Complaining neighbors- accident potentia...

Today at the local park I had an incident that could have turned ugly.

I was testing out an old Twister and Fox35 combination performing the pattern when all of a sudden I saw a man walk right into the circle strait towards me. I immediately flew the plane at about 45 degrees, asked him to lower himself so I could safely fly the plane and he insisted on standing and verbally assaulting me and complaining about noise, noise ordinances, illegal to fly models etc. All that kind of stuff. I again told him he was creating a dangerous situation and asked him to leave and or lower himself. I feared for his and my safety because of the way he was acting. (probable assault situation). He finally left.

This occurred about 4 pm in the afternoon. About two months earlier, his wife came to me when I was flying in the am and she indicated that he worked graveyard but was up at noon. Since that time I flew the model after noon. But now this situation is becoming tense.

I am inclined to file an incident report to establish a record of his behavior in case of a future incident becuase he had no regard for his or my safety. Further, I suppose I could spend the money and get a distance restraining order to keep him away from me and the planes and also I suppose I could go to another flying location, however it is less convenient. Also, do you fly solo or do you always have someone else to "Watch out for strays and other foolish bumkins?" I was alone at the time.

I earlier talked to the local sherrif office and there is no legal problem to flying in the park.

What is your experience? What have you done in similar situations and what would you recommend?

Bob Smiley
A Lancair 360 builder/pilot trying to be a modeler

Bob,

I don't know about parks in your area but once I was flying on the
county fairgrounds site with permission of the county chairman in
charge of the property. A man and woman started walking around a
corner of blacktop from a grass area and right through the circle. I tried to caution the man that walking through the circle created a
hazardous situation and if the pilot didn't see him in time that
there could be an accident with the plane hitting the pedestrians.
At that, he pulled out his badge and said that he was a Police Officer for the city and that if the plane came near him he would
arrest me for assault. Well, needless to say, I just kept on explaning about the aircraft and that it was impossible to see what was approaching a lot of the time. Well, we did work things out
eventually and they did walk a somewhat altered path after that.
That was quite an evening of flying fun in good old Huntsville, AL.

Jim Pollock

Bob,

Outlining your circle, plus a nice margin for error, with those orange cones used at soccer matches is generally a good idea. I'm sure you've seen these things at several NW contests. Back when we flew at the Kent Space Center one could see a great many of these cones in use.

A few years ago the Red Menace and I were practicing for a Stunt contest with the Mutant Magnum now owned by Helmick. One of Boeing's finest security guards actually drove across the circle while I was flying inverted, parked just outside the flight path and strode on in. Not to make a new friend, I might add.

On the way home I bought stacks of the aforementioned cone thingies, later on bought some more.

Thanks Dan,

I have made 8 6 foot poles, painted them at 4ft, 4ft 6 in 5ft 6 in with bases. I could set them up and also add cones in between to identify the circle. This still doesn't relieve you of liability in event of an incident at least a "reasonable person" would assume that this is an area to avoid during a flying session. Might win a lawsuit but would still have to defend oneself. Does AMA insurance cover such an event?

Bob Smiley
A Lancair 360 builder/flyer trying to be a modeler

Had a similar occurrence. An elderly lady drive right through the circle. I caught her in my peripheral vision just in time to do a quick wingover. I don't think she ever saw me or the plane.

LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-03 AT 10:13 PM (CDT)
 
>Bob,
>
>Outlining your circle, plus a nice margin for error, with
>those orange cones used at soccer matches is generally a
>good idea. I'm sure you've seen these things at several NW
>contests. Back when we flew at the Kent Space Center one
>could see a great many of these cones in use.
>
>A few years ago the Red Menace and I were practicing for a
>Stunt contest with the Mutant Magnum now owned by Helmick.
>One of Boeing's finest security guards actually drove across
>the circle while I was flying inverted, parked just outside
>the flight path and strode on in. Not to make a new friend,
>I might add.
>
>On the way home I bought stacks of the aforementioned cone
>thingies, later on bought some more.
>
>Dan Rutherford

