Wing LE buck for Molding

Quality should be good enough for molding, accurate, but not necessarily exceptionally smooth. Cost is important. I already know where to obtain excellent bucks for $40 but this would be too much for bucks shipped with or drop shipped for each kit. At this time I am only looking for information, not committing to sell kits.

The third photo is of a foam buck Frank McMillan made for the BBQB/Millennium. He shipped the buck in its own foam without any additional protection. The photo shows a molded leading edge in place to be ignored. The shipping chargers were minimal Is shipping foam only safe enough or were we just lucky?

Any ideas?

On the foam buck thing, if you are thinking of a maximum of 10 needed, why not mold the leading edges yourself and include them in the kits that way? Then you only need the one buck--the one you already have. Even if you could get these for $20 each or added @20 for your labor in making them, what would be the difference?

To answer your questions, first, I have enough trouble getting away from the TV to do my own building without taking time to make parts for other people. It takes a good bit of time to laminate sheets, wrap and dry overnight and there is still the problem of shipping fragile parts. Mailed foam bucks solves all of the above, and it is a useful building experience and possessing the bucks allows for future use. Doubtlessly, some foam bucks would be damaged in shipment, but if not too large a percentage, it could still be the way to go. The bucks, contained in their own cradles, are very light and pretty strong. It seems worth trying. Any method of shipping molded parts without likely damage is also going to be expensive.

http://www.flyingfoam.com/WhoWeAre.html

http://home.earthlink.net/~philcartier/custom.html

Hi all:

Yes, I have been making leading edge mold bucks for several years as a part of my Lost-Foam wing fixture sets. I can easily make just the mold bucks if anyone wants them. The price is $20.00 per set, plus shipping. I will also have to charge for templates for designs that I don't already have in stock. I have a bunch of templates for most of the popular Classic and AMA stunt models, so check with me first before sending plans. And, shipping them is no problem.

Hope this helps - Bob Hunt

Hi Al:

The leading edge mold buck sets that I provide consist of two foam mold bucks, and their cradles, or "shucks" as some people call them. I use virgin bead, 2 pound per cubic foot foam. I find the heavier foam is far more stable and bend resistant than the one pound foam. I provide them sanded and ready for use. I still suggest that modelers who are new to the molding process glue a luan or plywood backing piece to the rear of the mold bucks so that there is no chance of bending the bucks when wrapping the sheeting down onto them. I've done so many sets of leading edge shells over the past few years (well in excess of 125 sets!) that I don't bother with the backing piece anymore. Robby and I have this process down pretty well.

As you may know, I produce the Lost-Foam Wing Building System sets of foam components, and I also produce completey built wings. In fact (commercial warning) many of the wings that I have built were in models that placed in the top twenty, the top ten, and even the top five at the Nats this year, and for the last few years as well. The wing in David's winning model was built by Dave using my Lost-Foam system. Rich Oliver, Randy Smith, Frank McMillan, Bob Gieseke, Dan Banjock, Bill Rich, Steve Millet, and many others who flew at this year's Nats, either used wings that I produced for them, or built the wings themselves from Lost-Foam system sets that I provided. I mention this only to underscore the fact that Lost-Foam wings are at LEAST as strong as any other type of wing on the planet when built properly, using appropriate materials. The fact that any of the wings (built using a variety of types of jigs and or fixtures)in any of the models that were flown on Friday at the Nats didn't break is testament to our collective good craftsmanship and material selection. Nuff said.

I can provide finished, sanded, molded balsa shells also. These would run in the neighborhood of $35.00 per set. I can mold them from 1/16, .077, or 3/32 inch thick balsa. Tooling charges for new design wings is $15.00. Packing & Shipping varies, but will be sub $10.00 in almost any case to destinations in the continental United States.

