'Model Aviation Is A Sport'

..So at the contest Sunday, I'm talking to somebody about John B. running for Pres. and he say's "..he's not really interested, he's being railroaded into it"..yea right! I come home tonight and there's a package from Brodak, with a little pin promoting the hobby I love, a campaign statment, and a bio. This guy must be going full bore 24/7!...I think he does want to be the next PAMPA pres.

I agree. He must have a death wish (or at least an ulser wish) to want to be Pres of an organization as diversified as PAMPA. But I too received the campaign article and pin. A very interesting bio.
Bigiron

I think John makes some pretty valid points and that he is an acute observer. I'm leaning his way.

I am one of many who prevailed on John Brodak to run for PAMPA president, and it was my privilege to nominate him in Muncie. Let me assure you that he wasn't railroaded. If you've read John's biography I'm sure you realize he's not a person who's going to be railroaded into anything. He's a person who cares deeply about our sport and wants to see it grow. What we need for PAMPA is a president who knows how to grow an organization as John obviously does. I'm confident that as PAMPA president John will lead PAMPA to a new level of success.

Noel Drindak

LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-03 AT 02:03 PM (CDT)
 
>I come home tonight and there's a package from Brodak, with a little
>pin promoting the hobby I love, a campaign statment, and a bio.

I got that too, looks great, except...
I'm not a member of PAMPA.

You should be!

I got one too! and also my ballot came from PAMPA

Hey? who's doing the counting ()
what happens if Fla. needs a recount (couldn't resist)

ok seriously now

John's looks very promising for PAMPA

I suppose Keith will post a plan for PAMPA on the forum
or
does anyone know if he mailed one out like John did.

inquiring minds want to know.

My unsolicited opinion on this subject actually came via a friend and during a recent flying session. The comment was along the lines of, Why would anyone who understands the CL Stunt event and Mr. Trostle's qualifications even consider running against him?

That sums up my views on the election this year, although I needed lots of help in getting it boiled down to such a succint statement.

>>The comment was along the lines of, why would anyone who understands the CL Stunt event and Mr. Trostle's qualifications even consider running against him? Dan Rutherford <<

Hi Dan,
Let me say right off I don't have anything against Keith or any supporter of him I simply don't know him.

With that said your quote and statement are correct, However, in all fairness if one only knows John Brodak shouldn't the same principles apply?

If Keith posts his plan for PAMPA on the forum or mails one out then those who understand the CL stunt event but don't know him can make, as I will quote on another thread "an informed decision".

I believe this is a fair thing to ask for considering a vote is needed.

>My unsolicited opinion on this subject actually came via a
>friend and during a recent flying session. The comment was
>along the lines of, Why would anyone who understands the CL
>Stunt event and Mr. Trostle's qualifications even consider
>running against him?
>Dan Rutherford

Dan,

I agree...While I do know the C/L Stunt event and John's qualifications, and do very much enjoy and appreciate John's contributions to our event (both in terms of his products and his dedication to our sport) I feel that Keith has not only the long-term dedication and experience (Keith is, as you know, one of the founders of Pampa and past president) but the education, background of work experience in an executive capacity, and current credentials to do by far the best job for us as president of PAMPA.

Keith is a pretty low-key guy but has a lot of horsepower and drive to get things done for PAMPA...he definitely has my vote.

Keith made his statement in the Stunt News. I got my Stunt News, the ballot, and the package from John, all in the same mail today. My Stunt News was mailed 27 Aug.
Personally I am torn between the two men running. Maybe one should be Western Pres. and the other Eastern Pres.!??

>I'm not a member of PAMPA.

Ed N.:
Help is on the way. Contact Shareen Fancher at [email protected]. She can fix you up with a PAMPA membership ASAP --- well, after the Team Trials, anyway.

Even better, do as I did, I called Shareen and reenlisted for three years and used my Master Card. Don't even miss the loot, the wife pays the bills and didn't even blink. Maybe she did and missed it. Ha

Going to be a tough choice for sure. Both are well qualified and I feel either one would do a great job. That being said, I would sure like to see what some new blood could bring to the party.

Thirty years ago C/L Stunt was going down the tubes. Kieth recognized this and did something about it. It was called PAMPA. So he's already rescued it once. Kieth doesn't say a lot that doesn't need to be said- just quietly gets the job done. Membership has dropped due to us old guys dying off, poor economy, air terrorism, lots of reasons. Poor representation isn't one of them. If it wasn't for Kieth, we wouldn't have Brodak planes to buy in the first place. Nor would we have Stunt News with such enlightening features as "We have the Technology". That said, we do have good choices with both men- not too many elections have that distinction! Best regards,

I've already said a lot on this. I have the highest respect for John Brodak, he has done wonderful things for our hobby and so has Eric Rule, Randy Smith, Windy and a lot of others. I wouldn’t vote for any of them either over Keith.

The Worlds are in our country next year and this is big. Keith has the experience here, I think more than any one else. It is so important that we have a PAMPA President in office that has the experience to do this right. Keith knows the mistakes made in FAI competition and can prepare for it and be ready. Next year could be one of the most important years in PAMPA'S history. Keith will do this better than John can. If it was any other year it would be difficult to pick but we need Keith in there for the FAI’s. With Keith there it will be better then any country has ever done.

>I've already said a lot on this. I have the highest respect
>for John Brodak, he has done wonderful things for our hobby
>and so has Eric Rule, Randy Smith, Windy and a lot of
>others. I wouldn’t vote for any of them either over Keith.
>
>The Worlds are in our country next year and this is big.
>Keith has the experience here, I think more than any one
>else. It is so important that we have a PAMPA President in
>office that has the experience to do this right. Keith knows
>the mistakes made in FAI competition and can prepare for it
>and be ready. Next year could be one of the most important
>years in PAMPA'S history. Keith will do this better than
>John can. If it was any other year it would be difficult to
>pick but we need Keith in there for the FAI’s. With Keith
>there it will be better then any country has ever done.
>
>Larry Foster

Please explain why next year might be the most important in PAMPA'S history? What is Keith going to do to make next years Worlds better than any country has ever done?