I asked Howard what was the correct number of orange safety cones to have...he said "44". The best deal I found was at "Play it Again, Sam Sports". Yeah, kind of a strange name, but they sell used sports equipment as well as new. Anyway, they had them at $.99 each, and I asked them to order 4 dozen and oh, could I get a discount? Um, well, ok...how's 20% off? Um, well, I guess that will do. It never hurts to ask. I guess this is a chain store, but I have one nearby. I have thought that perhaps this is an item that PAMPA Services might want to consider stocking. I recommend either the full conical cones or the truncated cones, but NOT the "Whiffle Cones" they sell at Wal-Mart. Those have too much drag, not enough weight, and will blow around on asphalt. Steve

Steve,

Is "Play It Again Sam Sports" in the Seattle area? I would like to acquire some cones. I found the small ones here in Silverdale. Ugh $7 bucks each. That is too rich for me.

Bob Smiley

>Bob,
>
>I don't know about parks in your area but once I was flying
>on the
>county fairgrounds site with permission of the county
>chairman in
>charge of the property. A man and woman started walking
>around a
>corner of blacktop from a grass area and right through the
>circle. I tried to caution the man that walking through the
>circle created a
>hazardous situation and if the pilot didn't see him in time
>that
>there could be an accident with the plane hitting the
>pedestrians.
>At that, he pulled out his badge and said that he was a
>Police Officer for the city and that if the plane came near
>him he would
>arrest me for assault. Well, needless to say, I just kept
>on explaning about the aircraft and that it was impossible
>to see what was approaching a lot of the time. Well, we did
>work things out
>eventually and they did walk a somewhat altered path after
>that.
>That was quite an evening of flying fun in good old
>Huntsville, AL.
>
>Jim Pollock
>
>Jim Pollock

He would have had an interesting time trying to explain in court why he "arrested" you because you were trying to look out for his safety. If there is no city ordinance prohibiting model flying on the property, and you had politely tried to explain the safety issue to him, and he still threatened you, then he was in the wrong and you should have filed a complaint with the local PD at the very least. He was blowing smoke at you and trying to pull the "I have the badge and gun" gambit. There are a lot of cops who have wound up in the slammer for doing this to various folks for different reasons thru the years.

John

It seems to me that common sense, if not safety regs, would dictate that the flying area be under fairly strict control, since contact between aircraft and human carries such ugly consequences.

The field I fly at is way out in the middle of nowhere - it takes me 15 mins to get there by car, and there are folks who travel further to fly there. Even so (there is no chance of casual walk-by traffic), there are fences to keep anyone from inadvertently walking through the flying area.

If I didn't have such a well-appointed field to fly at, I would at least be at pains to make sure there was someone there who could "run interference" in the event of something as described above, since there's no safe way to effectively communicate with someone while flying a plane...

Tim

LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-03 AT 10:05 AM (CDT)
 
>
>What is your experience? What have you done in similar
>situations and what would you recommend?
>

One of the major reasons I have not flown control line for these past many years is that I would have to fly alone in public places, with nobody to prevent random passers by from walking into the circle. I concluded that this was an unacceptable risk. If someone is injured by your model, no matter how stupidly they have behaved, you will ultimately be judged liable for injuring them. The risk is just too great IMHO. If there is any chance of some idiot wandering into your flying circle, in a public place, and there is nobody to stop them, then eventually an accident will occur and you will be in big trouble legally. I decided it was not worth the risk. I now have flying sites available which are remote and specifically maintained for model flying, with posted rules etc. So now I can fly. I would never fly alone in a public park, period. I would insist on having a helper to keep people away. Of course, if somebody is combative and will not accept guidance from a helper, it could still get very ugly and dangerous. Somebody with this mind set is not going to give a hoot about your orange cones, and will claim you have no right to restrict access to a public place. What a sad world we live in. But for me the decision is clear: the risk is too great. Never fly alone in a public space.

Just my opinion, and everyone has to make these tough judgment calls for themselves. I in no way mean to be critical of your judgment.

Hey Bob,

I agree with Andrew, although I think it's wrong. People should have to be somewhat accountable for themselves, but that's just not a realistic expectation these days. Take Rutan's experience with liability... How about Cessna, Beechcraft, Taylorcraft, Mooney, blah blah blah.

Your best bet is a flying companion. Myself, I fly at my house in the country, but I'm having problems keeping the dogs out of the circle! Havn't hit one yet, but there's been a few close calls. I gave my son the thumbs up one day, fortunately, HE noticed one of the puppies directly in the takeoff path (that I missed) and didn't launch.

