Survey on local advancement rules

In the "Novice class" thread, the topic of advancement from class to class came up. I know what the rule book says and means, but I am curious how this is applied in various areas.

I know of several variations:

1) Win your class at a contest, and you get bumped up

2) Win your class at a contest, exceed the score (like 400 or 500), and you get bumped up

3) Exceed the score at a contest (once) and you get bumped up.

Any others?

Show up at a contest, sign up for one class and find that the ED has put you in other when you've never won a contest and never exceeded the ceiling score?

That's how I became an expert. But I'm sorta growing into it now...I guess.

That's a new one...

I'm not aware of any defining benchmarks that require "graduating" in the Northwest. It still is voluntary. Certainly winning your class once doesn't mean flyers around here must advance, nor does the occasional score over the 300/400/500 threshold, since maybe the judges were just giving out high scores on a particular day.

If anyone asked me I'd suggest they move up if their scores are close to, or consistently above the 300/400/500 line. They should also move up simply if they want to...

It's rare in these parts to have anyone hang in a class lower than they should be in. Although I have twice seen an "upgrade" where guys get booted up into the next class in the middle of a contest after their first round score was well above where it should be for a given category.

Several years ago Advanced was the most populated category, now Expert is pretty busy, with few entries in Beginner and Intermediate...

-Jerry Eichten

Brett, I've flown C/L for so long that I should be an Expert- but my scores around District VIII are always 450-480 range. This scoring also accurately reflects my scores at the Nats the last 9 or so years- so I have reached my "plateau", I suppose. Sometimes my scores will win, other times they won't. We had a bunch of Advanced flyers all move up a few years ago and their scores weren't in the 500s but they are now. So it's a scoring deal with a bit of personal decision making thrown in. I do see some see-sawing back and forth at our local contests, but I don't consider it a problem. Some contests just combine Advanced and Expert anyway. Best regards,

snip
>
>
>If anyone asked me I'd suggest they move up if their scores
>are close to, or consistently above the 300/400/500 line.
>They should also move up simply if they want to...
>
snip

Hi Jerry:

I'm not sure I understand your 300/400/500 thresholds--although I have looked at the AMA guidelines. Am I right in interpreting these to say that a move to expert would be after one is pretty consistently flying 500+ competition scores in advanced? Similarly, above 400 in intermediate one should consider moving from intermediate to advanced?

In our (Michigan, Indiana, Ohio) area, it seems to hold close to those numbers for advanced to expert but not so in intermediate. Last couple of years, its taken scores well above 450 to win intermediate Nats. Same for locals. anything less than 400 and you wont be in the top 3-5.

Not a complaint, just an observation. I see alot of overlap in scores in top of int and bottom of adv. (450-475).

snip
>It's rare in these parts to have anyone hang in a class
>lower than they should be in.
snip

That is also my observation around here. The serious guys want to move as soon as they think they wont embarrass themselves. The "fixtures" in the classes don't seem to bother anyone because most will move even before racking up a series of wins. A bit of friendly peer pressure like Brad indicated is usually enough.

Anyway, just my observations from the low end of the pile.

Curt (pondering on the move up for next year sometime)

Around here (Southeastern Area) it is usually reserved for movement only from Intermediate to Advanced. There are no "known" rules for this (around here) it's just based on a flier winning or placing/scoring high a lot of times in Intermediate. That flyer is given the "Boot" during the awards presentations. Have not "seen" an Advanced flyer "booted up" yet. It doesn't/hasn't seem(ed) to have presented any problems so far. Most flyers have moved up on their own.
Bill

Local harassment works the best I think.

For me it was I was tired of being beaten by these 10 yr old kids in beginner. So I decided ~2 yrs ago to "move up" to Intermediate. Finally after a year of smashing planes I succeeded and entered my first Intermediate contest this year! Worked on those darn kids too---my year of practice and they are now in Advanced!

>
> In the "Novice class" thread, the topic of advancement
>from class to class came up. I know what the rule book says
>and means, but I am curious how this is applied in various
>areas.

Win several contests in your class. I think a person ought to be allowed to stay in a class for an entire season if the advance is reasonably linear. I said something about mentioning to flyers that "they are bumped". Keep in mind I was doing so in a light hearted peer pressure kind of way. I like to think that it is a compliment to the flyer.

Even when I suggest that someone is ready, I still say "next time". Like you will be bumped the "next time" you fly in this contest. That would typically mean next year. That gives a flyer a whole year to get ready. Keep in mind, what I say has no real bearing on anything (no kidding ), it is just a friendly reminder that a guy is getting better... My hope is that it is well received, and frankly it has never been responded to with anything that was not positve. If I got a less than positive response I would stop.