>
>Please explain why next year might be the most important in
>PAMPA'S history? What is Keith going to do to make next
>years Worlds better than any country has ever done?
>
>
>regards,
>Rick "catdaddy" Blankenship

Rick,

Tough question. But only because you ask for specifics when Larry has made a general, non-specific statement.

Still, the answer truly is simply that Keith knows what is required for a top-level competition. And can deliver.

To widen the perspective a bit, every once in awhile, generally while sanding on the latest model or waiting for a turn at the circle, I think back on how much I enjoy CL Stunt, where the event was at one time, how it has first recovered and then blossomed into what we see today. This did not happen by magic. There are specific people to thank. Mr. Tom Morris of course, by dint of his fabulous work on Stunt News. Ted Fancher's leadership. Shareen's hard work on our behalf. Frank McMillan's calm and calming hand as current PAMPA president.

But if asked to name a single source of my current participation in, and enjoyment of Stunt, it all simply must go back to Keith Trostle and the work he has done over the years.

Without a moment's hesitation Keith gets my vote. Nothing at all against Mr. Brodak, kudos to him and his accomplishments.

On the other side, I can't mention a thing Keith has done for me. I also could give a hoot in heck about the worlds being here next year or anywhere for that matter, but if Keith can run that better than anyone else, well, he doesn't have to be Pampa president for that. Perhaps he should just be appointed to the task and let run with it while the Pampa president takes care of PAMPA.

This is nothing against Keith either in the same manner as Dan has said above, just the observations of some guy who is here now. John has given me a statement of his intentions, I've only heard how great a guy Keith is from folks that like him. And I'm supposed to vote from this information, I go with what information I have. And I'm not even going to give my vote to a guy who sent me a nifty little pin, cuzz I don't wear em. But the campaign statement, well that is a different story.

If your a member of PAMPA then Keith has done a lot for you, he is a founder and has been there threw the lean times, put in countless hours of work so we can enjoy what PAMPA is today.

Rick: This was taken from the AMA site. Also if you go back and read some of the articles written in Stunt News by Walker and Fitzgerald it would help you to understand how poorly the worlds have been run.

2004 Control Line

World Championships

The United States & AMA has been awarded the bid to host the 2004 Control Line World Championships. Regarded as one of the largest World Championships the event will be held at the AMA International Aeromodeling Center in Muncie, Indiana in early July 2004. Event management from AMA Special Interest Groups will play an important role in running all events. SIG's involved include: PAMPA, NCLRA, MACA, NASS.

I too received the mailing today. It was especially interesting to me because I was a member of PAMPA for years and no longer am. I think John has hit the nail on the head with his platform statement. Why are so many members like me and have dropped out??
As a manager you do not have to be good, what you have to do is know what good is and appoint the right people to the right places. From John's resume it appears he has this ability. Of course what I think no longer counts because I am not a member.

So where's the debate going to be, are there going to be voting machines and booths.
Wow in my invisions of a SIG I never thought someone would have to send national mailings to Lobby himself. Sounds like the guy with the most money wins.

Steve Fauble,
Why did you quit PAMPA?
Chris McMillin

Stunt is not my thing so the only part of the magazine I was reading was the trailing edge and the few how to articles (and the Dirt's articles for the way they were written). I was not interested in photos of the latest planes. It was just not relevent to my interest in the sport anymore. I know that all of you stunt guys don't want to hear it but I feel the reach of the orginization should be wider than the "pure" stunt crowd.

>Stunt is not my thing so the only part of the magazine I was
>reading was the trailing edge and the few how to articles
>(and the Dirt's articles for the way they were written). I
>was not interested in photos of the latest planes. It was
>just not relevent to my interest in the sport anymore. I
>know that all of you stunt guys don't want to hear it but I
>feel the reach of the orginization should be wider than the
>"pure" stunt crowd.

Steve,
With all due respect, PAMPA is the "Precesion Aerobatic Model Pilots Association". PAMPA is stunt. I'm curious as to why you think the reach of PAMPA should be wider, and what it should "widen" to encompass? I fully understand and support your reasoning on dropping your PAMPA membership. I feel that PAMPA should continue to remain a stunt focused organization.

Maybe some industrious sole should start up a Sport Pilots Association, no I am not volunteering

LAST EDITED ON Aug-30-03 AT 12:50 PM (CDT)
 
It is my view that CL sport pilots are already exceedingly well served by PAMPA and Stunt News. Whether the current, past and future level of support is worth the price of admission is a personal decision, even though I am sorely disappointed in hearing that Steve Fauble is no longer a member.

As witness, even my current Bad Boy Stunt column can be considered as catering to sport fliers as it deals with features and customization of the ARF Flite Streaks.

We in PAMPA cast our net broadly. What would be required to spread it even further while operating under the parameters of an organization fostered to promote Precision Aerobatics--please note the emphasis, as in Precision Aerobatics Model Pilots Association--is completely beyond my limited brain power.

Thanks for your response Steve. I think that over the last two to three years a lot of "hobby" organizations have had a loss of members.

I belong to IAC, the organization that promotes full scale aerobatics in the US through the auspices of the FAI. IAC has seen a drop in members and a lot of time and effort has gone into promoting what they call the "grass roots" aerobatic member. The guy that just wants to do loops and rolls for fun. I think it is a waste of time because when times are good those people sign up and when{economic) times are bad they move away.

One could draw a parallel to the sport flyer in AMA and PAMPA because both are competition oriented organizations. AMA has become more diversified over the years but the emphasis on competition has remained strong enough to keep it a large part of what the US aeromodeling scene needs to remain a player in international competition. It is the sanctioning body for international aerosports for the US through the NAA to the FAI. That affiliation is what makes us "official".

PAMPA is the Precision Aerobatics SIG and is not much else officially.

If John Brodak wants to support C/L aeromodeling as a sport, he can do it in a much more effective way if he would keep the competition focus of PAMPA. PAMPA is the showcase of what any sponsor would be impressed by in C/L aeromodeling. Beautiful models, organized flight schedule, pro looking individuals (well, mostly), these are things that impress people looking to spend money.
Chris...

>Maybe some industrious sole should start up a Sport Pilots
>Association, no I am not volunteering

Yeah, it could be called "CLIMPA" (Control Line Model Pilots Association).

