans in my old speed stuff.They were very desireable because they were magnesium,not aluminum.

>Ron B.
>F4Fguy
>
> As an old(in SO many ways)speed flier who built several
>Hell Razors When they were"hot",I can say unequivocally that
>:
>
> Class A=Up to .20 (Hornet.19,McCoy.19,Torp Greenhead.19)
>
> " B= " " .30 (DeLong.30,McCoy.29,Dooling.29)
>
> " C= " " .50 (Triumph.49,McCoy.49)
>
> " D= " " .51 to .65
>
> Thus McCoy,Triumph,etc. .49s were class "C"
>
> Triumph.51s,McCoy.60s,Dooling.61s,and Skydevil.65s,were
>class "D".
>
> I can say from,personal experience,that any of the latter
>could be used in a Hell Razor.
>
> Ron B.

Which is one of the reasons the Atwood Triumph was made in both .49 and .51 sizes. I have owned both (still have two .51s) and other than the displacement they are identical.

John

>Ron B.
>F4Fguy
>
> As an old(in SO many ways)speed flier who built several
>Hell Razors When they were"hot",I can say unequivocally that
>:
>
> " B= " " .30 (DeLong.30,McCoy.29,Dooling.29)
>
> Ron B.

Geez,
A DeLong used as a speed engine????

I've got one but its a real shaker. Beautiful engine but its not very popular in old timer flying. I've got a Forster .29 that is much more enjoyable to run.

>>Ron B.
>>F4Fguy
>>
>> As an old(in SO many ways)speed flier who built several
>>Hell Razors When they were"hot",I can say unequivocally that
>>:
>>
>> " B= " " .30 (DeLong.30,McCoy.29,Dooling.29)
>>
>> Ron B.
>
>
>Geez,
>A DeLong used as a speed engine????
>
>I've got one but its a real shaker. Beautiful engine but its
>not very popular in old timer flying. I've got a Forster .29
>that is much more enjoyable to run.
>
>Mike

Yep! There is a delta wing Rat Racer design ("Devil Dart", as I recall) in a 1957 American Modeler which used a DeLong .30 for power. It had no wheels either- only three music wire landing/take off skids.

John

> I only recall two Hell Razor kits. One was labled A-B
>and the other C-D. The engine sizes back then were class A
>up to .200 CI displacement, Class B was from .201 to .300
>CI class C was from .301 to .500 and class D was from .500
>through .65. Both of my kits showed Dooling engines and
>that is what I had in mine. Dooling .29 in the A-B size and
>.61 in my C-D size.
> Does anyone know of any other sizes of the Hell Razor?
>
> Bigiron

There was a 1/2A size also as I recall. I'll have to check the old mags to be sure. The design has been around a LONG time and had a long run. I think it came out in the late '40s and ran until Consolidated cratered.

John

John,

I had a half-A Hell Razor. Never did find a good small spinner for it.

Who sells a good quality 1/2-A aluminum spinner?

...Who sells a good quality 1/2-A aluminum spinner?

Dan,
I don't think anyone (in the US) has a spinner smaller than 1.5 inches anymore. The last 1/2A spinners I can recall are the plastic ones that were made by(for?) ACE.

>John,
>
>I had a half-A Hell Razor. Never did find a good small
>spinner for it.
>
>Who sells a good quality 1/2-A aluminum spinner?

I Also had a 1/2A Hell Razor origionally powered with a Holland and then retro fitted with a TD when it hit the market about 1960. It was fun but it wasn't fast. I switched to a design by Warren Kurth and did better.
Dan, the Japanese sold really beautiful metal spinnere that were available from Hobby Shack in the 70's They came in 1/2 and 3/4 and 1 inch increments. Beautifully made aluminum with metal backplate and adaptor. Made of course for the T.D.
I think that i still have 2 of the 1 inch. If your interested and I can find them do you need one?
Dennis

>There was a 1/2A size also as I recall. I'll have to check
>the old mags to be sure. The design has been around a LONG
>time and had a long run. I think it came out in the late
>'40s and ran until Consolidated cratered.
>
>John

It is amazing what searching on Google (Hell Razor Speed) will produce. You get an old Forum from 2002, and, indeed, there was a 1/2A, and others. Also, my old '54 AHC catalog shows an A, B and C Speed also. No D.

