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Ringmaster Jr.

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cgryphon · Jul 02, 2001 10:50 AM

Ringmaster Jr.#0 source
I've been flying the trainer a bit and getting to the point where I am bored. I guess that means I'm not crashing. The Fox .35 has been a real champ, easy starting and strong running. About all I can do with the trainer besides level, are sort of wing-overs and loops. Things get real unstable at the top of the loops, I think this is a weight, wing size, flying brick issue. I'm ready to move on.

I'm putting the final touches on my rebuild of a Ringmaster Jr., to be powered by a new OS Max .10 with muffler. I have not weighed it, but I assume it is not a real light build. I probably went overboard re-gluing all of the joints, adding some epoxy here and there, reinforcing the motor mounts with glass cloth, etc. All solid surfaces were covered with silkspan/titebond. Everything inside and out got a couple of coats of clear. Finish on the fuselage is Rustoleum (hey, it's a spray!) with film on the wings. As usual, I have a few questions.

How much tip weight to start with?

Where should the CG be?

Any outside wedge to the engine thrust line?

This is a new engine that I've run about 30 minutes total on the bench, fairly rich most of the time, with a few step-ups to 2 cycle. I have been running 5%/29% all castor fuel. What do you think is the best fuel for flying and do you think I need to keep it rich for a while?

I was planning on starting with a 7-4 prop, sound OK?

52' .012 lines.

Any other advice?

Best regards,

Clay

"There is no such thing as a stupid question....but I'll keep trying"

The Kiwi · Jul 02, 2001 11:22 AM

RE: Ringmaster Jr.#1 source
>
>I'm putting the final touches on my rebuild of a Ringmaster
>Jr., to be powered by a new OS Max .10 with muffler. I
>have not weighed it, but I assume it is not a real light build.
>I probably went overboard re-gluing all of the joints, adding
>some epoxy here and there, reinforcing the motor mounts with
>glass cloth, etc.
>
>How much tip weight to start with?
>
1/4 Oz, maybe 3/8 Oz - for .012 by 52's, less if you run 45 foot lines.

>Where should the CG be?
>
Start from about 1" back of the LE and later on if you want more responsiveness, move it back a quarter inch or so at a time. The one I have here flies nicely at 1.25 inches back of the LE, using a Fox 15X engine.

>Any outside wedge to the engine thrust line?
>
That probably is more the pilot's determination than much else, save that in some areas it helps beat waiting on dusk for the wind to die off some to fly it on more than one side of the circle! Ours didn't have out-thrust and seemed to need some, the last time we flew it . .

> This is a new engine that I've run about
>30 minutes total on the bench, fairly rich most of
>the time, with a few step-ups to 2 cycle.

The current OS Max 10 is an "ABN" item that needs to be run a little faster to heat up the engine and have the parts expand properly. Running it slow & rich on a test stand is a waste of time and fuel.

>I have been running 5%/29% all castor fuel. What
>do you think is the best fuel for flying and
>do you think I need to keep it rich for a while?
>
I would run 15% by 25% fuel mixes, half castor and half synthetic, in that engine. It will break in fairly rapidly once you stop babying it, but you want to set it "rich enough," which is a subjective judgment. When you want to learn some stunts, it will use more fuel climbing up and over the top, for example, & you want it to have a power reserve available for that.

Set so lean that it's already going full speed in level flight, the wingover climb will go so lean that the engine loses power, but each plane and engine combination has its own favorite spot for that perfect setting.

>I was planning on starting with a 7-4 prop, sound OK?
>
Probably. Later, you may want to try a 7-3 or a 7-3.5.
>

Kiwi


.

cgryphon · Jul 02, 2001 12:44 PM

RE: Ringmaster Jr.#2 source
Kiwi,

Thanks for all of the information. Follow up question. I have about 1/2 Gallon of "Omega (Morgan fuel) 15% "pink colored" R/C fuel I got with some other stuff at a swap. I have no known use for the fuel, but it sounds like it might be close to what I need for the OS .10. Looking at the jug and their web site, I am unable to determine the oil make-up/content. Any issues using this fuel? Sure would be great to use it up, and economical too!

Thanks,

Clay

"There is no such thing as a stupid question....but I'll keep trying"

The Kiwi · Jul 02, 2001 12:58 PM

RE: Ringmaster Jr.#3 source
Omega has much less than the 25% oil content C/L folks want, and prefer it measured by volume. I believe Morgan measures it "by weight" and only adds 17% that way, which equates roughly to 14% by volume.

You'll need to add oil, and I'd make what you add be all Castor. There are formulas around for figuring out how much of the 15% Omega to pour into a reserve container to make room for the Castor, but I didn't bookmark the message threads in which those formulas were quoted.

There are also a couple of modeller-created computer spreadsheets in which you can plug in what you have, and what you want, and get the answer in what you must add. Chances are very good all you need to do to get all of that is go to the "lobby" here in SSW's message forum area and run a search for all occurrences of the word CASTOR.


The K.