Hope this answers your questions, AL. By the way, it was really great to see you again at the Nats. I do hope that you decide to come back to flying in competition again. Your special brand of dedication and innovation is sorely missed by all of us. Yes, we busted your chops from time in the old days, but you know it was all in fun, and you usually returned far better than you received. One of my most vivid memories is of the time that you offered me a "ride" on your Easy-Two-Sugar Mustang. That was eye-opening. Wasn't overly impressed with the cornering ability of that ship, but, oh, did it ever track well through rounds. It was very easy to fly, and, yes, it did look big and scale at the end of the lines!

Give Mia a hug for me.

Bob

Thanks very much for the information. I guess you ship two bucks so that both wing leading edges can be made at the same time. when cost is a factor, it would seem that one would be enough. It is good though to learn of your costs and capability's. I'll certainly keep the information in mind.

I agree with the necessity of keeping bucks straight while molding. If you refer to my third photo above, you'll see that after wrapping my leading edge shell, I add extra wrappings to position aluminum angles to the center of the leading edge and to either the top or bottom of the rear of the buck. This is probably as easy as adding Luan to the back of the buck.

It was great to see you at the NATs. It was really fun to run into so many of my old friends, I mean, friends from long ago, I mean, friends.. what the hell. there is still a young stunt competitor somewhere inside this worthless, worn out shell of a stunt flyer. I like to think I can still design airplanes even if I can no longer rub noses with them.

Glad you remember flying Easy Two Sugar. It had its problems but led to a very much improved version, Snaggletooth, which most flyers of the time thought was a very competitive stunt ship. With a modern engine, Snaggletooth may still be very competitive airplane.

For those who might be interested in photos of semi-scale Mustangs, I used some in my Molding Balsa thread, which, by now, is probably on page two.

Anyway, Bob, come to Dallas and take a ride with the BBQB Bearcat. I had planed that to happen in Muncie, but just didn't work out. I think you'd like it.

The actual shape is not all that important. Close is good enough. The balsa springs back a bit so pins and clamps are still necessary.

For leading edges, a single layer of 1/16" is OK. (probably have to join 2 sheets at edges with Ambroid).. Turtledecks seem to work best with 2 sheets of 1/32" with silkspan between. (I use Titebond thinned out in water).

Al:
Like you,I'd rather spend my time on my projects,but there's an easy way to cut L.E. molds(wings too,if you're so inclined.I use the single point method which only requires one person and one template.It's very simple.You project the taper to it's vanishing point,fasten the wire(I use.021 CL wire as an extension)to a swivel at the V.P.,fasten the root template to the foam,pull the wire taught and cut around the template.The part is generated as a conic section of the template.
There are some things to watch for,such as consistent tension on the cutting wire.I solve this by using a pulley at the pivot,with a weighted bucket attached,allowing tension changes to accomodate different cutting requirements.Also,the relationship of the foam/template to the V.P.has to be carefully established,but this is a one time thing which can be fixtured to the cutting table.
I use 2# "Spider Foam"for all my molds as it has very good compression strength.It also cuts cleanly,seldom needing sanding,but when it does,it sands well.
To go a little off point,but still related,I can't,for the life of me see any advantage to adding anything to the CENTER(pardon the shout)of any laminate.The only loading the center sees is shear,and the adhesive is more than adequate for that.I do a lot of multiple ply stuff,but it's not to gain strength overall(although there's some gain in torsion).the purpose is to allow a"graduated"structure with thinner and thicker wall sections where indicated.Both the F4F,and Zero are 1/20"(0.050")sheet,with three plys from F.W.to the wing H.P..This is to absorb the engine loads and feed them into the rest of the structure.Two of these plys are partially carried to the flap spar location.There is only one layer of 1/20" from there to the stab platform,which is two ply.ALL reinforcing material is either in strategic locations on the inner surface in the form of .5oz. or.2oz.carbon or kevlar,or .2oz. carbon on the outer skin.
While most of my wings are 1/32"sheet over cored foam,I have done a few "home brew"lost foam wings.My "White Profile"utilizes a 1/20"Molded L.E.,and 1/20"ribs,center sheeting and capstrips.This A.C.has been the victim of several cases of,shall we say pilot error with only minor damage to the wing.(I finally lost it when I tried to make it a lawn dart).
My point in all this is that we don't need much of the material that we're carrying around,we just need it in the right places.