When was D Speed dropped by the AMA? Currell

>There was a 1/2A size also as I recall. I'll have to check
>the old mags to be sure. The design has been around a LONG
>time and had a long run. I think it came out in the late
>'40s and ran until Consolidated cratered.
>
>John

I have the 1/2A Hell Razor; this is my second one. I had one in 1956;
with a McCoy .049 diesel(radial mount version)...I only flew it once.
It took over an hour to start it with that darned 4.5" x7" Powerprop
on it.the fuel kept eating my bladder tanks also.
The latest 1/2A Hell Razor is from an original kit, but I copied
all the parts and left the original wood intact. It is not yet
finished, but almost..It uses an Arnie Hende .038cu" Dooling .29(diesel version)
Repro! Unlike the original 1/2A; I've buried the controls within the
wing...not an easy task. I'm also wondering what to do about the tiny
spinner...Veco or Froom actually used to make a 7/8ths" spun aluminum
one..

Circa 1954-55 some of us flew 1/2A versions using OK Cub .074s and PowerMist fuel on 35' lines. Never had one timed, but seriously doubt we ever broke 70 mph. Fun, though....

Mike: You probably are correct re the 70.

At the Musciano Meet, we use Fox .049s and other mild 1/2As, again on 35 ft (two lines), 15% nitro, and the most appropriate Scientific Hollow Logs possible. They get a little over 60 mph. Currell

Tony,

is there any way you can post a picture or that AH Mini-Dooling version. I love those AH miniatures and they would look great on display in a shrunken model.

Several people have made miniature airplanes using these engines but I have yet to see a picture.

Bare was working on one a couple of years ago.

Leon Shulman, designer of the Drone .29 diesel was flying a Mini-Zomby F/F(also his design)in SAM events.

>Tony,
>
>is there any way you can post a picture or that AH
>Mini-Dooling version. I love those AH miniatures and they
>would look great on display in a shrunken model.
>
>Several people have made miniature airplanes using these
>engines but I have yet to see a picture.
>
>Bare was working on one a couple of years ago.
>
>Leon Shulman, designer of the Drone .29 diesel was flying a
>Mini-Zomby F/F(also his design)in SAM events.

HI Dan...unfortunately I am a world class procrastinator, I have already had to do some hanger rash repairs( my cat chewed part of the rear fuselage up a bit!)..It's fixed now and I am still fiting the AH Dooling into the upper cowl..lotsa delicate Dremeling. Remarkably I have test run the engine, It is a fuel hog, and had some quality issues(sorry AH). It runs okay and restarts okay too. As for Barry's project, he has several AH replicas, Oliver Tiger mkIII, Drone and the Dooling .29 ..all miniature replicas. I remember he wanted to build a scaled down Secret Weapon for his Baby Drone. I'd love to see that one. Speaking of Baby repros, Bare and I picked up some ED Racer 2,5cc repro'd to .047cu"..I've run mine(15 min so far) and it handles almost exactly like the 2.5 prototype; very easy and good feedback, turns a 6x3 Master Airscrew @ 14k+ . It sounded much freer turning an APC 6x3(not tach'd)....I will post pics when I can.
Dan, email me if you want more info on those repro test runs... Tony G

Tony,

I did send you an e-mail earlier..did you not receive it?

I need to learn how to post pictures here. There were two separate issues of the AH Mini-Oliver. Totally different.

Re the DeLong 30- Back in the dark ages when speed was popular right after WWII, the only class B engine suitable was the Forster 29, the old version with the rear disc rotor. Nice but not too strong. Speeds up in the eighties and nineties. About 1946, several new B engines showed up such as the DeLong 30, a Cannon 30 and the RB special which upped the speeds some. Then the Torp 29 came out which was a better mousetrap yet and got the models up over 100. Then of course the McCoy 29 and the Dooling 29 which ended up as the top dogs in B speed for many years. Do they still fly B speed??

Yes, they do --- but it's not OUR version of B Speed. They're using things like custom-built Nelson .29s and one-off "Skunk Works" engines for speeds in the high 180s (and more?). Oh, and as I recall, they're flying those goofy-looking assymetrical sidewinder designs. Oh, for the days of Olde! Perhaps we should look into a "Vintage Speed" event???? (The "we" of course being someone else.)