.

cgryphon · Jul 02, 2001 02:12 PM

RE: Ringmaster Jr.#4 source
K,

Found the formula in a reply from Steve H., to one of my earlier posts. I'm eyeballing a little under 1/2 gallon of Omega fuel to start with. If my math is right, I need to add 8oz of castor and I'll be pretty close. Pretty close is good for me. I also got a chart along the way somewhere, from Larry I think. I'll check that out too and make sure the number looks good. I started thinking about what the addition of oil does to the nitro %......I think I'll just add the oil, mix well, and fly. Lot's of Engineers on this board, I'm a baker. Of course, you can tell by looking at my builds and reading my posts

Thanks,

Clay
"There is no such thing as a stupid question....but I'll keep trying"

Brett Buck · Jul 02, 2001 02:21 PM

RE: Ringmaster Jr.#5 source

>How much tip weight to start
>with?
>
>Where should the CG be?


15% of MGC

>Any outside wedge to the engine
>thrust line?


Just enough to make sure it's not inboard.


> This is a new
>engine that I've run about
>30 minutes total on the
>bench, fairly rich most of
>the time, with a few
>step-ups to 2 cycle.
>I have been running 5%/29%
>all castor fuel. What
>do you think is the
>best fuel for flying and
>do you think I need
>to keep it rich for
>a while?


That kind of fuel is not necessary, and running it rich may be doing more harm than good. ABC engines loosen up when hot, so running to cool means running it tight. It's just the opposite of a Fox. The FP's are set up relatively loose to begin with, so it's not really a big problem, but it's not helping, either. You've got plenty of time on it.Drop the oil down to maybe 18-22%, nitro up to 10 to 25, and go fly it. Based on experience with the 15/20/25, it should work fine from the start, and the fuel consumption will go down about 25% after 5-10 flights.

Brett

cgryphon · Jul 03, 2001 02:45 PM

RE: Ringmaster Jr.#6 source
Brett,

Thanks for the response. I was not aware of the (obvious to some) difference in the way these engines are designed to run. Now I know what to use and more importantly, why.

Clay

Jake · Aug 02, 2001 08:02 PM

RE: Ringmaster Jr.#9 source
The .10 is a very good little motor (at least the one I had was) and should power a Jr Ring easily. You didn't say if you had the old or new style kit, I suspect the latter. I am not real fond of the sharp leading edge (unless Estes changed it) they put on the revised version, otherwise the later style is an improvement. I have an "old style" one sitting on my building table now, waiting for when I can get to finishing it.
It is really an .049 (modern!) to .10 size airplane; most any but the very lightest of the old baffle .15s like the steelfin OS Max, K&B GH Torp, and the Fox and similar are too heavy for it.

Tim Bruhn · Aug 02, 2001 02:08 PM

RE: Ringmaster Jr.#7 source
Ringmaster Jr. with O.S. .10FP

Tip weight I believe is 1/2 oz.

If you built on the heavy side I think the .10FP may be a little weak. Remove the long screw through the muffler and take it apart. Remove the small center section and put it back together using the smallest threaded rod you can find instead of the original bolt which is now too long. I would run %15 nitro 20% oil at 50/50 castor/synthetic. The 7X4 sounds good to start with. If you run muffler pressure do NOT run a standard vent tank. If you run muffler pressure the Brodak BH-546 tank is a good choice. Maybe a bit more than you need but you don't have to fill it all the way. I spent all spring messing with an Akromaster and .15FP so I learned a few things about the small stuff.

Tony G · Aug 02, 2001 08:00 PM

RE: Ringmaster Jr.#8 source
regarding tip weight...1/2 oz is way too much...I agree with
everything Brett Buck has suggested...the CG at 15% will help
keep the lines tight...also I would suggest that you keep the
maximum elevator deflection(one way)under 28 degrees..okay..
....now go fly it!!! after you've flown it 7-10 times then alter
the tip wght..CG...engine offset...prop dia ..prop pitch..
see what happens.....and have fun..Tony

Old Sourdough · Aug 03, 2001 01:44 AM

RE: Ringmaster Jr.#10 source
Tim wrote:

"......I spent all spring messing with an Akromaster and .15FP so I learned a few things about the small stuff."
=================
What were your conclusions about the combo, Tim?

I'm flying an Akromaster with an Old baffle Fox .15 and it performs very well, better than ANY of the many kit-built Ringmaster Jr.'s I've ever seen fly.

OS

cgryphon · Aug 03, 2001 02:17 PM

RE: Ringmaster Jr.#11 source
Hello all,

Since this post got “re-upped” I thought I would give an update for the slightly curious and/or extremely bored reader. To begin, I have been getting in some time flying the Ring Jr. and having a ball! Flying alone in the evening on a never used elementary school ball diamond, no houses close, pretty good grass, and nary a spectator. Beginner heaven almost, although it would be nice to have a little experience around from time to time. Almost got the stooge launch down pat and only “grass out” about one out of five attempts. Maybe they’ll cut the grass this week.