Good luck!

>I agree with Andrew, although I think it's wrong. People
>should have to be somewhat accountable for themselves, but
>that's just not a realistic expectation these days.

WHY isn't it? People today are supposed to be so much brighter and better off than each preceeding generation (hee yuk, hee yuk!).
I see posters plastered all over the walls of each and every one of the schools I am in everyday, reminding the students that actions have consequences and YOU are responsible for what you do...

John

>
>>I agree with Andrew, although I think it's wrong. People
>>should have to be somewhat accountable for themselves, but
>>that's just not a realistic expectation these days.
>
>
>WHY isn't it? People today are supposed to be so much
>brighter and better off than each preceeding generation (hee
>yuk, hee yuk!).

I long for the days when everyone would say "served you right, idiot" when he caught a spinner in the ear.

It is amazing what some people will do to enforce their will upon other people.

I had a security guard threaten to shoot me once because he told me to "turn that thing off now!"

I had a homeless guy in OKC walk right past me (within 10 feet) while I was flying. I was cursing him out the whole time and he never even blinked, just kept walking.

In Columbus I had a guy in a Honda Accord drive right up to me, roll down the window and say, "Man, I gots to get me wunna dem". He seemed offended when I asked him to park his car out of the circle before I ran out of fuel.

All in all, this is your world too. Be prepared for the idiots, they are literally everywhere...

>All in all, this is your world too. Be prepared for the
>idiots, they are literally everywhere...

More amazing are the people who actually vote for them.

Yes, you can buy 2 set of soccer cones. They even sell them at Abertson's grocery stores. I allways use them when I fly at my local park.

Andrew,

It is a sad situation but you are right. It just doesn't seem fair that the bullies always win out even if they use self destructive tactics. I have been in a prior legal battle with a less than honorable individual. Yes, we won our position hearing after hearing but after $50,000 spent what is the benefit of being morally right but recovering nothing from the situation and spending $50,000 to know you are leagally right? Didn't solve or correct the problem but we were right!!!!! shallow victory.

Down with bullies.

Bob Smiley
A Lancair 360 builder/pilot trying to be a civil modeler

The cones and poles are nice, and I wish they always worked, but be aware. I've been inside a roped off, poled and signed area flying only to watch a mental giant walk past the poles, step over the line and walk right up to see what gives. At least he wasn't angry at the time. I also was flying in a parking lot once here in KC. The lot had a single entrance, was long off from the mall and nobody ever parked there. I parked my car across the entrance and started flying. A little old blue hair drove up over the curb and straight up to me to park thinking I was some kind of rotating parking gaurd.

I was polite, she was, well, confused. At least she didn't hit my car when she drove over the curb on the way out!

Dave Ek, DMAA's Secretary, has spent a lot of time and effort with the City of Ft.Worth drawing up a contract with them that gives DMAA members authority to fly in areas of certain parks at certain times. Those of us who fly there have copies of the contract to show to those who would have us not fly. So we've got that going for us- a good thing. The cones have been used with success by Tim Soukup flying combat ships- keeping Joe and Jill Public out of harm's way. I've had two encounters with individuals who demanded us to shut down a sanctioned contest in progress!

Most of you at Arlington for the Wright Brothers Centennial Clinic didn't notice a dopey jogger who ran between circles #2 and #3 and was headed into the pit area. The circles were 80' radius and ringed with orange safety cones, with 20' between circles. Since the cones are all about 20' apart anyway, I thought that would also indicate that he should not go between the circles. This jerk also asked if we had a permit to use this public property (which we did). I was polite and tried to just guide him to safety, and he returned lots of cursing and F-words. Don McClave was a witness, ask him.

I have seen people walk through the line of safety cones at Ft. Dent...they don't understand, don't care, stupid, crazy, whatever. Technically, if you have permission to fly there, you can call 911 and the police should come and cart this guy away. They will ask if anybody has been hurt...suggest that somebody is about to get hurt. Get him charged with "harassment", if you are legal. We are Citizens also, and have just as much right to use a park as anybody else, unless they have the area reserved for an activity. Check with your Park Dept., and carry a copy of the permission letter, if you can get one. Steve

That's our wonderful, if somewhat skewed, legal system at work! At least you know you are right. Broke, but right....

