Flying inverted

This may be basic to allot of guys here, but I thought it might be helpful to some to share it here.

In several previous threads handle position vertical vs horizontal have been discussed at length. Years ago I flew horizontal and finally broke the habit. When I started flying again a few years ago I went through that execise again and now fly with the handle vertical. While I normally score well in inverted flight 35-38, I noticed that it required intense concentration. As I flew more I realized that while inverted constant control deflection was necessary, down to keep the nose up, this weekend really showed it after not flying for almost a year. This made flying inverted precarious and nerve racking. I decided that I would start biasing the lines until I nolonger needed down input to maintain level inverted flight. While I progressed through this process I watched for indications of CG problems. These never materialized indicating that the CG was OK and that in both upright and inverted flight I was giving control inputs while not realizing it while upright. In other words, neutral was not neutral. As I moved slowly to true neutral I found that not only was it easier to fly level both upright and inverted, but square cornered maneuvers became increasingly easier and better shaped. The model that had always flown well now flys much better, making me fly better.

I think this is an issue that horizontal handle flyers should look at closely. Not only does holding the handle flat make it more difficult to maintain level flight, but I think the compensation phenomena I discovered is even more pronounced, but its more difficult to detect. You may be flying considerably off neutral without knowing it and your maneuvers are suffering for it.

I still have a little bit further to go, but the improvement is the greatest I've made with all the other adjustments I've make to date, I am amazed!

Thanks, Randy. I'm one of those guys who has to "unlearn" the palm-up method too.

I'll bet it's pretty common (especially among those of us just learning) that one would discover, upon close inspection and controlled experimentation, that the neutral adjustment was not true. I know I've been guilty of it, and even David Hoover owned up to discovering this about his own setup, when he had been flying for many years. Makes quite a difference, no doubt!

On the "horizontal vs. vertical" issue, this season I made great progress, learning consecutive inside loops, lazy-8's, and first inverted flights. About the time I was starting to try inverted for the first time, I noticed with dismay that my handle went horizontal when the plane went inverted, and I hadn't even noticed it! In other words, a "natural" tendency. Worse, I then noticed I had the same tendency when doing lazy-8's. Uuugggghhh! I think I've about cured the problem, though...

Hand position is something that has been debated endlessly with people talking "at" rather than "to" each other.

It appears to me that you have been dealing with two different phenomenon and working them both out together. The first is how you hold your hand naturally at neutral. The second is whether to go "palm up" or not inverted.

Here is my take on the subject: Hand position at upright neutral will tend to be biased differently if you hold your arm low (gunslinger), straight out (duellist), or in the cocked arm, hand at eye-level (target shooter, as seen used by Bob Whitely among others). In the first two cases, your relaxed neutral will be biased slightly down, the third, it will tend to be straight up and down.

Now the key is to let your hand be naturally relaxed at neutral, but modify the handle so the bar (or whatever) that supports the lines is EXACTLY at right angle to the lines. If you do this, you will have pretty much equal up and down rotation available at your hand, and the plane will respond equally in both directions. This can NOT be achieved with an old Hot-rock type handle unless you lengthen or shorten one of the arms (which works just fine).

The palm-up vs hand upright issue is probably personal preference, but the real "TOP DAWGS" all seem to keep the hand upright in my observation. I personally tend to angle my hand over for the inverted pullout in the wingover and also that first inverted corner of the outside square. Frankly, I think it may be a part of my problem with those maneuvers, as I always pull those corners too high.

Larry,

I haven't flown palm up for several years, this is not two phenomena but one. My comments were to let people know that the first problem can be amplified by the second, especially when trying to make the transition to vertical handle. The effects of the palm up handle are real, try flying inverted at 45 degrees with the handle horizontal and stop rotating. The model will do figure 8's around your hand. Changes is rotational speed as you take steps are translated into control inputs. This is not the case with the handle vertical, if you stop rotation then, the model will simple fly around you and wind the lines around you as it goes.

Your description of hand/arm relationships is correct, that's why Big Art is an advocate of keeping the hand infront of you and keeping the upper arm pulled in and not swinging it out wildly. That's how consistance is developed.

The purpose of this thread was not to reopen the palm up/vertical can of worms, but to alert folks to the tendancy to compensate for neutral with the wrist and that we compensate differently for upright or inverted flight. The effect I spoke of with the flat handle amplifies the condition but the compensations are also amplified but not as noticible holding the wrist in a more natural position.

The thrust of this post was trim, the secondary issue is out of trim condition exacerbated by handle orientation.

Sounds like we are in agreement. As I mentioned, I am thinking my palm up pull-outs are a bad habit.