>Yes, they do --- but it's not OUR version of B Speed.
>They're using things like custom-built Nelson .29s and
>one-off "Skunk Works" engines for speeds in the high 180s
>(and more?). Oh, and as I recall, they're flying those
>goofy-looking assymetrical sidewinder designs. Oh, for the
>days of Olde! Perhaps we should look into a "Vintage Speed"
>event???? (The "we" of course being someone else.)
>
>Mike Keville

I understand our British cousins (probably the Oz folks too) are into vintage Speed, also B Team race.

John

Guys, another commercial. In my range I have half size (1/4cc) versions of the Brit. Frog 50, and E.D. Baby. Also 049 (0.8cc) miniatures of the Tiger Cub. If interested check with me for stocks. [email protected]

HellRazor was designed by George Fong. Berkley kitted the C, B, and A versions.

I had the good fortune of meeting George Fong and one of his speed flying buddies "Doc" McKavis. Both were from the New York/New Jersey area. The meeting occured in December 1950 at the Old,old Tangerine Internationals that were held at Pinecastle AFB (since closed) in Orlando, Florida.

We all slept in the barracks provided by the USAF. All of us caught crabs and for the next two days could hardly fly or do anything but scratch. I was so young and stupid that I did not know what I had contacted. When I arrived home in back Alabama I was covered with them, in my hair,eye-brows and every pubic hair on my body.

Mom would not let me in the house. She burned my clothing and stood me naked in the yard while she sprayed me with DDT. Then she prooceeded to shave me under my arms, eyebrows and crotch. The kids in the housing project where I lived never let me forget it.

To this day my mother, now 89, still thinks I slept with some harlot at the age of 15.

Moral of this story: If you run with speed merchants, watch out. grin.

WARHAWK
Hoyt D. Hawkins

This is secondhand with a less than perfect memory, so do not take it too seriously. There was a speed version of the Delong 30. A fairly small number of them were made and placed in the hands of known speed flyers. They suffered from weak conrods, and most were unsuccessful. However, I think one was the first engine to record a speed of over 100 MPH. I have seen one in the hands of a collector, and I think there was one on ebay in the past couple of years.

D speed is still flown.

Kit manufacturer was Consolidated in NYC...not Berkeley. They produced the 1/2A, A, B, and C-D versions.

Hi Warhawk.
In response to message #26. Mike Keville hit it on the head. Could you be thinking of the "Whirlaway" as being produced by Berkeley?
Don't remember how many classes, possibly only one, were made of the "Whirlaway". Currell, where are you hiding? Get out those old Air Trails magazines! Thank you.

Don Boka.

There was more than one "Whirlaway", although I forget how many exactly- the kits featured aluminum wings. The 1/2A version was known as the Mini-Whirlaway.

John

Does anyone have three view drawings for any of the 1/2A speed models?

One day I will go through my old magazines, there had to be plans in some of them.

The full-size plans for Warren Kurth's "Peanut" are in American Modeler, late '50s-early '60s. I have the issue, but forget offhand which year and all at the moment.

John

>Which is one of the reasons the Atwood Triumph was made in
>both .49 and .51 sizes. I have owned both (still have two
>.51s) and other than the displacement they are identical.

Bwa ha ha..

And one wonders where Cox got the idea for the Tee Dee .049 and .051 pair..

>>Which is one of the reasons the Atwood Triumph was made in
>>both .49 and .51 sizes. I have owned both (still have two
>>.51s) and other than the displacement they are identical.
>
>Bwa ha ha..
>
>And one wonders where Cox got the idea for the Tee Dee .049
>and .051 pair..

Interestingly enough, the TD series was designed by Bill Atwood himself for Cox- I think these were the last motors he did.

John

>Does anyone have three view drawings for any of the 1/2A speed models?
>One day I will go through my old magazines, there had to be plans in some of them.

Dan,
Are you talking kit 3-views or scratch built? The Aug 1958 MAN has plans for the 1/2A "Orbit" by Lester Grogan. It uses a metal pan and a Thermal Hopper .049. I can scan it if you are interested.

George,

Sure, just scan it in and e-mail. I have hi-speed internet so i comes in quickly.

Thanks..

Don: My 1954 AHC catalog reveals only two Berkeley Whirlaway kits, the Mini and the Super. The Mini had an 8.25" span and was 1/2A. The Super had 12.5", and was .19 to .29, which made it B Speed back then.

Currell to the rescue. Thank you.

Don.

Sent!