Had the same situation you were talk about. I was teach a Model Airplane Class in my home city, Hercules and had the permission of the Park District to use the park to fly model, even though there proabably was a city ordinance against it.

I was demontrating the pattern for some fo the kids, when a man came up behind me while I was flying a tap me on the shoulders. I was shocked and immediately did what you did.

After that he explain to me that he work graveyard too. I made an agreement with him that we will not start any engine until after 10:00am and that was fine with him.

When dealing with neighbors and the city, you will always loose, so it best to try to resolve with the neighborhood first.

We lost a location in a park in Ft. Worth last year because of an incorrectly applied, dusty ordinance from the mid 60's, which said that it was illegal to fly models or kites in any park traversed by power lines (no matter how big the park or the location of the lines, I guess). In this case, lines were technically outside the park in the freeway right of way. Didn't matter. A neighbor complained on that basis, the police said go, and even the parks official bowed to the policeman's will. Could have been fought, but at what cost? I feel for Bill Wilson an others who spent A LOT of their personal money, time, and effort to level an area and get grass growing at an RC club field, which is only available as long as folks pay dues to a non-C/L related club.

Craig- this is the park that Dave Ek got the permit for, I believe. He put in a lot of time and it has paid off. At first I thought he was on a wild goose chase but he persisted and now we can fly there. Hope you can make the meeting tonight. It's at Mike's Hobby shop. We are having a presentation for Mike Greb for his High point in Racing and Carrier at the Nts. Best regards,

I think Dave has been working on Gateway Park, not the one we got kicked out of. If it's the old one, I'd sure like to know.

Unfortunately, I can't make it tonight. Appointment for new glasses. Since my bifocals (yeah, I admit it) have pretty much become worthless, I guess I'd better keep the appointment. Please extend my congrats to Mike.

I make my noise around 2-3 pm. The people on day shift arn't home yet and, the people on second shift are on the way to work.

You have to establish a clearly marked circle and, it doesn't hurt to be an Atlas man.

If someone comes in my circle, I imemdiatly start screaming at them "GET OUT OF THE CIRCLE! GET OUT OF THE CIRCLE"! and so does everybody else that's there. We're all real butt heads.

This one time a lady, with 5 little dogs on a lease, tried to walk through the pits where the lines were strung out. I tried to stop her very firmly but politely. She started mouthing off and kept going. Everybody got up and started yelling and screaming at her and pushing her little dogs around too. We were still bitchin' back and forth a 1/4 mile away. That's what is takes sometimes to fend off an idiot. We're all real butt heads.

At Whittier Narrows Park, a duly authorized Los Angeles County model airplane flying facility, we still have trouble with bicycles, roller skates, R.C. Cars and pedestrians. We have called the park phone on several occasions with some sucess. But in the end we MUST find a way to avoid an accident, because for a politician, the easiest way to avoid the problem is to ban model aircraft flying, problem eliminated. Be vigilant, and fly with a safety monitor ( usually a flying buddy). At the first sign of yelling and screaming, pull up to 45 deg even if it breaks your pattern. Better than breaking someones body!

For a second there I thought I was reading a thread on an RC Helicopter forum. This is an all too common topic for heli flyers. Its very convienient to fly in a local park because helis need very little room for the most part.

Basically, there are some common guidelines in the many solutions I've read.
1) That you have to make the decision on whether or not its worth the potential fight to fly there.
2) If it is, then the LAST thing you should do is bow down or stop flying there for any length of time. If you stop, then you'll empower/embolden the other party. If fact, some guys have increased activity to show they will not be pushed around. Its a judgement call on your part. Usually the offending party is simply "chest puffing". This is your second run-in so you might want to take it to the next level.
3) This is hardest part because its black and white...... You will or will not fly there. You MUST to go to the landowner and get legal permission or you will not have a leg to stand on either in civil court or with the AMA. If you cannot get permission then you shouldn't fly there. Also, by asking, you now bring your activity into the open. They say ignorance is bliss. As far as beauracracy is concerned this couldn't be more true. Once they are aware you are flying there they can no longer ignore it and as said, its much easier to simply ban the activity.
4) When getting permission, also find out about any noise requirements and abide by them.
5) Make at least some attempt to safeguard your activity. As others have outlined here use cones, tape, markers, helpers or whatever.
6) Definitely establish a pattern of behavior of an offending party. If you are legally able to fly there then they must yeild the right of way if you are there first. If they threaten you, in any way, report it. At least keep a written log of encounters. Once I had obtained permission I would have filed that restraining order.