Randy,
Big Art convinced me that I have some serious problems with form and that there is some benefit to the way he described to fly. I am a palm up inverted flyer from the first day I managed to keep it out of the dirt and really never though much about it. I gather from your experimentation that you gradually added down to the handle to get things back to level when you had the handle vertical. Is this correct? Just so I can start to worry early, which manuevers did you have near Earth misses with?
John

HI John,

Great time Saturday, thanks again.

Yes, I have been slowly adjusting the lines to find that magic center. But before you begin that process I'd suggest getting the handle vertical. I think you'll find the neutral issue, if there is one with your model, more apparent after you have conquered the rotating hand.

Also remember only one change at a time, the neutral issue is a trim issure, the hand a form issue, I think you could lose yourself an airplne trying to fix both problems simultaneously, so work on the form first.

I didn't mean to give the impression that these two problems were address at the same time, only that I've had both problems at different times and see the relationship now if both exist at the same time. The up bias I was flying with exists only with the Gladiator as far as I know, though I haven't flown any of my other airplanes to see if I've set them all up the same way. My guess is I have since I've always had this white knuckled, vien popping experience trying to fly level inverted.

In particular I've found outside square bottoms seemed to be smoothed out without the pronounced bobble so many people have noticed when I fly. I think that's because returning to neutral now really is neutral rather then down (up inverted). Inside bottoms inproved as well for the same reason. I was pretty good at making the insides work since upright is (in the mind) the safe mode, but the combination of up biased controls and fear of tera-firma made the outsides the most difficult. I seem to make rounder loops too, and inverted isn't near as tense as it was. I made 5 flights Sunday and 4 adjustments. Each successive flight became smoother and I felt out neutral inverted and noted improvement each time. I'm going out Wednesday to continue as well as practice for Cleveland.

By the way, I took the engine out and looked it over since a new filter and lines didn't solve the leaning problem. Looking through the spraybar it looked clean as a whistle, but using a tooth pick rotated in it there were black deposits on it.??? I laid it on a new white shop towel and shot Gumout through it, first in the direction of fuel flow then oposite, The first shot left a huge deposit of black residue on the tower, the second a smaller spot, the third dislodged what appeared to be a slug of congealed castor oil that had the shape of the area of the spraybay that forms the needle seat. But it had been split and one end was stretched as if pused through a small hole. I think I've found my problem!

Those of you who tend to fly inverted palm up...are you right handed or left handed? Flying CW? The reason I ask is that I'm right handed and tend to fly inverted palm down. I didn't find it a big deal to train myself to fly with the handle upright, but found this year that I'd lapsed back into it.

Also tend to fly with the arm extended, but I feel it in my elbow with the bigger .51 and .60 models, so I am trying to pull the handle up in front, chest high, and I think it helps my flying (and elbow too), if I can keep it there.

With the upright handle, it is pretty easy for your buddy/coach to see if your front bar handle is vertical or not, and it would be a help if they would watch for this. I can't see the elevators and flaps very well, but I can see the handle bar ok. I noticed that if the handle isn't adjusted properly, the model will tend to groove too high or too low upright and the opposite when inverted. Scary! I adjusted my handle more by this than anything else.

At our July Stunt Clinic, Paul W. took one look and said he couldn't fly the Mutant Magnum with that much handle bias. I was shocked, but I did know that it didn't turn as good outside as inside, so I was willing to comply. It helped a bunch, of course. Needs more power, prop testing, and handle time. Steve

> As I flew more I realized
>that while inverted constant control deflection was
>necessary, down to keep the nose up, this weekend really
>showed it after not flying for almost a year. This made
>flying inverted precarious and nerve racking. I decided that
>I would start biasing the lines until I nolonger needed down
>input to maintain level inverted flight. While I progressed
>through this process I watched for indications of CG
>problems. These never materialized indicating that the CG
>was OK and that in both upright and inverted flight I was
>giving control inputs while not realizing it while upright.

Right. Any airplane that is stable in pitch needs some negative incidence on the tail in level flight. When the plane is upside down, the same rule applies, and the difference in handle position between upright and inverted will depend on how much incidence the tail needs with respect to the wing. A couple things that would influence this are the degree of nose heaviness, and the size of the tail (the larger the tail, the further back you can bring the CG, and the closer it gan get to the Neutral Point before you lose the margin of stability you need). (I'm sure Ted will have something to say here.. ^_^)

>In other words, neutral was not neutral. As I moved slowly
>to true neutral I found that not only was it easier to fly
>level both upright and inverted, but square cornered
>maneuvers became increasingly easier and better shaped. The
>model that had always flown well now flys much better,
>making me fly better.

Hmmm.. Something I ought to try myself. One of the classic "hiding" maneuvers in Combat is to fly inverted continuously at about 3 feet. It's not that easy. Maybe playing with handle position might help.