In Christ,

>>Stunt is not my thing so the only part of the magazine I was
>>reading was the trailing edge and the few how to articles
>>(and the Dirt's articles for the way they were written). I
>>was not interested in photos of the latest planes. It was
>>just not relevent to my interest in the sport anymore. I
>>know that all of you stunt guys don't want to hear it but I
>>feel the reach of the orginization should be wider than the
>>"pure" stunt crowd.
>
>Steve,
>With all due respect, PAMPA is the "Precesion Aerobatic
>Model Pilots Association". PAMPA is stunt. I'm curious as
>to why you think the reach of PAMPA should be wider, and
>what it should "widen" to encompass? I fully understand and
>support your reasoning on dropping your PAMPA membership. I
>feel that PAMPA should continue to remain a stunt focused
>organization.
>
>Crist Rigotti
>"A driver trying to be a pilot"

Steve,
Again, with all due respect, I'm still waiting for your response on why PAMPA should be wider and what you would do to widen it.

Crist Rigotti
"A driver trying to be a pilot."

The majority of the columns written in Stunt News are geared for all. Windy’s crash repair articles that he does such a great job at. Dan’s stuff is fun to read, Curtis Shipp always has great stuff in his power train that goes to everyone. Noel Drindak’s articles have excellent stuff for everyone. Mike Keville has great stuff if you like the early years of C/L. The building articles I do are geared a lot towards the sport flier; the tank article was rewritten for the novice and sport flier. I’m currently working on some wing construction article for advanced and expert fliers but next issue will have a simple and fast way to construct a straight wing for everyone. Then you have John Ashford’s Sport Fliers article that he goes a lot into competition and contests on. It all goes hand in hand, I really think Stunt News does a lot to help the Sport Flier.
Most of the guys that write in Stunt News are competition fliers but it’s all-voluntary and the sport fliers can have anything they want to write in there too. If you Sport guys want more sport stuff in there than be a member and write it. There is no limit to the size of the magazine. Stop complaining and write some stuff, it’ll do nothing but make it better.

It boils down to where were going and how do we get there? STUNT NEWS has widened its base to the novice over the last several years, and thats what is needed to get PAMPA growing. Yes, I'm sure Keith would run a great "Worlds" but I think John is going to get the grass roots growing and that is what is needed.
I consider myself a typical PAMPA member, I've been playing with airplanes since I was a kid, probably never make the Expert ranks, but will keep building and flying for as long as I can. I think most of us don't really care about the "Worlds" yes its nice that were hosting it and I'm sure the publicity could help us. But I'm more concerned about keeping my flying field, Getting more people interested in control line. So maybe someday the local hobby shop will carry more of the products I need and I won't have to worry about losing a circle to a softball diamond...I'm voting for Brodak!

I suggest you look at post #29 and #31 in the "PAMPA MATH" thread.

LAST EDITED ON Sep-10-03 AT 05:42 PM (CDT)
 
Is it safe to assume that all of the allegedly disenfranchised PAMPA members that find the stated purpose of PAMPA--ie to promote the Precision Aerobatics event--unacceptable would therefore be willing -- in fact, in favor of -- renouncing PAMPA's SIG for CLPA status with the AMA and support the transfer of that responsibility to a different organization that does embrace such a purpose?

Could we expect your support to remove this burden from the back of the "sport flyers" organization you prefer?

Would you prefer to shed the "PA" from PAMPA and assume a title more appropriate to your goals--say CLSFA, the Control Line Sport Flyers Association?

If so, would you object if those who made PAMPA what it is today respectfully asked that you not only abandon the offensive acronym (PAMPA) but willingly offer it to such a new organization which finds the title completely in line with their objectives?

Just wondering.

I like the way you think, Ted!

Ted,

I think you misread the sentiments of much of us. On the contrary we admire the best of the best in construction and flying. I myself went to Muncie to spectate and do some pit work. Hope to do it again next summer and sure will aim to see the World.

John to me represents an ability to publicize and extent the world of stunt. He apparently has that touch. It’s not about dumbing down PAMPA. It’s about strengthening an organization devoted to competition stunt by continuing to widen membership while keeping true to ideals. I see no conflict here.

LAST EDITED ON Sep-11-03 AT 01:09 AM (CDT)
 
>Ted,
>
>I think you misread the sentiments of much of us. On the
>contrary we admire the best of the best in construction and
>flying. I myself went to Muncie to spectate and do some pit
>work. Hope to do it again next summer and sure will aim to
>see the World.
>
>John to me represents an ability to publicize and extent the
>world of stunt. He apparently has that touch. It’s not about
>dumbing down PAMPA. It’s about strengthening an organization
>devoted to competition stunt by continuing to widen
>membership while keeping true to ideals. I see no conflict
>here.
>
>Dennis Moritz

I'm sorry Dennis, but we'll have to agree to disagree. One thing I'm pretty adept at is understanding the english language and both John's mailing and the tenor of most of the opposition posts on this forum have been clear in their disdain for those who embrace the purpose of PAMPA as clearly expressed in the bylaws.

I'll only remind you that in four pages of campaign rhetoric regarding his desire to be the President of an organization chartered to support and improve competition stunt...CLPA...John mentioned stunt and CLPA exactly once each. In each instance he clearly stated his plan to separate the issues of the "...relative handful of competitive stunt flyers..." from the majority of PAMPA members, essentially asking them to enter (or, perhaps, leave) by the back door.

No, Dennis, I'm afraid the rhetoric of both John and his most vociferous supporters is clearly anti-competitive flyers. The language simply can't be read in any other fashion.

Again, what I can't understand is what more the sport or budding competitive flyer could have asked of the organization. Despite repeated requests for specifics of where the leadership has failed the general membership, there has been nothing. To the contrary, many supporters of PAMPA as it exists now have pointed out the huge progress the average flyer has made in the stunt realm as a result of institutions created and/or modified for their benefit by PAMPA leaders of the last thirty years. Skill classes, established OTS and Classic events, cottage industries galore that exist only because PAMPA has produced a network of customers hungry for their goods and services, every article ever written on stunt available through PAMPA PRODUCTS; and on and on.

I repeat, there has yet to be a single concrete example of how the "average" PAMPA member has suffered as a result of the leadership of those whose vision produced the organization we all want to belong to in the first place.