Lord forbid, but if you should have a lawsuit brought against you I have heard of others of countersuing with reckless endangerment (or something like that) stating that they distracted the flyer preventing him from safely operating the aircraft.

One guy took a friend along with a video camera to document a recurring problem with a dog walker. Appearantly she would let the dog run out and bark at the running helicopter. At one time she was yelling in his ear while he was flying. He then threatened to sue her for animal cruelty for knowingly letting the dog approach the heli unrestrained. Once the walker saw the video camera and the guy explained the parks leash law, she went away never to be seen again.

I say don't give up for one jerk. It sounds like you've tried to work a peaceful solution. If a bunch of people or the whole neighborhood was complaining then that would be another story. But if a guy can mow his lawn next door then I can fly in the park 100s of feet away.

I don't think you will ever really solve this problem I had my cones set up one day at Emerld Downs & a guy flew his RC Helicopter into my circle & landed .To talk about things.A CLer set his flight box in my circle a few weeks ago,I saw a guy park his Semi in Paul Walker's circle a few years ago. ????
A lot of people are not really with it. A loose screw or something I wont make up exscuses for anyone.
John

Bob, You can always do what I am getting ready to do..

Buy yourself a flying field I am in negotiations for 7.5 acres 2 miles from where I now live. It may take me a couple of years to get to the point where I can build a house and move onto the property but that won't keep me from running over there in the evenings and putting up a few practice flights.

I think we have all encountered similar situations while flying in public areas. Contact your local R/C club and see if they will let you cut a circle. That is what I did and they were happy to get the dues. I even broke down and now fly R/C also. By interacting with the club I have converted a few to C/L. At least at an AMA sanctioned field you are flying amongst people who for the most part are aware of the danger involved with model flying. The people at the local public park only see them as toys that pose no danger.

Things and times are ever changing. The days of flying at the local park or school yard are quickley becoming a passing memory. Join an R/C club or get together with other Controliners and lease some land and start your own club. In any case, get off public land! I know we should not have too; however, the peace of mind of avoiding hassles and potential lawsuits makes it worth it.

>I think we have all encountered similar situations while
>flying in public areas. Contact your local R/C club and see
>if they will let you cut a circle. That is what I did and
>they were happy to get the dues. I even broke down and now
>fly R/C also. By interacting with the club I have converted
>a few to C/L. At least at an AMA sanctioned field you are
>flying amongst people who for the most part are aware of the
>danger involved with model flying. The people at the local
>public park only see them as toys that pose no danger.
>
>Things and times are ever changing. The days of flying at
>the local park or school yard are quickley becoming a
>passing memory. Join an R/C club or get together with other
>Controliners and lease some land and start your own club.
>In any case, get off public land! I know we should not have
>too; however, the peace of mind of avoiding hassles and
>potential lawsuits makes it worth it.

I second this. When I moved to my current home in 1996, I went out to the local RC club field and tried to join up. They told me that they had a 100 member cap on membership and to go away. At the time I wanted to try to get a CL circle cut on the property, but since they wouldn't let me join, the point was moot. I got "waiting list" letters for a couple of years and then silence. Eventually I learned that the city of Detroit, who own the land, had increased the yearly rent from something like $600 a year to $6,000 a year. Off came the membership cap! And somewhere along the line, a very nice CL circle was established too. So now they are happy to have the dues from people who want to fly CL. Now there is a very nice CL field near my home maintained just for the purpose. Because of the rural setting, the potential for random walk-ins to the circle is minimal. And there are clearly posted signs with rules for spectators (who are welcome) to keep them out of harms way.

Note that I have not mentioned the name of the club, because I in no way intend to bad mouth them. From my perspective, they have done everything right since our unfortunate first encounter. They run a good show, and I plan to join once I get some models flyable, which is my current project. The control line flyers at this site are first rate, and I have been made welcome by them. This is the *second* CL field on the property of an RC club in our area, so we are truly fortunate. This is the way to get access to good, safe flying fields IMHO.