I suspect it's working for you because it might be easier to adapt to a different handle position when flying upright than it is inverted (simply because we spend a lot more time flying upright). When you adjust the handle for "neutral" when you're flying inverted, you are also changing "neutral" for upright flying. I don't know if there is such a thing as "true neutral" - I suspect flying involves feedback - neutral is simply the handle position that keeps the airplane flying level, and I suspect it varies a little every time you fly a different airplane/lines/handle combo. But then again, in Stunt, perhaps a pilot needs a more "calibrated" wrist than in Combat.

Another thing to consider is the use of "self-centering" bellcranks. Like the spring centering you get on RC transmitter sticks, if the plane is set up to have NO return force upright, when inverted, you will feel a return force when flying level (if you "center the stick" the plane will nose down into the ground). So you'd have to adjust the airplane to have the same amount (hopefully very little, in opposite directions) of return force when flying level upright AND inverted. This, of course, isn't something you adjust at the handle, but rather, in the linkages on the airplane.

Isky you've missed the point. How come we always want to analyse the analysis. Of course incidence is required to produce AOA. My point in this whole thing is that we, some of us maybe, me anyway, have been flying models that we thought were trimmed. I found out that I was making compensations for trim deficiencies that made the model harder to fly. It would be a good practice to get inverted and fly, fly, fly until its second nature like upright. I think if we did that quite a few of us would find that we are making more compensations for pitch trim them we think. Certainly true in my case.

There is certainly a true neutral. it is the point where incidence required to fly the model level both upright and inverted are the same. If the CG is correct it becomes a very narrow arc of deflection. If the model is tail heavy the it becomes even narrower, if nose heavy it become wider.

>Isky you've missed the point. How come we always want to
>analyse the analysis. Of course incidence is required to
>produce AOA. My point in this whole thing is that we, some
>of us maybe, me anyway, have been flying models that we
>thought were trimmed. I found out that I was making
>compensations for trim deficiencies that made the model
>harder to fly.

If you're just adjusting the handle, though, then the plane IS trimmed, and it's a handle position issue.

>It would be a good practice to get inverted
>and fly, fly, fly until its second nature like upright. I
>think if we did that quite a few of us would find that we
>are making more compensations for pitch trim them we think.
>Certainly true in my case.

Completely agree with that, of course. Practice will make perfect. Or closer to perfect, anyhow.. And this is as true in Combat as in Stunt. The ones good at flying inverted indefinitely at 3 feet are the ones who practice it.

>There is certainly a true neutral. it is the point where
>incidence required to fly the model level both upright and
>inverted are the same. If the CG is correct it becomes a
>very narrow arc of deflection. If the model is tail heavy
>the it becomes even narrower, if nose heavy it become wider.

In that case, all airplanes have a "true neutral" (unless you have something misaligned). Your airplane had a "true neutral" before you made the changes, and after you made the changes to the lines. It's a matter of perception at the handle (or a hand calibration issue), which is what I thought your point was to begin with....

Initially, you were holding "up" when flying upright and not realizing it. And feeding what seems to be a lot of "down" when flying inverted. So you adjust by feeding more "down" into the handle so inverted now feels "neutral" (i.e. no more down input). Logically, you'd now feel like you're feeding in "up" when flying level upright, but you don't, even though you are. (The plane is flying with the exact same incidence on the surfaces as it was before, what's changed is the handle angle.) My contention is that this is so because you've adapted, and it's easier to adapt to a different handle angle when flying upright than when inverted.

In the end, you win because your perception is that you are feeding NO "up" when you're upright, and NO "down" when inverted, even though you are.

If this is "over-analyzing", then that's the nature of these online forums. Attracts us analyzers like flies..

Wow Steve, you're the second one I've heard that does that.

What you discribe with your arm is what Big Art preaches. That along with standing still and not "dancing". It gives you a fixed reference if you can hold still and follow with your eyes instead of your head, and keep the handle, airplane and pivot point in as close to a line as possible. I found immediate improvement when I quit swinging my arm around like a conductor. With the model coming into pitch trim I am amazed at how easy its getting to fly.

This a great thread....thanks for all the info. I am right handed and fly inverted with my hand palm up, thumb following the plane. I learned to fly on my own and just found it easier that way. I just figured if I got into trouble I could stand still and the plane would fly itself out. It worked for me. I do know what Randy is trying to say though. My planes always fly slightly high or low because of unequal trim. I don't seem to have much luck adjusting this out with weight, etc., so have simply put in the extra effort to fly level. I did build my own ergonomically designed handle that fits my hand only. I did this to sort of compensate for the planes trim combined with the handle I used to have (Sullivan yellow) that never felt comfortable with. Since I designed and built the handle I find I am fighting the plane less and am flying in a more relaxed manner. As a sport flyer I have never cut perfect corners but have tried. I can't do it. I know its a combination of the plane, handle, pilot ability and flying style (palm up). I can "feel" the plane not grooving because of my palm up style. I know I could fly better the other way but just didn't want to change back then. Now that I am getting back into it after so many years I am going to relearn, an fly thumb up.