Dennis, these guys have done a ##### good job of making PAMPA an entity of enough value that special interests would go to great lengths to discredit their hard work in order to hijack it. (and, by the way, gals too. Nobody will ever know how many thousands of irreplaceable hours Shareen has devoted to the well being of their organization...and been repaid by accusations of unethical behavior from insufferable clowns at public PAMPA meetings and thinly veiled attempts to draw her into doing things they can accuse of being unethical as she continues to try to do the job she has done so well for so long)

Dennis, based on John's campaign literature and the outspoken support of his presidency by his supporters on this forum, what exactly is it that you expect John to change in order to make PAMPA more responsive to the average member? What more can the organization do for you than it does now?

Finally, if there is some great, as yet undetermined or unspoken, promise to be fulfilled, what will be the cost. Will PAMPA prosper as a result of being unresponsive and unrepresentative of the needs of stunt's most talented and progressive builders and flyers? Or will John's desire to brush them off to a corner where they can't infect the "majority of PAMPA members" result in the loss of those members to a new organization that does serve their purposes.

I need only remind you that it was the competition flyers who felt strongly enough about preserving the institution of control line aerobatics to take the initiative to form the organization you covet. If it had not been for the Keith Trostles, the Wynn Pauls and the Frank McMillans, PAMPA would not exist. If PAMPA didn't exist, it is likely that control line activity in toto would be so cold that you couldn't take its pulse and stunt itself would be on life support. If PAMPA didn't exist there wouldn't be a cottage industry to support our needs because there would be neither a market place for their goods or a place (STUNT NEWS) to expose them to those who need them. If PAMPA didn't exist and hadn't been made great by the leaders so many now disdain, John Brodak would still be selling only groceries.

That's no pejorative, Dennis. The world needs groceries to feed its belly. The stunt world--from Billy Werwage to Joe Bellcrank--however, needs PAMPA to feed its heart. I fear that when we turn our backs on what made PAMPA what it is, our heart will starve.

Having read and re-read John Brodak's mailing many times, and having read Ted's articulate rebuttals, (and Brett's, and Larry's, and Leonard's) I find that I must retract my statement posted earlier concerning having two qualified candidates. The timing of John's mailing (outside of Stunt News) was such as to bias voter's thinking without Kieth being able to reply in a timely manner. Kieth's campaign statement appeared later in Stunt News- he had to post it before he was aware of John's mailing. The allegations of "they'll take my dues but won't represent me" were just that- allegations. The loss of financial underpinning due to membership decline is not, in fact, fact. I'm in hopes that our voters waited until they got BOTH campaign statements before voting. (I almost didn't.) Best regards

>I'll only remind you that in four pages of campaign rhetoric
>regarding his desire to be the President of an organization
>chartered to support and improve competition
>stunt...CLPA...John mentioned stunt and CLPA exactly once
>each. In each instance he clearly stated his plan to
>separate the issues of the "...relative handful of
>competitive stunt flyers..." from the majority of PAMPA
>members, essentially asking them to enter (or, perhaps,
>leave) by the back door.

Another interesting point. The "Model Aviation is a sport" concept, and the campaign letter's clearly stated desire to demphasize competition are at complete odds with one another. Of course, the "Model Aviation is a Sport" PR has on it's face the absurd notion that one will be able to convince sports reporters that stunt competition is a good thing to put in their articles and sports segments. Given that most sports writers and local TV sports guys don't cover professional events that are thousands of times more popular (like Tennis, motor sports, track and field, etc. ) that have far more saleable events than stunt (which truth be told, is very poor on video, and whose action cannot be captured with still pictures in any reasonable way, and except to those who really care, is about as interesting as watching paint dry. Heck, even I get bored watching stunt flights) is a non-starter.

I can just see going to KPIX Sport Director Dan Fouts (yes, THAT Dan Fouts) and saying, hey, Hall of Fame QB and participant in the greatest NFL game ever, why don't you spend 2 minutes of your 5 minutes sports segment on a hobby that 99.9998333% of your potential 6 million viewers in the Bay Area have never heard of.

Yes, you can get a picture in the "Podunk Times" - the launch of my first-ever competition flight was immortalized on the second page of the "Richmond (KY) Daily Register - but the idea that Stunt will ever get widespread coverage in mainstream sports media is absolute nonsense.

In any case, no one would consider practice flying, or random sport flying, sufficiently newsworthy to report on a regular basis. The only possible "sport" is competition. But, how do you simultaneously resolve the 'it's a sport' idea with the last half of the first page of John's campaign letter (right before the beginning of the equally ludicrous diatribe about PAMPA "select few"/EC/Sekrit Kabal).

Problem is, you can't have it both ways - deempahsizing competition, clearly stated in the campaign letter (despite being at odds with the charter of the organization), and promoting the event as a sport (as unrealistic as the desired end result might be), are incompatible goals that cannot be reconciled.

Before everybody begins jumping down my throat for perceived "bashing", bear in mind that these are issues raised by John himself as a campaign platform. I think that makes a discussion of the merits of his positions, pro and con, and inconsistencies therin, valid issues for debate.

You guys are truly amazing.
Regards,
John Jolley

>You guys are truly amazing.
>Regards,
> John Jolley
>

Thank you for your support!

I don't know Brett, our local guys have coverd Crew, Lacrose, Darts, Horseshoes, etc. etc. Of course it's not coverage like Baseball, Basketball and football where you can get any information on any player up to and including his cup size, but they do put an occasional article up on some pretty silly stuff. At least in this area they have dropped off quite a bit from trying to shove soccer down our throats, now if we could get Hollywood to just give up on that excessivly boaring sport. Never thought there would be anythign more boaring than baseball or tennis, but soccer takes the cake.

Bowling?? Snooker?? Pool?? Poker??

Before I got rid of the local newspaper, I have seen those covered. And I've seen things covered on the TV and Radio.

But around here, the Chiefs and the Royals are the people most worshipped, and I do mean worshipped.

No, it's not. It's a HOBBY.

>No, it's not. It's a HOBBY.
>
>Mike Keville

Ron B.
F4Fguy

Finally,the voice of reason!