Cut the wing in foam, slice it how you want it, and use the patterns to make ribs. Works good with geodesic ribs, but even straight ribs can be cut accurately this way. It is a Bob Hunt term and (unless someone else steps forward to say they were first) he originated the porcess.

I believe Tom Dixon referred to his method of partially planking a foam wing with faux rib caps as Lost Rib (or lost something else?).

I also used the term Lost Byte method in my SN articles about the StuntRib program.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, Bob!

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"GOLF, n:
(1) A futile endeavor to place an insignificant white ball into an obscure little hole, using weapons entirely ill-suited to the task.
(2)A sport wherein one balances a ball an inch-and-a-quarter in diameter on a ball 8,000 miles in diameter, and then tries to hit the small one."

(For the life of me, I couldn't remember Kept Foam! Don't get old..)

As for Lost Foam method, I've never heard anything but praise for it. It makes such great sense to support the wing during construction with foam cradles. So obvious NOW, eh?

Bob Hunt will always have my admiration as a great innovator and communicator.

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"FOG LAMPS, n: obnoxiously bright lamps mounted on the fronts of automobiles; used on dry, clear nights to indicate that the driver's brain is in a fog."

I couldn't agree with you more about the use of materials for strength.

Have you considered the possible ill effects of open cowl flaps on your stunt models since it appears one of your consistent methods of cooling. The corsair buffeted so badly with the cowl flaps open they had to be closed on the landing approach. this is why I've avoided them on my semi-scale airplanes. This is also a heck of a good reason to avoid external mufflers.

Matt has used that for some forms he has made. It was one of those things like "I have got it, it was free, let's try it. And it doesn't go into the airplane, so we are not worried about weight or strength.) He used a plywood backing to stiffen it up.

That's a smart looking profile. Tell us more about it please.

Do any plans exist for it??

Geoff and Steve:

In my usual fashion I originally drew only what I needed to build the prototype.Since then I've added enough to the old drawings to enable someone else to build it(I think!).These are by no means finished plans but most of the info is there.
The airplane,as built,may not be a "legal" profile,as it has thick cheeks on both sides of the nose.the rest of the fuselage is as thick as the rules allow.fuse construction is geodetic 1/2"x3/16"from the flap line back,diagonally sheeted all the way to the ply nose doublers.With the cheeks on both sides this is a very stiff,but also very shock absorbent/resistant fuse.I've never seen any shake from the side mounted engine,nose or tail.
The tail surfaces are all EPP foam with ~50%cut out, leaving a geodetic foam frame which is sheeted with 1/32"sheet.Tail surfaces are also quite thick(NACA 0009).
The wing is equal span with taper in the planform,but not at the high point.There is taper in thickness,as this was a design study for my "scale" stunters,and most full scale AC have pronounced taper in thickness,which is quite visible.
There are no offsets,everything is 0-0.Power is one of my trusty home brewed FP35s with an 11x5 reworked Zinger "prop kit"(thinned and washed in).Fuel is 5%Nitro 22%Oil 50/50.
Whew!!!!, talk about going off the subject!If you need more contact me directly.

Is there any way you can move the molding post from here to my "Making Molded Balsa Parts" post. The information would seem to relate more to that post and the photos would be a very welcome addition to my photos. With your information and mine, your photos and mine will make a post worth bookmarking.

Ron B.
F4Fguy

It's light~1#/cu.ft.,it cuts nicely,it's very tough,and ,most importantly,I had a free supply in hand from cutting wings for an RC friend.
I used 3M Automobile Spray Trim Adhesive #08074.Great stuff,but two caveats;it gets heavy fast(go easy on the application),and locate your parts accurately,you cannot reposition them.