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P-40 Rules

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ash · Aug 12, 2003 04:40 PM

#0 source
I'm working on a 40 sized profile stunter design and I decided that even though I'll probably never be in the right place to enter a P-40 event, I might as well make it compatible with the P-40 event rules for those that do.

Could someone outline the P-40 rules relating to model requirements for me, please?
Clearly a 40 motor and a profile fuselage, but what about maximum fuselage thickness, cheek cowls, engine side cowls, engine mounting, tank location, internal controls and pushrods etc...

Thanks guys.

A.

--Welcome to the only sport where dope is not only legal, but often recommended!

Bob Reeves · Aug 12, 2003 05:13 PM

#1 source
Check this thread..

http://clstunt.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=3677&forum=DCForumID1

Probably more than you wanted to read on P-40 rules..

ash · Aug 13, 2003 04:35 PM

#2 source
Thanks Bob,

Looks like P-40 is yet to be properly defined.
I guess I'll run with the most likely definitions suggested in that thread.
i.e. exposed, side mounted engine, 1.5" max thickness forward of the wing, 1/2" thick aft of the wing, etc...

A.

--Welcome to the only sport where dope is not only legal, but often recommended!

Larry Cunningham · Aug 13, 2003 05:32 PM

#3 source
The AMA rules already describe a profile as up to 3/4" wide aft of the wing..

Also, I don't understand why non-side mounted engines should be precluded..

[photo not recovered: 3e69bb3870f12ad5.jpg]

"Any jackass can kick down a barn but it takes a good carpenter to build one." -Lyndon B. Johnson

Bob Reeves · Aug 13, 2003 07:16 PM

#4 source
Most P-40 rules are local, you know.. typical club meeting... Someone pops up and says "lets only allow side mounted engines". No one even thinks about designs like the Imitation.. So it passes and 5 years later no one even remembers why or how it got in the rules but it is there and by golly we are going to enforce it no matter because that is the way it has always been..

Jim T. · Aug 13, 2003 09:38 PM

#5 source
An extensive double-blind sampling of profile models world wide reveals that 99.84% have a side-mounted engine. (Well, actually,I looked in my shop, where, except for the trainers, all profiles have side-mounted engines.) So it is not hard to understand why many think a side-mounted engine is part of the profile mistique. As said, P-40 is a local event, with rules derived as Bob has explained.

Jim Thomerson

ash · Aug 14, 2003 04:42 PM

#6 source
I've been quite interested in the debate about profile definitions in other threads. One question that comes to mind is - What's the point of a profile-only event if the rules are going to allow designs that defy the whole purpose of profile models in the first place?

It seems to me that the point of building profile fuselages (and I mean sheet fuselage, side mount engine, optional cheek doubler) is not "because the rules demand it" but because its very easy to do right and easy to acheive proper alignment.

In essence, it levels the playing feild somewhat, regardless of building skill. More of a pilots' event than a builders' event.

Sure, you could allow radial mounted engines; upright or inverted, engine cowls, fat fuselages and .65 engines for experts but doesn't that sound alot like a full-on PA ship with exposed cooling fins?
If that was what you wanted from this event you'd just fly another round of PA with the cowls off!!

Consider this. Who is this event really supposed to cater to? Flyers with moderate building skills, or the virtual "Pros" who fly Open PA anyway...

Anyway, just some food for thought from someone with no connection to the event, Have fun with it.

A.

--Welcome to the only sport where dope is not only legal, but often recommended!

Alan Hahn · Aug 14, 2003 04:54 PM

#7 source
uh oh, your're bad, really bad!

kiwif2b · Aug 15, 2003 03:56 AM

#11 source
Hey Adrian,

What are you doing over there, stirring? I got plans for a proper P-40 if you're interested.

Lars

Mark Boesen · Aug 14, 2003 07:55 PM

#8 source
Test post for Mark Boesen..

finch · Aug 14, 2003 10:09 PM

#9 source
>Test post for Mark Boesen..

Roger.. Got you loud and clear.. Over


Finch

Ty Marcucci · Aug 14, 2003 11:35 PM

#10 source
New proposal, tongue in cheek, all P40 events must be flown with side mounted Brodak .40 engines and with the Brodak P40 kit. That would make it the same for everyone and be very boring after the first meet. But the rules would be simple. What say yee lads?? Arrgghh.

Never stunt on an overlean engine!!

John Thompson · Aug 15, 2003 02:25 PM

#12 source
FYI, here are the rules we are currently using for P-40 in the Pacific Northwest.
--jt

NORTHWEST P-40 STUNT

1. PURPOSE: This event is intended to provide a competitive opportunity for fliers of all ability levels using profile-fuselage airplanes limited to .40 engine displacement.
2. All rules for AMA precision aerobatics shall apply except as follows:
3. Airplane: Any profile airplane is allowed.
3.1. The engine may be mounted in any configuration — side-mounted, upright or inverted.
3.2. Doublers or triplers and cheek cowls are allowed, including faired spinners, but the fuselage must meet the “profile” definition of 3/4” thickness by the trailing edge of the wing/flap hinge line, and the engine must be fully exposed from lugs to plug.
4. Engine: Any engine up to .40 size, including four-strokes (no 60% rule for four-strokes).
3.1. Mufflers are allowed, but not mandatory. Any exhaust system is allowed.
5. Lines: Line sizes must follow AMA Precision aerobatics guidelines
6. Pattern: Standard AMA Precision Aerobatics pattern.
7. Appearance: There are no appearance points.
8. Skill classes: Whenever possible, competition shall be divided into two skill divisions, as follows:
8.1. Expert: Any flier may enter this class.
8.2. Sportsman: PAMPA expert-class skill fliers may not fly in this class.

jmt/mwh/dg/FL/11-02/proposal

Northwest rules are coordinated and sponsored by Flying Lines, the independent voice of Northwest Control-Line model aviation. Subscriptions cost $14 per year. Flying Lines, 2456 Quince St. Eugene, OR 97404, [email protected]

dirtydan · Aug 15, 2003 03:50 PM

#13 source
Thanks to John who has posted the rules we use in the NW. The rules seem to work well as evidenced by the number of fliers participating in the few contests we have had so far for this event.