I agree with Steve Fauble. After being a member of PAMPA for five years I lost interest for the following reasons. I cannot stunt(but can do several loops and fly inverted). I don't have a group of friends who fly CL, to keep the interest. I cannot dedicate a lot of time to the hobby. I kept sending my money in for a few years, as a matter of cooperation and a sense of guilt(zshould contribute to the hobby, etc).

I respect and applaud all those members of PAMPA who are serious about stunt, and I love the magazine for what it stands for. But some of us just want to fly a little, build a little, and most of all, have fun.
Yes, I know we should not be members of PAMPA!

I wonder how many PAMPA members(or former members) are in the same boat.
Fernando

"Yes, I know we should not be members of PAMPA!"

I wholeheartedly and respectfully DISAGREE! If you want to be a member, if the magazine is of value to you, by all means, be a member! It's your choice. Nobody wants to exclude anyone! I joined 18 months ago (for the first time) in order to LEARN! I hope you and every other sport flyer will join for the same reason. The only issue is that some folks join an organization, and then decide to try to completely re-form the organization into something else. If somebody starts a sport flyer's organization, I doubt if that person would appreciate it if a bunch of competition-minded flyers joined, and then re-directed the emphasis toward pure competition. The by-laws are an open book. There are no secrets, just conflicting preferences. Why do I let myself get drawn back into this!

>I agree with Steve Fauble. After being a member of PAMPA for
>five years I lost interest for the following reasons. I
>cannot stunt(but can do several loops and fly inverted). I
>don't have a group of friends who fly CL, to keep the
>interest. I cannot dedicate a lot of time to the hobby. I
>kept sending my money in for a few years, as a matter of
>cooperation and a sense of guilt(zshould contribute to the
>hobby, etc).
>
>I respect and applaud all those members of PAMPA who are
>serious about stunt, and I love the magazine for what it
>stands for. But some of us just want to fly a little, build
>a little, and most of all, have fun.
>Yes, I know we should not be members of PAMPA!
>
>I wonder how many PAMPA members(or former members) are in
>the same boat.
>Fernando

It's saddens me deeply to hear you say that, there is a lot of time and effort put in to Stunt News to bring you information to help you build and fly. There is this false perception that the articles are for the competition flyers only, if you think about it I don’t need to tell the average competition flyer how to build a fuel tank or wing, or how to make his motor run, ect. People who fly competition respect anyone who picks up a handle weather they can only fly a loop or fly a 580-point pattern. That why PAMPA started the skill classes. The most important part of competition is people enjoying people and the time that is spent together during that competition.
I’ll have to admit lately all the sport flyers saying they fly to have fun and you can’t have fun flying competition. Those that say that have absolutely no clue what competition is all about or what PAMPA has tried to do for them.

>No, it's not. It's a HOBBY.

Of course it is. It's a classic, definitive hobby. Calling it something else as a marketing ploy can work once, but it will not work in the long term.

>>No, it's not. It's a HOBBY.
>
> Of course it is. It's a classic, definitive hobby.
>Calling it something else as a marketing ploy can work once,
>but it will not work in the long term.
>
> Brett

BINGO, Very well said.

>>No, it's not. It's a HOBBY.
>
> Of course it is. It's a classic, definitive hobby.
>Calling it something else as a marketing ploy can work once,
>but it will not work in the long term.
>
> Brett

Yeah right... kinda like NASCAR...
or hunting...or fishing

>>>No, it's not. It's a HOBBY.
>>
>> Of course it is. It's a classic, definitive hobby.
>>Calling it something else as a marketing ploy can work once,
>>but it will not work in the long term.
>>
>> Brett
>
>Yeah right... kinda like NASCAR...
>or hunting...or fishing
>

Well, assuming that this is sarcastic, and you beleive they *are* sports (and I wouldn't necessarily disagree), just look at how hard it is to get media attention to these. NASCAR barely makes the local sports, only as an afterthought to the latest story on "stick and ball" sports hero's drug or legal problems. And NASCAR has the largest cash flow and most dedicated fan base of any sport in America.

Now compare that to a few fringe hobbyists playing with little toy airplanes on strings in the middle of a soybean field in Indiana. And then judge the plausibility of mass-market, mainstream notice. Quadruple the number of participants, and try the same comparison. Then multiply it by 100. And you still don't have as many participants as the average size city's T-ball league.

I'm not belittling the event in any sense. Heck, I've spent far more time on this hobby than most of the posters here - certainly far more than most of those proposing to "fix" it - and I wouldn't have done it or continue to do it if I didn't enjoy it and think I got something out of it. I think the world would be better off if everybody flew model airplanes. But from the outside, we are a microscopic fraction of even the modeling hobbies - never mind that the modeling hobbies are a nearly invisible factor in the so-called "real world", and most people today would never even consider modeling as an activity. And even the most absurd projections for CL growth don't really change that.

This "modeling is a sport" was tried 20 years ago by the AMA - the "greater than golf" campaign was a part of it. John may not even be aware that this happened. It didn't work for R/C with 1000 times the participants and a fantastically larger war chest. We aren't likely to do any better.

LAST EDITED ON Sep-18-03 AT 08:29 AM (CDT)
 
>>>>No, it's not. It's a HOBBY.
>>>
>>> Of course it is. It's a classic, definitive hobby.
>>>Calling it something else as a marketing ploy can work once,
>>>but it will not work in the long term.
>>>
>>> Brett
>>
>>Yeah right... kinda like NASCAR...
>>or hunting...or fishing
>>
>
> Well, assuming that this is sarcastic, and you beleive
>they *are* sports (and I wouldn't necessarily disagree),
>just look at how hard it is to get media attention to these.
>NASCAR barely makes the local sports, only as an
>afterthought to the latest story on "stick and ball" sports
>hero's drug or legal problems. And NASCAR has the largest
>cash flow and most dedicated fan base of any sport in
>America.
>
> Now compare that to a few fringe hobbyists playing with
>little toy airplanes on strings in the middle of a soybean
>field in Indiana. And then judge the plausibility of
>mass-market, mainstream notice. Quadruple the number of
>participants, and try the same comparison. Then multiply it
>by 100. And you still don't have as many participants as the
>average size city's T-ball league.
>
> I'm not belittling the event in any sense. Heck, I've
>spent far more time on this hobby than most of the posters
>here - certainly far more than most of those proposing to
>"fix" it - and I wouldn't have done it or continue to do it
>if I didn't enjoy it and think I got something out of it. I
>think the world would be better off if everybody flew model
>airplanes. But from the outside, we are a microscopic
>fraction of even the modeling hobbies - never mind that the
>modeling hobbies are a nearly invisible factor in the
>so-called "real world", and most people today would never
>even consider modeling as an activity. And even the most
>absurd projections for CL growth don't really change that.
>
> This "modeling is a sport" was tried 20 years ago by the
>AMA - the "greater than golf" campaign was a part of it.
>John may not even be aware that this happened. It didn't
>work for R/C with 1000 times the participants and a
>fantastically larger war chest. We aren't likely to do any
>better.
>
> Brett