Randy,

>> As I flew more I realized that while inverted constant control deflection was necessary, down to keep the nose up<<

Hmm, well, I'll put in my 2 cents that has little to do with how I hold my handle. If the plane wants to rise inverted, I'd be thinking about pushrod length before I thought about hand position or bias the lines. This has little to do with the flaps and elevators being 0-0. I know I've got the pushrod right when the plane just grooves in level flight with little input from me.I find that most planes I've built (the straight ones, anyway) have a place somewhere between 4 and 6 feet that they like to be. I figure out where that is and leave the plane there in level flight upright and inverted. If the thing is straight and the pushrod is adjusted correctly, it pretty much just stays there. Most of the time, if the plane wants to climb inverted, then it probably wants to dive when upright.

Oh, and I fly with my palm tilted about 15 degrees from upright. To the right inverted and to the left upright. Straight up and down for maneuvers

Of course, I could fly like PW and hold the handle right in front of my eyes and site down the lines. Hmm, maybe not.

OK lets stop,

This is NOT NOT NOT a thread that concerns line bias in combination with handle position. Please read the post again, it is on setting up neutral and what we do without realizing it to compensate for a wrong setting. Isky wants to differentiate between line adjustment and trim, I contend that line adjustment IS trim. If I make a trim input with and RC model or full sized aircraft for that matter, it moves a flight control surface, the same effect in made by adjusting the lines. That is the purpose of trim, so the pilot can make the aircraft fly straight and level without continual control input. Call it what you want.

Adjusting the pushrod is not the issue, the model grooves and turns well and equal, even better now that my hand is sending a consistant input to the controls rather than trying to both cut a good bottom and point the airplane horizontal again.

The handle position is a secondary and not even necessarily a related issue. The combination of both problems would probably not be noticed until the flyer begins the process of learning to fly handle vertical. This is because its easier to compensate with the hand in the palm up position then the vertical position.

Its that simple guys, we compensate for all sorts of stuff and don't even realize it. That's what I was doing and it ocurred to me that others might be doing the same thing. Lets not muddy the waters with allot of other analysis and miss the point that if you're having trouble with level flight, inverted out upright, check and see that you really in the neutral zone with the handle before you go making CG, pushrod, thrust etc, etc changes. That's all I meant.

I'm an engineer and analysis is extrememly important, even part of the way I communicate, but guys like us seem to like it so much we'll go out of our way to do it even when it not necessary. Man guys, we inundate each other sometimes and the issue is lost.

I attended the same gig as Randy, and I was a "trying to get to a vertical handle" flyer. I learned the palm up bad habit when I first tried inverted flight at sixteen. Now at 50++, I have been flying inverted with palm up at about 45 degrees. except the bottoms of outside squares and the inverted section of the wing over--both of which I revert to nearly horizontal.

I have been giving away several points in inverted by having a wandering level of flight. THe plane grooves well upright but not inverted. Of course it wasn't the plane at all--it was me. I believe after the weekend I finally have the vertical handle inverted flight "burned into reflex". I now feel that the "plane" is grooving well inverted and is much more consistent and stable inverted. I still need to stop rotating my wrist in the wingover but that too will come.

Man, those habits are hard to break!

RAndy, are you going out after work or during the day on Wed?

Curt,

That's the plan, Wednesday evening. I think I'll be there around 4:30ish.

>Curt,
>
>That's the plan, Wednesday evening. I think I'll be there
>around 4:30ish.

Guys,

If I can possibly sneak by on the way to-fro other places I will, but it's not likely. I'll be thinking of you guys in any event.

We've got to get you flying on the Kilsdonk circle at MWRC. Why, you ask? Because it's more convenient for you (which it may not be)? Naaa. Because it's rolled flat, cut short, and very well maintained? Nope. Because it's less than five miles out my front door and on my way home from work? BINGO!

Curt, congrats on your strong finish at the Michigan Champs. I showed up at 3:00 thinking you guys would fly until 5:00, but you actually were done at 1:00. Sorry I wasn't there to shout encouragement...

Thanks Andrew:

I was happy to have done as well as I did--good competition in all classes now.

I am stll getting myself dialed in to the new plane--I've only been flying it for a month and a half now--It has some better place finishes in it I think

I fly at Midwest on occasion--as a guest. I havent come to the point of dual memberships just yet.