BTW this does not apply to Ol' Dad/Bitter Ol' Man.

Oh yeah, I forgot the other method of moving up. Brad Walker decree.

Brad,

With a very few exceptions, that's what happens here. A guys wins his class a few times or is consistently at the top of the field and threatening or breaking the point barrier for the class, he (or she)gets a lot of ribbing. It's all in good fun and I've seen some that are resistent to such pressure and stay in class. That's fine, too. Others decided to take on the challenges of the next class, also cool.

Never been much of an issue around here, as far as I know.

My oar....we pretty much consider a guy that wins his class three times "booted", unless the classes are very small for those wins.

A score is tough....that is dependent upon the judges .....sometimes high scores prevail ....not to say the winner isn't the pick of the high judges, but to "bump" someone for it isn't right.

See Ya

Winning Advanced at the Brodak contest (without appearance points to boot) will get you booted to Expert every time! BTW over 500 points without those nasty 20 appearance points too.

Hi, Clayton. I know you read this board. Let's do some flying this comming weekend unless of course another Hurricane comes blowing into town! If the club isn't going to be at Bull Run Park - then at your front yard flying site??

AS Paul Walker and Don McClave have stated at several NW Contest is...."IF you score into the next division TWICE in a row (contests) You need to move up." I went from Beginner to Expert in 10 months. Not what I wanted, But I do enjoy it. There's NO pressure flying expert!
Also Flying in Expert dose not make you an expert. It's just a way to get rid of the bottom feeders...:O:

Divisions:
Beginner 0-200pt
Intermediate 201-400
Advanced 401-500
Expert 501-600
Walker 601-640..lol:7

Scott, the only way one could get a score of 0 is to not take off! However, with my skill I bet I could fly a beginners pattern and get less than my age!
Joe:P

Scott,

I think flying in Expert makes you someone that flies in Expert.

You are right though. There's little pressure in Expert class around here. It's mostly who is going to fly well enough to get 3rd or 4th or whatever. Being a middle of the pack guy, myself (when I can keep a plane in the air), I'm happy just to fly and have fun.

Hi Brett,
I flew Beginner until I placed 3 times in the top 3 and then got moved up to Intermediate. I have flown 3 times in intermediate. 1st time dead last, 2nd time placed 3rd, 3rd time placed 1st. I assume I will get bumped to advanced or maybe fly Intermediate one more time and if I place I think I will get bumped for sure.

>Hi Brett,
>I flew Beginner until I placed 3 times in the top 3 and then
>got moved up to Intermediate. I have flown 3 times in
>intermediate. 1st time dead last, 2nd time placed 3rd, 3rd
>time placed 1st. I assume I will get bumped to advanced or
>maybe fly Intermediate one more time and if I place I think
>I will get bumped for sure.

Of course, there is no path for *mandatory* bumping. The skill class you fly is entirely *your option* as long as you don't try to go backwards. You can fly in intermediate as long as you want. Sounds to me like you are probably ready, and I have no way of knowing or not, but no one can force you if you don't want to go.

Having watched this for a couple of decades (plus), I'd say that flying above the threshhold once or twice is usually what it takes to get moved up in class in the Northwest -- which usually coincides with winning a contest in the class, too, if you think about it. First score over the threshold gets mentioned at the trophy ceremony. If it happens a second time, as Randy says, there's a bit of good-natured ribbing. People seem to have bought into this system pretty much without complaint.
I don't think anybody wants to be too rigid about moving somebody up the first time they hit the threshold, simply because judging can vary and one such flight might be a fluke. Two such flights indicates a measurable improvement.
I may have the distinction of the longest period as an intermediate. What happened was that I flew one contest in intermediate (first place!) and then didn't fly stunt again for a decade. When I did fly stunt again, I figured, "Well, I've been an Intermediate for 10 years, I guess it's time to move up to advanced." Been there ever since!
--jt

the only problem with this is that the score is HIGHLY judge dependent. On the upper East coast I think it is fairly accurate to say that the scores in each class do determine who was the best flyer in the class, but they often don't bear much relationship to how good the flight was. There is a lot of "sympathy" scoring to give guys higher scores that might make them feel good.

Jim,

We will be at Bull Run on Sunday.

Ron,

I 0nly have Saturday to fly. I have to move and loading up boxes has Sunday spoken for.

Brett,
After skimming thru about 30 replies...

Even after 30 yrs of PAMPA, many of them involving efforts to standardize judging --(are we there yet? HA!)-- two perennial points seem to cause more worry than is needed. And another point bears some comment.