To answer Jake’s question, I believe it is the old style Ringmaster Jr. The guy I got it from had “finished” it, but never flew it. He did include the original Sterling directions. I can’t find any date on them, but they seem old, with a picture of Matt Kania (sp) on the page. The guy said he had built it after he got home from ‘Nam, but I can’t remember what year he said. 1960 something I suppose. Maybe these clues can help you fix a date on it. It did not seem airworthy to me and had little benefit from sandpaper, so I stripped off all the covering, took all the big stuff apart, and started over. This included a new control system, wing planking, hinges, covering all solid surfaces with silk span, new film on the wing, etc. In a sense I am using it as a dual trainer i.e. train to build, train to fly.

All of this work was done gleaning information from the board’s, etc. and I thank all of you for your continued information and support, both directly and indirectly.

The particulars:

The Ring Jr. rebuild ended up at a little under 19 oz. finished weight, empty tank.
Went with ½ oz. tip weight.
2 degrees engine offset with Brodak wedges.
Standard Brodak wedge tank, 2+ ounces.
7/4 Prop (tried several sizes in the 7 and 8 range, thanks Currell!). Sorry, no RPM data, don't have that toy.
Running 15/22 GMA Powermaster fuel, 50/50 castor/synthetic blend.
No Muffler, No Spinner and a lot less tail weight/ “barbell” effect (thanks Leonard!).
Stock LG wire with 2” wheels.
C.G at 15% MGC.
.012 x 52’ lines.
Getting somewhere between 4 and 5 minutes out of 1 ½ ounces of fuel.
Running 2 cycle all the way, at just past the point it breaks from 4 cycle to 2 on the ground. Needle set at about 3 turns out.

Flight characteristics:

Seems to be flying with a slightly higher outboard wing, right side up. (I don’t do inverted yet).
Lots of line tension in every mode, level, wing-overs, loops, (which is all I do, intentionally anyway ) Really fast!! (for me) Lap times are in the low 4 seconds, with an occasional below 4, if the engine speeds up any. My timing may not be extremely accurate, as I have enough trouble just flying to be to precise holding the stopwatch in the other hand.

Questions:

If I start off and stay in a 4 cycle, the whole flight seems like the plane will fall out of the air. Never breaks into 2 cycle on the wing-overs at this setting. Maybe this is just newbie jitters from wanting more line tension? Take off in rich 2 cycle normally leans out a bit more in flight with no power loss in wing-overs. Great tension (line and otherwise) but things are happening sooo fast, it seems to me. Tried a variety of prop sizes and types from 7x3.5 up to 8x4 and did not see a lot of change. It does seem that 7x4 is running smoothest with the least load on the engine in 2 cycle. Maybe these changes are too subtle for the newbie to notice? Maybe this engine should only be run in 2 cycle? If that is the case, this baby has more that enough power for this plane!

How hot is too hot? Since I am flying alone, I can basically just keep filling up and going. I’ve gotten to know the engine well enough to just start it right back up. The engine is pretty hot (don’t know the temp., not smoking, but you can’t really touch it) at the end of each run, including the first. Should I be resting between flights? Normally it gets a few minutes while I straighten out the lines, reset the stooge, refuel, get a sip of water, get over the dizzy’s, etc.

I am thinking of going to longer lines. I guess that may slow the plane down (resistance on the line) and also increase the lap time. Any suggestions?

I am going to beef up the landing gear wire, the stock wire is not nearly strong enough. I get to reshape it after every “landing”. Also going with larger wheels to help on the grass. I may have to add a little more tail weight after doing that.

Overall, I am having a blast. I truly have no real idea what I’m doing. Am I standing the right way? How is my hand position? Is this thing going too fast or am I just reaction time challenged? I have had some spectacular crashes. With a patch here and a glue there, we are keeping it in the air! My favorite crash maneuver to date is what I call “Lost in Space”. This maneuver is performed by following the suggestion that gradually increasing the top side of an inside loop and then applying "down" will lead to “S’s”, then lazy 8’s and eventually inverted flight. My reality so far is that this leads to flying all over the hemisphere with a hopeful recovery at some point! Hope you can tell I’m having fun! Look out Nats 2002 ……NOT!

Best regards,

Clay

"There is no such thing as a stupid question....but I'll keep trying"

gcb · Aug 03, 2001 02:52 PM

RE: Ringmaster Jr.#12 source
Clay,
The new Ringmaster Jr. has sheeting on the wing LE, the old one does not. Mine is the new one with an Enya .09 and no landing gear. I have not yet flown it.
Your engine probably will not do a good 4-2 break. Just run it 2-cycle and play with the speed until you find a place that the plane flys well. The more weight you add, the faster that will be.
Good luck,
George

Jake · Aug 03, 2001 08:15 PM

RE: Ringmaster Jr.#13 source
Ah! You do indeed have the original. The later one was easier to build the wing straight on, but I still think the sharp leading edge was a negative "improvement".
The last one I had prior to the current, incomplete one was around 1975 or so. Enya .15 III power (way too heavy), although it would 4-2-4 if you set the needle just right.
IF I ever get time to finish the "new" one, it will get an ancient OS Max .15 II steelfin (about 3.75 ozs.) or a Fox .15.
Have fun with it, it is a neat little airplane, although way too little for modern schnuerle .15s.

Jake