UPDATE on my Incident.

This AM I went to the local sheffif office and formally filed an incident report regarding the dunce that entered my flying circle while I was doing the pattern. I will record the incident number for future reference.

Also we agreed and the sheriff will make a house call to the offending parties and educate them, Husband and wife. and I hope that will be the end of that.

BTW, When you fear for your safety from the actions of another individual. That is assault. No need to press charges in this matter however, because I think the sheriff talking to them is the first appropriate action.

Now that the record has been established, I will continue to fly albeit with cones, carry a throw-a-way kodak camera to record any misshap or event, if one should occur. and continue flying in the afternoons. The site is a very well managed grass field with soft ground. You can land inverted without a scratch on the plane if that should occur and an engine will very easily survive a nose in dive because of the soft turf.

I hate bullies and can push back. Restraining order???? need to find out how much it would cost. Might be worthwhile.

Yes, Bob, your own private field is great until the neighbors crowd in in 15 years and start complaining then you will have to enter the fray again. Never ending battle.

Bob Smiley
A Lancair 360 builder/pilot trying to be a civil modeler

>Yes, Bob, your own private field is great until the
>neighbors crowd in in 15 years and start complaining then
>you will have to enter the fray again. Never ending battle.

Happens all the time. Look how many people buy a house next to a large full scale airport THEN complain about the noise?

My parent's old neighborhood had a sportsmans's club a few miles down the road. Every weekend you'd hear the pop, pop, pop of the guns firing - just people enjoying their sport.

Real estate developers kept building closer and closer to the club until someone complained they were being shot AT!

Same instance with a major military air base I know. There was a crash zone established around the base decades ago yet developers kept crowding right in. Now the situation is such the military says they may have to close the base - and take over 6,000 jobs with them. See what happens to those property values then...

Understand what you guys are saying but heck I am 59 years old. By the time the property gets encroached upon I won't care

Bob,

Hey, you are almost older than dirt like the rest of us. I suppose you are correct, but then what about your kids ability to fly those toys on strings when they retire on your flying circle?

Bob Smiley

Green with envy! That's what I would love to do. I live over an hour's drive from paved circles, and the local school grounds, etc., tend to be overgrown, occupied by legitimate users, or some of those idiots you talked about. About 2 months ago, a dopehead walked under my lines and I also became a butthead. After the flight, I went over to explain why I yelled, and his reply was, "Uh, what airplane?"

In the sixties we used to fly on a companies sports field - they also had football games going on there - one day a self-important referee decided to walk into the centre of the circle and ask the pilot to 'land this toy aeroplane immediately as it was distracting the players'.

Some people....

Next step.

Called an attorney. Costs about $1,500 to get a restraining order if you use the attorney, however, you can go to district court and file yourself an anti harrassment order. Standard form application and costs about $85 bucks. Fill out the forms, notice is served to the offending parties and two weeks later a hearing is conducted and if successful a distance restraining order can be issued for one year. If the offending party violates the order; it is a criminal action.

I will wait to contact the Sheriff after he has made the visit to the offending parties to determine their attitude and respond as appropriate.

Bob Smiley
A Lancair 360 builder/pilot trying to be a modeler

Years ago I was setting up for the Skyraider's 3x1 contest in Seattle's Carkeek Park - a city park with an officially designated model airport area. I was putting up the stakes and safety ribbon when one young lady complained she wanted to play frisbee with her dog and could we kindly go somewhere else to do whatever we were getting ready to do.

I explained this area of the park was the model airport and we had an official function scheduled to start in less than an hour. She started to whine some more but when another half dozen fliers showed up she saw she was on the losing end of the numbers game and eventually left.

Yeah, I've had kids and dogs come inside the circle when I'm flying - it's not a comfortable feeling. I had my model on the ground getting ready to fuel up and some kid walks up and pushes down on the tip of the stab hard enough to get an audible CRACK sound out of it. After "politely" explaining good manners dictate you don't touch other people's property I had to roll up the lines and leave.