1. Sandbagging: -- sure, someone, somewhere may have tried to ride in a Class below ability to gather more crockery... Such guys usually were pretty well known in their areas, and not very well loved, if there were, indeed, any... Fear of sandbagging is not a reason to boost anyone too quickly.

2. Moving DOWN in Class: -- Many guys had flown better than they do now. Some change in whatever reduces their current ability. I know of no one who has voluntarily acknowledged a decline in skill. Friends who recall the better days would probably be as uncomfortable as the guy himself. Some guys do fall away rather than look bad. Others practice more to look better, again. Some even just hang on, good or bad. Up to the guy, and seldom seen as asking to fly in a lower Class.

And, the odd concern: Local standards vs. score history. Some areas in the USA are rich in numbers of very fine fliers: a bell curve approach would put many into ADV who would be the top guys in less populated (or blessed) parts of the country.

Is a local EXP from a low-population, or difficult climate region really up to flying EXP at a large meet with World and National Champs in abundance? Simple numbers, break-points, or whatever, don't define Class suitability well enough. Probably nothing can.

The best approach may be to let a flier enter a higher Class when he feels ready. If evident progress is undeniable, his club buddies, other fliers frequently met, and EDs at meets regularly attended can urge moving up. (In Tucson, some guys have been -- justifiably -- moved up by CD and/or ED. Their only reluctance had been feeling that they were ready yet.)

In a stunt-rich area, most guys know each other, and fly with each other frequently. Numbers might work there: judging should be more consistent, if not uniform; peer pressure can work, and progress is rapid, anyway. History over a season can be checked for consistency -- a rare 500+pt flight CAN happen to a flier who usually gets 400-460pts. Don't force him up for ONE lucky occasion.

Above all, let's keep it fairly loose and enjoyable. It's only which event we enter, not mortgaging a home... <G>

I believe MACA keeps a record of the top winners in combat and at the end of year they post the top ten in the US. Could PAMPA keep a rocord of a flyers yearly scores and post them in Stunt News? Most but not all contests are in SN now. At any rate, at the end of the year a flyer could be bumped to the next class based on his/her standing at the years end.

I started in intermediate in '89 and placed secong in my first outing, then won the next two. I think I flew Advanced once at the end of that year and placed. All my buddies, (Eyskens, Midgley, Stiefel) were flying advanced then, too.

The next season I won the three contests in Advanced that I entered: Flushing, NY; NEST's June meet, and the Coxsackie meet in August. Everyone was chanting "Expert - Expert", so I moved up.

Now I don't win anymore. I'm one of a bunch of guys in NewEngland fighting for third place behind Windy and Suarez, and I have a great time.

I guess it's just an honor system. You gotta move up so that you are challenged. It's the friendly battle that makes it fun. The pressure of trying to lay in a killer second flight when you're down in the pack after the first round is a rush when you pull it off.

It would not be as much fun if it were a cakewalk.

>I started in intermediate in '89 and placed secong in my
>first outing, then won the next two. I think I flew Advanced
>once at the end of that year and placed. All my buddies,
>(Eyskens, Midgley, Stiefel) were flying advanced then, too.
>
>The next season I won the three contests in Advanced that I
>entered: Flushing, NY; NEST's June meet, and the Coxsackie
>meet in August. Everyone was chanting "Expert - Expert", so
>I moved up.
>
>Now I don't win anymore. I'm one of a bunch of guys in
>NewEngland fighting for third place behind Windy and Suarez,
>and I have a great time.
>
>I guess it's just an honor system. You gotta move up so that
>you are challenged. It's the friendly battle that makes it
>fun. The pressure of trying to lay in a killer second
>flight when you're down in the pack after the first round is
>a rush when you pull it off.
>
>It would not be as much fun if it were a cakewalk.
>
>Rick

Rick, this is without a doubt the best statement I have read here or elsewhere about the motivation for moving up. It is just an honor system and that is the beauty of it. Out here in the West where I live I have a tough time placing high in Expert, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I love the competition and feel that the best way for me to improve is fly against those who are better than I am.

Thanks for stating so succinctly why it is fun to move up as soon as you feel you are ready.

Thanks for the nice words, Bill. One can guess from my post that I would not support a "Master" class of super-experts.

Finishing third to Windy & Suarez is good enough. I don't want or need a watered-down expert class first place trophy.

I should add that THIS summer I have failed to grab that coveted "third place victory". My friends Dick Carville, Waldo Cargill, Bruce Olsen, Dave Midgley, Bill Hummel have all succeed in giving me a hard time . . . and God bless 'em for doing so! There's always next year.

I did win a classic contest with my NoblARF, though. I think it was the first first-place victory for the ARF.

That and a buck fifty gets me coffee at Dunks. Whooppee.