Circle diameters

We are back in our Palisades Park flying area. We plan to paint circle centers and perimeters on all three. Is 85 feet enough? It would seem to me to be adequate, especially in an area where the wind pretty much comes from one direction (less wandering about).

Thanks

See Ya

>We are back in our Palisades Park flying area. We plan to
>paint circle centers and perimeters on all three. Is 85
>feet enough? It would seem to me to be adequate, especially
>in an area where the wind pretty much comes from one
>direction (less wandering about).
>
>Thanks
>
>See Ya
>
>Peabody

Are you talking 85 foot circles, or 85 foot perimeters? If you mark 70 foot (radisu) circles and leave 30 feet between them, or 15 foot clearance all around a single circle, it would certainly seem adequate. But then it is up to the spectators to exercise caution when walking around a circle when a flyer is flying. If a flyer needs to deviate more than 15 feet from the center of the circle to maintainn tension, there are wind conditions that might make me want to stay home and play with my trains. (Come to think of it, I don't have any trains. That was Windy who has trains.)

If 70' circle and 30' of space between circle perimeters, I would add a little more. 15' of wander space for the flyer is too little, I think, even given minimal wind conditions.

When you are trying to save a model, especially in high wind conditions but for a variety of other reasons, you can deviate 30 to 40 feet easily from your standing point when the plane was launched.

Speaking of circles, not intending to hijack this thread but this is a similar subject.

If you were starting from scratch building a flying circle on your own property, what would be the best type of grass to plant?

LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-03 AT 10:27 AM (CDT)
 
>Speaking of circles, not intending to hijack this thread but
>this is a similar subject.
>
>If you were starting from scratch building a flying circle
>on your own property, what would be the best type of grass
>to plant?

Short and green.

Grass used for putting greens will tolorate very short cuttings and should suit your purpose well. The name for this grass is Bentgrass. There are in the area of 100 diffrent types of this grass with less than 10 that are used for putting greens. I would recommend talking to a greens keeper at your local golf course for the type he is using and specific cost and maintenance information (that is if he will part with his secrets).

There was an article in one of the Toronto papers recently about an artificial turf now available for residential lawns. Probably a little too pricey for an area the size of a flying circle and I don't know how it reacts to methanol/nitro/Klotz/castor but just think of all that flying time you gain from not having to mow the stuff!

Best, Hoovie

Bent won't tolerate the oil, takes too much chemicals to keep it healthy and needs lotsa water that close too.

Depends on the area you live, but in my area a nice Turf Type Fescue like Apache or the like would do. You can cut it around 1.5 inches to 2 and it will be fine. You could also go with Zoysia, and I'm a little iffy on any names, and it can be mown really short, but it isn't any fun to sit in. Drought tolerant, it will be the last grass green and the first brown, however we've switched several golf courses around here to it because it is tough!

Both of these are fairly disease resistant but the fescue takes a bit more water than Zoysia. A good tip is to go to your local city/county park and ask what they use or go to a nursury that deals with grass and sod and ask them.

>We are back in our Palisades Park flying area. We plan to
>paint circle centers and perimeters on all three. Is 85
>feet enough? It would seem to me to be adequate, especially
>in an area where the wind pretty much comes from one
>direction (less wandering about).

85 feet is pretty marginal. 70' from handle to center+3 feet for arm length+3 feet for outboard wing is up to 76' already. Then add at least 5 feet for pilot wander, and it's 81. 4 feet isn't much margin. When we use cones in our parking lot, we set them at 90'.

The new Napa site has a fence with very sturdy posts at 85'. It's uncomfortably close. If space is not an issue, I would suggest 90'

Who was it that kept hitting fence posts with his planes? How much space did he have I wonder? We have more than ample space where we fly, but there is a guy with an ultralight who likes, on occasion, to taxi by perilously close. (Things too calm in there? Let me turn my plane a bit and give you a new wind direction.)