According to Webster's
Sport.
...ANY recreational activity; specif; a game, COMPETITION, etc. ...

Call it what you want Brett, for some to call it a sport does not make them incorrect.
PAMPA, the promoter and defender of COMPETITION in CLPA adds to the legitimacy of model aviation as a sport.

In addition
Regardless of popular belief just because it doesn't happen on the left coast doesn't mean it's not happening elsewhere. Just about anywhere east of the Rockies the local coverage of NASCAR on T.V. is much more than it use to be, IMO much more than it should be.

regards,
Rick "catdaddy" Blankenship

>Call it what you want Brett, for some to call it a sport
>does not make them incorrect.
>PAMPA, the promoter and defender of COMPETITION in CLPA adds
>to the legitimacy of model aviation as a sport.

Until PAMPA decides to relegate competition to a "select comittee" because competition issues "do not affect the majority of PAMPA members".

>In addition
>Regardless of popular belief just because it doesn't happen
>on the left coast doesn't mean it's not happening elsewhere.
>Just about anywhere east of the Rockies the local coverage
>of NASCAR on T.V. is much more than it use to be, IMO much
>more than it should be.
>

Right back at ya! Just because it happens on the East Coast, or the Midwest, or (fill in the blank), doesn't mean it's happening everywhere. I might also add that NASCAR is on 2 national broadcast networks and at least 4 cable networks, so in fact it does get covered. But not in proportion to it's popularity.

This sort of regional argument is why PAMPA has *district directors* and representational democracy, instead of a national dictator dedicated to his own micro-concerns. The "Dirty Dan" mini-controversy is a perfect example, but it goes much further back - the "ST60 vs. Tuned Pipe" era, the "out-of-the-blue front-row airplane" phenomenon, "Genie Letter", "Anatomy of a Team Trials" and various other paranoid rantings, up to the most recent "everybody is cheating on BOM so let's delete the rule" arguments. These are tiny, local, micro-issues that because a few people passionately believe them and vocalize them, appear to be big issues when in fact they are not.

That doesn't necessarily mean they are playing them up for effect (although it's obvious that some of the above were pumped up based on an agenda). In fact, when debating these sorts of issues, it's important to simply address the issue, and not the likely motivation, because the motivation doesn't matter. People are perfectly entitled to their opinions.

But decision-making shouldn't be conducted in the "whoever shouts the loudest wins" manner. Just because, say, Bob Zambelli is mad at Dirty Dan and passionate about it (and I beleive his anger is genuine), doesn't mean that we should change the editorial policy of Stunt News to permit censorship. And we didn't. That doesn't mean Bob's opinion was not represented. It just means that it was not adopted because not enough people thought it was a problem. I know that Bob and several of his supporters are mad about that (since I have seen all the letters). That's up to them. It was debated at length, and the issue did not go their way (unanimously against, in fact).

This is just an example, but I beleive that this is the right way to do business. We have a proposal, it's debated among *nationally distributed* representatives, and then we vote. Being overly influenced by the vehemence of the argument shouldn't be a consideration - it should be decided on the MERITS, not the level of passion.

That's what seems to annoy and frustrate the few highly vocal complainers - they keep complaining more loudly and vociferously, and it doesn't have any effect. And I think it shouldn't. Now they have latched on to a well-known name and he appears (based on public statements) to have bought into their "position". He has at least an even chance of winning the election*. If so, we will find out if he's going to be statesman or a "sock puppet" for vocal but minority interests.

Brett

* and no, Rich, I have no idea what the count is as of now, and Shareen isn't telling anyone *since she hasn't begun tabulating yet*. Point your finger, send all the accusatory letters you want, or hold your breath until you turn blue, if you like. But she, and the rest of the PAMPA trustees, will comply with the bylaws AS WRITTEN, whether you and Dixon like it or not. To do anything else would be irresponsible.

End of discussion.

LAST EDITED ON Sep-18-03 AT 04:45 PM (CDT)
 
>> End of discussion.

Good!

I thought the discussion was on whether CLPA was a sport...then wham you cut loose on a rant worthy of any paranoid, about all the past B.S. and apparently it is still bothering you.

You seem to be whining more than anyone else. Maybe you should do what Len asked me to do last week...take a nap dude.

>>> End of discussion.
>
>Good!
>
>I thought the discussion was on whether CLPA was a
>sport...then wham you cut loose on a rant worthy of any
>paranoid, about all the past B.S. and apparently it is still
>bothering you.

Correct, assuming you define "past B.S." as "two days ago", and "whining" as "defending the honor of the PAMPA volunteer who spends the most time and effort of anyone to make the organization run from accusations of cheating on the election" (even before the results are known).

Model airplanes aren't worth getting upset over. This is not about model airplanes. This is about someone working nearly full time for years in a manner FAR ABOVE REPROACH and getting accused of cheating for her trouble. That IS worth getting upset over, to me, anyway.

You guys have simply *NO CONCEPT* of the amount of cr*p that goes on in the background.

It was an inside reference, so I apologize for that aspect of it - not the rest.

Most of them have no idea what Shareen has done for PAMPA and what she has put up with. She has no underlying motives, she is one of the most honest people I have ever met.

I've said it before, "Be careful what you wish for you may get it". If the old guard leaves who’s going to do the work. The people who are pushing and complaining about PAMPA, the Old Guard and wanting a change will not step up when the time comes. History of contributions shows that.

