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Diamond Airfoils

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Larry F · Jun 24, 2001 09:24 AM

#0 source
LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-01 AT 07:07 PM (EST)

Gang --

Round-nosed and straight lines connecting the LE to the top and bottom spar used to be used some. These were called "diamond airfoils". Anyone have any experience with these? Any tips? I can't think of specific examples in terms of a name of a design, but I know they existed.

My memory is that at anything over 12% or so, the separation of airflow was not that much different between a "real" airfoil and a diamond airfoil. That is, the separation of laminar flow to turbulent flow was right similar with all thick airfoils, regardless of how pretty the curves or straight lines.

(Edit to delete odd half sentence 6/24)
Larry F

Jake · Jun 24, 2001 09:53 AM

#1 source
They saw quite a bit of use for a period (around the late '50s-early '60s), mostly on Combat ships. The easy to build straight feature was the main attraction.The Dumas "Diamond" and a two or three of Wooten's (among others) designs are examples. There is a good reason you don't see them today; they don't turn worth a hoot.

JAK

faif2d · Jun 24, 2001 10:29 AM

#2 source
A number of the combat planes use a nice curved front end and go flat from the high point. This seems to work well and you get the same ease of building but the plane will turn.

Jake · Jun 24, 2001 11:40 AM

#3 source
Yes Sir. A lot of the Brit. Combat designs of the vintage era use a "flat" airfoil. If you have windy conditions, it will turn nicely. I note the Russkies use the type you are describing quite a bit, and it works very well. The "diamond" is pretty useless on a serious Stunt or Combat model though...


JAK

Jim P · Jun 24, 2001 10:15 PM

#4 source
I flew two or three Wooten "Demon" true diamond airfoil, twin boomed combat ships. They did not turn as well as similar models with more conventional airfoils(Sneeker, etc.). Riley also designed a profile, same or similar 36" wing, diamond airfoil called a "Fury" as I recall. It did not turn too well either

Jake · Jun 24, 2001 11:26 PM

#6 source
That (Demon) is the best known one, as it was a kit. I went totally blank on the names! The Guided Missile was another or Riley's "diamond" designs, in plans form in the late '50s. The Fury was indeed a kit, and there was another kit he had at the same time (similar planform) but I cannot now recall it's name either!
Larry: DON'T expect much from one (diamond airfoil) and you won't be disappointed!

JAK

Larry F · Jun 24, 2001 10:49 PM

#5 source
I can't remember the mathematician who said, "When I die, I have two questions for God. First, why relativity? Second, why turbulence? I suspect God can answer the first question."

Although no one was particularly encouraging, think I'll try it anyway. Any airfoil over 10% has big burbles, ya think? Big diameter LE, and here we go.

Larry F

Bill · Jun 24, 2001 11:27 PM

#7 source
Larry,

Your memory of the performance of diamond airfoils is correct, but like all things aerodynamic there are several caveats. Way back in 1963 two modelers used the wind/smoke tunnel at Princeton to research model airfoils in order to better understand surface turbulation at low Reynolds numbers, and though they were looking toward free-flight relevancy they tried airfoils in the diamond configuration.

As you might assume, separation occured at the high point. This was similar to the results from testing many conventional NACA airfoils. The big surprise was that the diamond airfoils also achieved reasonable critical angles of attack (stall angle)as long as the Reynolds number was very low. Even a small increase in Rn, though, resulted in airfoils that stalled at even a few degrees angle of attack. I suspect this poor stall resistance caused the lack of 'turn' of the combat planes using it. Using a rounded LE should raise the critical angle a few degrees.

By the way, that same study at Princeton proved a few significant things about TE shape too. As many suspect, a sharp TE has no value whatsoever in reducing drag....as a model-size airfoil never achieves laminar airflow that far back. The study concluded that blunt, rounded TE's were very draggy, but that a flat TE of about 1/16" for a 6" airfoil was as good as any.

Bill

Curt Contrata · Jun 25, 2001 07:25 AM

#8 source
The "SLO-MOE" was a profile that had a diamond airfoil and was very popular in my area. The big advantage we saw was that someone who had never built a model from scratch could build one fairly simply. Not only are the ribs simple to cut, but it builds flat on a board. It was not a horrible flier, not any worse than some kits I could name.

Curt

bb36dd966 · Jun 25, 2001 09:36 AM

#9 source
When riley's Demon came out in MAN, I immediately got a set of plans, in fact still have them, and built two of them. Fast, but when it came time to go up jor down sudently, the plane seemed to "stop". Now at times this was ok for combat and I made some kills by the sudden manuever. Usually the other guy flew through my plane and I had to build more. Later I setched to Sneekers and Vodoos and Splinters, etc. The only other Diamond airfoil plane I built was a little 1/4a bug powered by a TD .010. I think it flew. Now with a computer on board you could go with a F-117.

bb36dd966 · Jun 25, 2001 09:37 AM

#10 source
Please read as Suddenly and Switched. &*^%#)_ key board is too small for my big fingers. Need to proof read more carefully.

jobelcrank · Jun 26, 2001 07:00 PM

Combat derived stunt 'foils#11 source
I too tried the true diamond airfoil when Wooten's article came out in the 60's, with the same results as others report.

But, as airfoils go, round nosed foils with straight lines from the high point back, are not Diamond, rather were modified combat airfoils which gained popularity during the 60's and can still be found in use today.

Most of them were developed for ease of building a straight wing in a hurry. The big advantage being they do not need the use of a jig, just a flat surface. They seem to fly as well or better than any other 'foil, so the building advantage helps a lot.

The recently released Pathfinder Profile from Brodak's uses such an airfoil for a stunt ship. It always has used this foil. It was chosen because of the performance on Gordan Delaney's Challenger series of combat ships. The Challenger is and was a great combat ship, even winning the first "Bladder Grabber" in the hands of Jom Womack.

What I most appreciate with this style of foil is the ease of building without the need for any jigging as long as you have a flat surface. As attested by the designs competition record, the foil works very well in a stunter, and for a low time builder who pays attention, straight wings are always the result. If attention is also given to the alignments, weight, and balance, a good performing plane is also always the result.

The constant chord wing does suffer slightly with bouncing in high winds, but that's easily controlled and offset by the ease of building compared to a more complicated wing for the less experienced builders.

Best, John

Bare · Jun 27, 2001 03:23 PM

RE: Combat derived stunt 'foils#12 source
The problem with the flat Engish airfoils, as hinted at in another post (high drag), is the remarkable amount they will slow down in maneuvers. Doesn't matter in stunt, but it will "kill" you in combat!
When they were popular in England, it didn't matter because everyone was using them to the same disadvantage!
The diamond airfoils, to reiterate, stall and park. Lousy airfoil.
The best airfoil shape I have found is a true ellipse with a 2-3:1 ratio L/E Edge to High point of the airfoil. Behind the high point doesn't matter.
Bare