Just to show how crass people are, I was back in the Boston area for some technical training two years ago and went out for lunch one day. There was a sandwich shop a few blocks down the road so I took the rental and parked in the shade of a tree so I could eat in the car and listen to the radio. Halfway through my sandwich, an older guy pulls up in the stall next to me and starts honking for me to roll down my window. He asks if I would give him the shady spot so he can go in shopping while he leaves his dogs in the car. Taken aback at the nature of the request, I told him I would be leaving as soon as I finished my sandwich. Needless to say, I took my time finishing.

I had a simular situation, 2 married couples walked right through the flying circle. As they walked they yelled, "you better not hit us with that thing". DUMB. People don't have any common sense. Would someone walk in front of a freight train then file suit against the railroad for getting run over.

Gary - yes, they would, they did, they were severly injured, they sued and COLLECTED. NY city subway, September, 1976. A guy tried to commit suicide, jumped in front of the train, was not killed, only injured. Suit was for "inadequate waiting passenger protection". I think his wife spilled hot coffe in her lap. They are now relaxing on their 100 ft yatch in the Carribean, waiting delivery of their new Lear-Jet.
Bob

Last year I was flying at a school's activity field. This is a nice flat field of about 4 acres in size and I was using one corner of it. In between flights a soccer team shows up and starts setting up cones and other equipment for practice just inside of where my circle was at. When I approached the coach of the team he was more than happy to inform me that HE had priority on the field and that HIS team was using this spot, since it was the smoothest grass on the field. During my conversation with the coach one of the fathers walked-up and, within earshot of about a dozen 11 year old kids, proceded to tell me to move my F- toys and not to be such a A-h- about them using the field. I promptly collected names, rolled my lines and left. That night I called the soccer commissioner and filed a complaint (I was also signed up as a coach and had direct access to the system and new the rules of conduct). The coach was repremanded for his actions and the father was banned from attending games for the season for using profanity. I'm sure that this went over well with the father since this happened during the pre-season when teams when the teams were not supposed to be practicing anyway. I later found out that the banned father was supposed to have been the Assistant Coach for the team.

Although I didn't win the battle that day I did get some satisfaction from filing the complaint.

There are some problems for us.

Even though we are completely legal and following the law, etc. consider.

1) that unmuffled Fox .35 sound we all love grates on some others.
(Never mind that the sound registers far less in decibels than the passing semi-truck or macho man's tall pickup with glass packs..)

2) common sense is often lacking, as we all have seen, these folks
think they are impervious to harm and want to walk into the circle.
(Ever notice how many want to stand inside the circle in front of
your airplane as they watch you start..)

3) the law can be completely meaningless, you can be innocent, in the right, etc. But some people cannot stand the idea of someone having fun, somewhere, and they can complain!

4) people are so happy to invoke the 'liability' issue, it's very convenient to exclude CL flyers from a public park, claiming the lawyers won't have it.. (Of course, the lawyers don't care whitt
about the ball games being played, the guy practicing golf and leaving divets in your runway, etc.)

5) the very policeman who comes over to tell you about a noise complaint often drives right by while the druggies and derelicts are using the same area. (After all, they AREN'T making noise!)

6) life is grossly unfair at times.

[photo not recovered: 3e69bb3870f12ad5.jpg]

"My girlfriend always laughs during sex - no matter what she's reading." -Steve Jobs

Wow, I had a guy drive his truck through the circle in my circle out behind my house, while I was flying. Some people have no common sense whatsoever. I asked him as he drove by if he had any brains and to stop at the next house and grab a few. I was flying alone and from then on I try to get the wife to at least come outside and do some gardening or something while I fly.

Same thing happened to me at a Mall show. A shuttle bus driver decided the way into the area she wanted was over the curb and through a yellow marker ribbon into the circle I was flying on. When I saw her I pulled vertical and managed to keep calm. I doubt she ever had the slightest inkling of how close she came to death that day, I'd have flown right through the driver's side window into her face. Cones, streamers, ropes, ribbons, barricades, curbs, straight jackets, nothing will save an idiot from him/herself except a guard and even that is questionable. Expect the unexpected and react accordingly.

The NW Skyraiders had a contest years ago at the old Boeing Space Center in Kent. We'd rope off the area and set safety cones in the parking lot when we flew. Sure enough, some guy comes wheeling into the parking lot and plows right through the tape barriers. He did stop and wonder what the h*ll someone had tape strung across like that...

LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-03 AT 02:44 PM (CDT)
 
Hey Bob
The only way to proceed is as follows.

#1. Make sure that you are within your rights to fly at that location.

#2. Make sure the park or city has a noise ordinance on the books.

#3. Make sure that all engines will perform at or below the legal
noise limits.

#4. If you are unsure as to the muffler DB, get a policeman to check
sound level. If your city has a ordinance with a DB limit then
patrol officers should all carry DB meters in their cars. I am
sure if you asked them to check you sound level while flying they
would oblige you.

#5. Getting the local patrol officer involved at the ground level
would go along way and may set in motion a relationship that may
prove advantageous to you in the future. Let the patrol officers
know that you are flying at this site on a regular basis. I would
go as far as to tell him when you would be flying next and tell
him come on out and watch.

The major objective is get the local patrol officers to know you
and what you are doing at the park, that is half the battle.

In reguards to MR & Mrs antagonist across the street. Who knows
what will set them off? If you can't figure it out then ask them
about any complaints they may have. They may just be your garden
variety nuts or like my in laws, constant complainers.

When handling any altercation be courteous and when in doubt be
more courteous. Treat both of them as if they were your 90 year
old Grand Parents go slow and easy.

If your local patrol officers are called and you have complete #5
above then you work will be a slam dunk. If the officers know of
you and are certain there are no laws broken, then the police
will be working for you and not aganist you.

I must say that I did not write this myself, it was a compromise
between my patrol officer and my self. You see my patrol officer
who's name is Jim is a sorry ass R/C flyer and his claim
to fame is that he could not build a straight airplane wing to
save his life. But as R/Cers go he's OK. He wants to fly contol
line but he say he would get dizzy and will fall down.

Well good luck and if this flying site is worth hanging on too,
you will need to do what it takes to keep it

Lets get together and burn some fuel

Mike Clark and Jim the R/C cop.

Mike,

Good comments. I believe there is a noise ordinance. I do not believe the local police have DB meters but you state good ideas which I will follow up on and yes; I am establishing a dialogue with the local sheriff. If fact, Monday I will follow up to see if they have contacted the "antagonists". It would be good to have the motors Sounded out to determine their "Legality".

Yes, it is a great flying field. In fact in 1955-57 it was then only a dirt field but it is where I learned the stunt pattern as a kid. Those were the days.

Bob Smiley
A Lancair 360 builder/pilot trying to be a modeler.

Bob, why don't you bring your Fox/Twister over to Kent next Sunday and get a dB reading? Bring Randy, and get free burgers, too. Dave Gardner bought a dB meter so we could provide specs for the various Park Departments we have been dealing with. If you are interested, email me, and I can email you the map of how to get there. We'll have to notify Dave G. to bring his dB meter. Steve

STEVE!!!! Why don't you post some of your readings from the past.

Scott(a little lower now)Riese

Thanks, Steve however, I will be down in Woodland,CA for the contest there for PA40, Classic and PA with the Excalibur next weekend.

One needs to know what the ordinances specify or we could set up sound levels with and without mufflers at a fixed distance. measurements I think are in DB or DBmv.

Bob Smiley

Since flying at the county fairgrounds has become a hassel, we now fly, with permission, at Madison County High. When there is no flootball that is. One fine Saturday morning I had just got things all set up when an old lady in a mini van came driving up towards me. I moved and she aimed at me again, and I moved out of her way and again she aimed right at me. She finally stopped when I couldn't go any further and asked me where the gym was. I could not believe her. She drove right by the gym and at every high school in America, the gym is the largest part of the school, you can't miss it, unless of course you are aiming at short fat Italians.
We put up cones, large 55 gal barrels, park our vehicles to block any potential drive throughs, but it still happens. Last weekend I got there early and here comes all the pee wee football moms and pops and players. One lady? on the phone, in a huge truck, is driving right at me as I sat in my pickup, in a parking spot, and she stopped at the last second before hitting my truck. It was of course my fault for parking in a designated spot while she wandered with the phone stuck in her ear. She's lucky it's still stuck in her ear. If you get my meaning.

Hi Bob,

Just got back. Was the guy as obnoxious as his wife? I mean, you do have the support of the city council. Maybe it's time to ask the city council for a dedicated site with a fence?