Certain sports are local. Down here in grit land, NASCAR is god. followed by college football and then fishing, then making methamphetamine. Wish it weren't so. Can't wait to get out west.

>Certain sports are local. Down here in grit land, NASCAR is
>god. followed by college football and then fishing, then
>making methamphetamine. Wish it weren't so. Can't wait to
>get out west.

Ya know guy’s let me tell you a little story about a true Sport. In 1990 Don Hutchinson introduced me to a child hood hero, “Bobby Allison”. Threw that I became a good friend of Bobby’s. In Phoenix in 1996 we were standing on top of his Hauler watching Winston Cup practice and there were over 50,000 people in the stands for practice and the Truck Race. He said” look at all those people, who would have thought it would turn into this. Just think in 1978 we only had 30,000 people at the Daytona 500.” There were 130,000 on Sunday for the cup race.
When we have 1/10 of that at the nationals to watch us fly a pattern then I’ll call it a sport. Until then I’ll leave it to the Ad agents and merchandisers to call it a sport.

HOBBY Golf
Fishing
Tennis

There are hundreds of thousands of people that pay to do this with
no recognition.
There are minescule percentages of people that make money and achieve
fame doing these things.
Sorta like P.A. except the small percentages do not makee money in PA.

As with the above , the large percentages make the small percentages look good.
Confusing aint it.
One of the large percentages
Charlie PATE

LAST EDITED ON Sep-17-03 AT 10:31 PM (CDT)
 
>At least in this area they have
>dropped off quite a bit from trying to shove soccer down our
>throats, now if we could get Hollywood to just give up on
>that excessivly boaring sport. Never thought there would be
>anythign more boaring than baseball or tennis, but soccer
>takes the cake.

ROFL!!!!

I have heard soccer (er, football) fanatics (of which I am not one) say that Americans need instant gratification, that they HAVE to have sports that run up huge scores (like American football and basketball - small scores are boring), that their attention spans are so short that the action has to be broken up into tiny slices of time, with numerous time-outs...

Though I must say, I'm not a football or basketball fan either, though I like to watch tennis occasionally. THE most gripping, nail-biting sport I've EVER seen on TV, believe it or not, was America's Cup yacht racing. You never know what will happen in the next minute - things break, ropes jam, the wind changes, someone messes up.. nothing's ever guaranteed until the boats reach the finish.

If you think watching sailing boats racing is fun, just crew on one.

>I have heard soccer (er, football) fanatics (of which I am
>not one) say that Americans need instant gratification, that
>they HAVE to have sports that run up huge scores (like
>American football and basketball - small scores are boring),
>that their attention spans are so short that the action has
>to be broken up into tiny slices of time, with numerous
>time-outs...

Instant Gratification? What were thier names again, FatMan and LittleBoy...

Sailboat racing would be a lot more exciting with mines and u-boats just to spice things up. Oh, we might lose a rich boy or two, but those suckers reproduce like cockroaches or worse, lawyers!

I'm not a big fan of any sport where I'm required to lay down money to watch someone else play. To heck with that. I'll plop my money down to improve myself. Not some spoiled brat that has to decide between another Royles Royce or a trip down to the hood to lay some bling bling on the whatever ya callit.

Now, those weren't instant. Took a lot of work to get them right!

>>At least in this area they have
>>dropped off quite a bit from trying to shove soccer down our
>>throats, now if we could get Hollywood to just give up on
>>that excessivly boaring sport. Never thought there would be
>>anythign more boaring than baseball or tennis, but soccer
>>takes the cake.
>
>ROFL!!!!
>
>I have heard soccer (er, football) fanatics (of which I am
>not one) say that Americans need instant gratification, that
>they HAVE to have sports that run up huge scores (like
>American football and basketball - small scores are boring),
>that their attention spans are so short that the action has
>to be broken up into tiny slices of time, with numerous
>time-outs...
>
>Though I must say, I'm not a football or basketball fan
>either, though I like to watch tennis occasionally. THE most
>gripping, nail-biting sport I've EVER seen on TV, believe it
>or not, was America's Cup yacht racing. You never know what
>will happen in the next minute - things break, ropes jam,
>the wind changes, someone messes up.. nothing's ever
>guaranteed until the boats reach the finish.

I find yacht racing to be intensely interesting, too. As odd as it may sound, I have absolutely no interest in getting a boat and actually going out and doing it, although the Pacific ocean (or a part jutting there from) is maybe 5 miles away. I just like watching it.

>I have heard soccer (er, football) fanatics (of which I am
>not one) say that Americans need instant gratification, that
>they HAVE to have sports that run up huge scores (like
>American football and basketball - small scores are boring),
>that their attention spans are so short that the action has
>to be broken up into tiny slices of time, with numerous
>time-outs...

Shows you how Clueless those who say that are or more to the fact jealous. Baseball is known as America's favorite past time. Not very often you see a score over 10 and normally not much above 5. They can put down Americans all they want but I for one am proud of being an American, and living in the greatest country in the world.

LAST EDITED ON Sep-18-03 AT 03:15 AM (CDT)
 
Yeah, baseball's quite different and an excellent counterpoint. A lot more cerebral (in terms of strategy and coaching) than football or basketball. But then again, the basketball and football fanatics say its boring and nothing happens for long stretches of time, and they'll claim that basketball and football have lots more viewers..

Come to think of it.. (ice) hockey's very much like soccer. Same range in scoring, lots of fouls, lots of penalties, no stopping the ^$##@ clock all the time (the main reason I can't stand to watch basketball).

In other countries, you'll see stuff you'll never see in the US, like field hockey (it's only a girls' game in the US!) and rugby on TV a lot. But I must admit, soccer/football is king everywhere except in the US, in terms of the number of viewers, and participants.

Come to think of it, a couple land mines and maybe a couple of Double 50 equipped Hummers would make Soccer kinda fun to watch too.

I don't hold it against the rest of the world that they like that silly game, they don't know any better. But once you've driven a car, it's hard to convince folks that going back to a horse and carriage is the way to go.