>Who was it that kept hitting fence posts with his planes?
>How much space did he have I wonder?

Lots of people hit posts and various fixed objects over the years. Quick count off the top of my head:

Fitz - hit post at W/C last year
Bear - hit landing light at 93 NATs (with the *inboard* wing, no less)
PW - hit tree at some contest in about 2000
Mike Pratt - hit fence at 93(?) Team trials
me - hit Paul "Blind Lemon" Isenhower's shoulder at Sacramento contest in 92
Fancher - hit kid's leg at a demo in the early 80s
me - hit my Dad's arm with 1/2A "Mirage" (while trying to snatch a handkerchief out of his hand on the first flight) in about 1981.
me - hit overhanging branch on first attempted solo flight, Cox P-51b, Uncle Gary's front yard, Louisiana ~1968
me - hit overhanging power line with Mattel "Superstar" in tethered mode, ~1969

Guys,

I guess that i'm just one of the hazards around the circle. I finished a flight and was just unfastening the lines from my plane and had just kneeled and bent over when I was hit in the back by the inboard wing of a Cavalier with a screaming Aero Tiger .36 on it. The leadouts bruised my back and kept me out of the rest of the contest. Yes, that happened at a contest held in Rome GA in May 1999. The propeller just cleared my right ear when the airplane bounced over my head after the impact with my back. Now I always look for airplanes coming that are nearby no matter how the circle is laid out!!

Last weekend we flew at Plymouth Municipal Airport. We marked 85 foot perimeter fence for the circle and it was VERY close to the fence flying on 66ft lines. I remember someone here(SSW forum) talking about 100ft circles being the best.

We are probably going to paint 85 foot circles......there is no overlap....we "clear" obstacles by about 15 feet, but I figure that painted circles are pretty much to warn non-flyers where they are....

I flew in Cleveland before the site was bulldozed....very close on full length lines....

Thanks

See Ya

I am not trying to trivialize.

In the short span that I have been flying, I have seen three airplanes hit folks....fortunately nobody has been hurt!

One instance saw the flyer about 15 feet from circle center...he smacked someone in the back..... The lesson that I learned is that it is a pretty good idea to scan even "ideal" flying sites for safety reasons.

Another instance saw a judge wander into an adjacient circle and get hit from behind....this was especially scary because the plane hit shoulder / neck height!

And the third simply involved a "brain fart".... a flyer walked into the circle while a competitor was taking off. There was almost 100 feet available!

We are painting lines hoping to make people aware of the potential flight paths .... I'm curious as to how big the circles are at the National Flying Site? It seems to me that the pads are 160'?

I have also witnessed plane to plane contact and plane to pole contact....again due to pilot error.....they wandered out of the flying circle.

Thanks for the input!

See Ya

Gee, I feel lucky. So far I've only hit the circle.

Take a look at the AMA requirements. If you take the max line length along with arm and wingspan you end up around 75 feet. A standard circle has a pilots circle of 3-5' radius, so max SHOULD be 80' with the pilot at the extreme off center position. Then add the prescribed 25' safety margin and that gives you a radius of 105' or 210' circles. After that you need to make a deliberate decision as to how much walk-between room you want between circles. We have an extremely tight site when it comes to setting up 2 circles for a contest. I set up in the diagonal corners of our rectangular field and the one closet to the spectator area is at a full 100-105' radius, the second is at a 70' radius and the safety margins overlap by 25', flyers and judges are briefed before flying. This does not mean the circles overlap, only the safety margins, even with both circle in use with max line/model length the flight paths are still 25' apart with the pilots in the center of their circles. I think we need to stress more the importance of pilots staying as close to the center as possible. AMA specifies a 3-5' radius pilots circle but does not specify how it may be used. It would be safe however to interpret that as meaning the pilot should stay within the bounds of that circle as much as possible barring recovery of a wind blown model or lines going slack. Return to the circle should be imediately after that recovery. Above all keep safety in the forefront, even cones and barrier tape in high traffic areas are a good idea if allot of spectators are around. Everyone involved in flying should be able to quickly brief spectators on where and where not to go.