But I don't get it. We already have plenty of Stunt events with OTS, Classic and PA. One can even fly profile models in these events if one so wishes.

One of the more salient reasons put forth in favor of adding the P-40 event was, I believe, attracting new fliers, whether they be off-the-street folk or retreads. I see little positive reinforcement for this view from the entry lists to date; it seems as if many of us who are already active simply pull down a piece which is not even good enough to use in practicing for the event(s) currently being flown, but is good enough to play with should another event pop up.

My personal view is that we have plenty of events with the Big Three, hate to see our promotional efforts diluted by adding a fourth. But if we are indeed destined to support and promote a total of four Stunt events, let's shift gears right now and make the fourth event one designed for ARF Flite Streaks exclusively. (Engines would be open, just the model itself must be of the ARF variety.)

We'd still be flying profiles, obviously; still using something of less engine capacity than .40. Assuming there is indeed some value in these parameters. And there may be, although the logic escapes me.

What we would potentially be adding to the mix is some new people, something I do not see being accomplished--in this area at least--with P-40.

Dan Rutherford

Bob Reeves · Aug 15, 2003 07:34 PM

#14 source
Dan, Tulsa is having "Flight Streak Stunt" at our contest the end of September. Any Flight Streak, any engine. This will not only include the RTF's but all the Streaks hanging in garages.

dirtydan · Aug 15, 2003 08:31 PM

#15 source
Bob,

At first thought, I was against this. The idea ought be centered upon one-design sorts of competition. In this case using the only available option, the ARF Flite Streak.

However, Top Flite has done such a good job with the ARF, I say bring 'em on. Yes, even "trick," scratch-built Flite Streaks. No problem. Because there is no advantage, at least not in the Stunt event. Racing, Combat? Well, we might want to talk about that. Or let those guys do what they see as best.

You might even convince me of the merit in looking at the ARF Nobler in the same light: ARFs against scratch-built, Daddy-built, kit-built; open competition, the only caveat being the sucker has to be a Nobler.

Dan Rutherford

Larry Cunningham · Aug 15, 2003 09:43 PM

#16 source
We should have known that once Dan got a Flite Streak ARF, we'd never hear the end of it!

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"It is simply untrue that all our institutions are evil, that all adults are unsympathetic, that all politicians are mere opportunists." -George McGovern

Phil · Aug 16, 2003 03:29 AM

#17 source
Why 40? The most popular motor size appears to be 46, going on numbers in the shop. I believe there is a line diameter change in the US at this capacity, but we don't have to worry about that. A couple of years ago we held a profile only event at Hastings the day after the Stunt Series round, everyone flew the Sportsman pattern (no squares) but with no K factors. The results were interesting in that the "guns" didn't do as well as might be expected and the lower level pilots (ME)got quite a boost from being competitive. All that would probably change if it was an official event and the top pilots built flash profiles. Back to square one I suspect....... The profile Pizazz design of Owen Rogers with an LA 46 is the current National champion .....

Phil.

This discussion's going round in circles...........!

dirtydan · Aug 18, 2003 05:42 PM

#20 source
>We should have known that once Dan got a Flite Streak ARF,
>we'd never hear the end of it!
>

I have to get some sort of return on my money. And this is it. Well, other than some kicked-back flying.

I mean, look at it from my point of view: I've got a mere $59.00 in the ARF itself, but I'm flying it with a $28.00 handle, fuel is fed from a $15.00 tank, this after using (and rejecting) a NIB Veco T-28 and a $16.00 Tettra tank.

Gird yourself, it's gonna take years to get my money's worth out of you guys.

Dan Rutherford

Larry Cunningham · Aug 18, 2003 05:56 PM

#21 source
I'm not saying Rutherford is tight, but he squeezes a nickel until the Indian rides the buffalo..

[photo not recovered: 3e69bb3870f12ad5.jpg]

"The difference between a violin and a cello is that the cello burns longer.." -Victor Borge

Bob Reeves · Aug 16, 2003 03:21 PM

#18 source
I am thinking the ARF Flight Streak may just have a little advantage, it has a slightly longer tail than the original TF kit and it is probably lighter than most Streaks built from the kit. We included any and all Flight Streaks because those of us who already had one weren't likely to buy an ARF.

I have a TF kit Streak I built upon returning to CL and didn't see the need to buy an ARF. I use it to get the cobwebs out in the spring, which it is perfect for..

I can see the same situation with the Nobler, we are already talking about a "Nobler Stunt" event for next years contest..

Ty Marcucci · Aug 16, 2003 03:35 PM

#19 source
The Nobler is becoming very popular again, it's 1957 all over. Deja vu again. Yah just gotta luv it.

Never stunt on an overlean engine!!