>Come to think of it, a couple land mines and maybe a couple
>of Double 50 equipped Hummers would make Soccer kinda fun to
>watch too.
>
>I don't hold it against the rest of the world that they like
>that silly game, they don't know any better. But once
>you've driven a car, it's hard to convince folks that going
>back to a horse and carriage is the way to go.
>
>From somewhere near Parkville, Mo.
>William Crane
>AMA 6733

In answer to the pathetic lament "why does the rest of the world hate us", I offer the quote above.

Jim Brooks

LAST EDITED ON Sep-18-03 AT 10:07 AM (CDT)
 
American football evolved from the gladiator games of Rome. I guess my ancestors were on to something, blood, gore, pain, kept the taxpayers happy, kept the streets free of hoods and criminals as they were playing the "game". Few left the arena alive, and the jails were never full. Hmmm. Ice hockey is next for stupidity. I went to a fight one night and hockey game broke out. Ha.

>Shows you how Clueless those who say that are or more to the
>fact jealous. Baseball is known as America's favorite past
>time. Not very often you see a score over 10 and normally
>not much above 5. They can put down Americans all they want
>but I for one am proud of being an American, and living in
>the greatest country in the world.
>
>Larry Foster

You haven't watched the Cardinals much this year, have you? They can give up 5 runs easily in one inning, and it only takes them three or four pitchers to do it.

Doug loaned me the RO Jett tape of the 2002 Nats Top 5 flyoff. I was home sick yesterday and needed to take a nap and could not sleep. I put on the tape and was out by the 3rd flight. That Doppler effect really does the trick.

NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.....

NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.....

Only thing even close to CLPA on TV for catching a quick nap is golf. Women's golf especially. Funny thing is I like both.

Golf would keep you awake if the announcer would just quit whispering and shout like the yahoo John Madden does at football games.
Once, during a very quiet night, I actually heard paint dry. At least I think it was the paint kinda sighing.

>You haven't watched the Cardinals much this year, have you?
>They can give up 5 runs easily in one inning, and it only
>takes them three or four pitchers to do it.

Hey I'm no Cardinals fan, I was die-hard Bronco's fan when I was 18 and I still am. Arizona made a big mistake when they brought the Cards here. The only problem with the Cards is the owners. Now as for baseball D-Backs may have had a rough year but I see good things next year.

I too am a Broncos fan. My wife is from the Denver area. I am a baseball Cardinal fan and when the "feetsball" cards (note lower case "c")left, all in Saint Looie were not sad to see them go. Dollar Bill Bidwell is not a favorite son in St. L.
Do hope the baseball Cards do better as I will be at their last two season games.

>I too am a Broncos fan. My wife is from the Denver area. I
>am a baseball Cardinal fan and when the "feetsball" cards
>(note lower case "c")left, all in Saint Looie were not sad
>to see them go. Dollar Bill Bidwell is not a favorite son
>in St. L.
>Do hope the baseball Cards do better as I will be at their
>last two season games.

Always good to see the home state team win, but nobodys betting any money on it.

Gentlemen: This thread, as they often do, has strayed way off- track. It sure is discouraging to punch-up 75 responses only to have people talking about NASCAR, golf, tennis, etc.

What was the original premise? I have forgotten.

>Gentlemen: This thread, as they often do, has strayed way
>off- track. It sure is discouraging to punch-up 75
>responses only to have people talking about NASCAR, golf,
>tennis, etc.
>
>What was the original premise? I have forgotten.
>
>Floyd

When I forget I just scroll back up to the top and re-read the orginal post.

Myself, I don't like watching soccer, either, on TV. Detest it, most of the time. Come to think of it, I don't watch much sports on TV (or much TV at all , other than Six Feet Under), other than the occasional Formula 1. But I did follow the last World Cup, and once you start getting into the swing of things, you do get caught up in it. I thought the Koreans getting as far as the semis was fantastic, and it was really funny when the US beat Portugal (the US women are the best in the world, the men, well...).

American Football, I'll watch occasionally, and I'll say I do find it more interesting than soccer. I've defended it once or twice at the dinner table (where Beckham usually comes up, and I'll say that watching Joe Montana win the Superbowl in the last two minutes more exciting than watching Beckham).

Basketball I can't stand. Baseball? Only when someone is there to explain the fine points. Hockey? It's great watching it at the rink, it's great to play, the one or two times I've tried it, but it's awful on television. Tennis? Yes, I like to watch it, when it happens to be on. Table Tennis? This is the only game I play, and the little they show on TV is great - but then, I understand what's going on, while no one who doesn't play does, and the camera just CAN'T do a good job giving you the flavor of the game - not without multiple cameras and good editing, anyway, and none of the sport channels have anyone experienced enough to do this, or the inclination to hire anyone with the experience to put something like this together.

Hobby? Sport? I've kinda wavered on this one...but here goes my current take on this, and it's worth every cent you are paying for it:

Tying flies is a hobby.
Wrapping your own rods is a hobby
Fishing to eat is a form of hunting
Fishing in a tournament for a trophy is a...well...you know..sorry, but I think it's a sport.

For me the time spent building in my shop is the Hobby.
My time on the sidelines at the field is the Social Club.
And...when I'm in the circle, It's Performance Art! (fooled ya, thought I was going to say sport, huh? Not yet.)
But...when I go to a contest, and I have that score board at the top of my priority list, I do feel it's a sport, for that day anyways. But the rest of the year, it falls in the first three categories.

That all being said, I just don't foresee any success in trying to promote the whole of model aviation activity into the single category of sport. It's a nice idea, and may have some truth in it, but it's such a small nich...I can't see the effort worth the ROI. (return on investment) What I do forsee is a lot of energy waisted on semantics and agenda' that could instead be put to use to preserve a great passtime.

If you think modern day TV can't capture PA, you're right. But you should have "seen" it in the '50s, CLs heyday, on a small B & W 10" screen. You'd be better off watching fleas jump off your cat.

Reminds me. Remember that TV series from the early 70s called "UFO"? The one that had the female fighter pilots called "Angels", who flew the funky looking jets? (Airfix actually sold an Angel Interceptor model at one time.) Well, it wasn't until a friend lent me some tapes with some episodes two or three years ago did I realize the women on Moonbase had.. purple hair. I'd watched it all on B&W TV in my youth.