In '01, my flyin' buddy Matt had a swap meet T-Bird; it was sort of a first gen and second gen one combined; i.e, it had an upright engine, but a bubble canopy. Awful turqoise and white trim.

Out at the old HS flying field, we are kind of fenced in (pun fully intended) by a...metal fence, and, while he was flying, I was going "Gee, isn't he kind of close to the fence", and you can fill in the rest.

Took the OB wing clean off, just like a giant Xacto. It's in my basement now, and, hey, that awful Fruitland FL cottage industry Bird that I didn't finish is sitting there for a decade, and the wing only needs sheeting, and Winter's coming, and...

I had a pretty close shave at one of the SIG events. I was carrying my pit boxes along the side of one circle, walking to the outside of the marked line (there was a dropoff maybe 2 feet from the circle's edge, when someone took off and I saw the plane headed right for me. I dropped to the ground as fast as I could, and the pilot must've seen me and pulled up into a wingover. Pretty scary at the time.

In Combat, we're used to standard line lengths, and pilots who stay in the pilots' circle. Under such conditions, as long as the lines are intact, you're safe as long as you're outside the marked circle lines. I guess in Stunt it's not always so clear-cut. Lines vary in length, pilots are allowed to wander to some extent.

RULES...Outer circle is 76' radis
Plus 20' safety zone.

To paint all of the racing lines
all in radis
5'
15'
48'
58'
68'
76'

Scott (painted them once) Riese

Scott....interesting....
the 85' circles seemed to be a big hit...we had a gang of folks, mostly Stunt Types, but Scale, too.

Being so close to NYC, Ashcroft might accuse us of creating a target if we painted you rings?

See Ya

>Scott....interesting....
>the 85' circles seemed to be a big hit...we had a gang of
>folks, mostly Stunt Types, but Scale, too.
>
>Being so close to NYC, Ashcroft might accuse us of creating
>a target if we painted you rings?
>
>See Ya
>
>Peabody

There right out of the rule book. 85' is still 9' short of the safety zone. The 76' ring is the last ring and then 20 feet of safe zone. that's 96'. YEP your right about the target so close to NYC.
I have a photo from 20000 miles up of are circle. Looks good.

Scott

20000 miles up, I'd like to see that picture:+

LAST EDITED ON Sep-09-03 AT 02:19 AM (CDT)
 
Hope this works
The Jim Walker Memorial Control Line Field Portland Oregon

Shucks Scott, That's probably only 20,000 FEET up!
Nice shot of your field!

Oh, love those trees! Is the white circle to the right the infield of a softball diamond?

YES it is. We can fly any where in the photo.....NOT I-5.

Scott(great place to fly) Riese

This year's Brodak Fly In. I watched somebody nail a tape stanchion with his ob wing and did a lot of damage. So on my flight (66' lines eye to eye) I walked my plane half way round the circle to see where I had to stand to avoid the same fate (assuming that the taped off circle was round). Flew with no trouble. Practiced on another circle and someone told me where to stand because the circle was too small (same lines).
On the final day I was flying my Impact with the same line length and
just grazed a stanchion with the ob tip--ruined flight. I noticed that I was standing about 3' to the right of where I had no trouble the day before. Boy, that's cutting it close. I was totally PO'd, all the effort and anticipation only to be ruined by a sloppily placed barrier ribbon and/or too little appreciation of the danger by me.
The circles are too small for that line length. I'll either switch to smaller lines or stay home next June!!

Jim Brooks

Hi Jim,

I felt really bad for you and the plane when you hit that pole and I agree the circles were too small. I hope you don't decide to stay home.

Jim: Yet another reason to err on the side of a lot of room. Again, 85 is not enough. Currell