Innovation in a static event

There was a bit on this in both MAN and Air Trails (probably FM too!) long ago. Had "Stunt" followed a slightly different path, (as was debated widely in the late '50s) we would now have something akin to the "Jim Walker Event" as run (or used to be) up in Canada; a multi-task event, using more realistic and versatile airplanes than most of the current "PA" crop.
The event IS static, and it is no wonder the VSC draws far more interest and entrants to it than the NATS does. This in and of itself should indicate clearly to all and sundry that we have a serious problem with PA as it currently exists.

Hoovie

That's my whole point, this IS a hobby, and it is supposed to be fun and relaxing. If you have 10 guys that show up at the Nats for PA, and 300 at the VSC for Classic and OTS, and IT is the largest Stunt event in the World (including the World Champs) which it is, and not the other two, then you have a REAL serious problem with the Nats and WC.
Combat is King Kahuna of C/L spectator events, no question. PA is about as boring as you can get. If you have seen one real good pattern, you have seen the entire event. Aside from models like Windy and Al Rabe and Paul Walker's, there isn't really much exciting or "different" happening...

Oh, so now you are relegating Combat to the "trailer trash" catagory, huh?
New blood in the hobby comes from drawing in the "uninitiated spectator" and PA just doesn't cut it.
I have been to the Nats, and to many local contests thru the years, and I have YET to see any (C/L) event draw more interest or onlookers (or entrants for that matter) than Combat (Scale is probably second , due to the gee wiz, that is cool factor, Racing in it's various forms might be tied there though).
PA IS boring, face it.
Once again, count how many guys show up at the Nats (AND the spectators), then count how many at the VSC, then for grins toss in the Bladder Grabber for Combat. I'll buy you and your clan a nice dinner if the latter two don't FAR outdraw PA at the Nats. Pretty sad...

JAK

There is no problem with anything in Stunt so don't try to fix something that aint broke....

Bob Reeves

It IS broken though, and needs to be fixed.
It still doesn't draw like Combat does, (or Classic & OTS at VSC), it has (like Carrier as another example) been broken a long time now, and no one seems to want to face up to that.
Who in the heck cares what we did in the '50s or '60s? This is 2001, not 1951 or '61. We have a SERIOUS problem in all of C/L today. Stunt (forgive me!) Precision Aerobatics is FAR from either immune or perfect as it sits. It is as boring and stagnant and unimaginative today as one can get.

The VSC is a unique phenomenon (four days, not three). I and many others go out for a week. The VSC takes a week to do, in my opinion. I think there is a well attended combat contest the weekend before the VSC and some folks come for both. No one interested in CL stunt should die without having been to a VSC. It is very well organized, more a celebration or a family reunion than a contest. You meet people, see interesting airplanes you won't see any place else, fly your airplanes and have fun. Nobody hassles you about anything.

I think there is more to the VSC phemomenon that just that it's OTS and Classic. The non-OTS, non-Classic CL community needs to look very carefully at the VSC and figure out what the secrets are.

I've had a number of spectators stop by when I was practicing the pattern at Buder Park in St. Louis. The usual reaction, and I've heard this many times, is, "Well Myrt, doesn't look like he is going to crash. Let's go." I've felt really honored by the few spectators who have stayed for a complete pattern.

Now VSC is an event all of itself, but it is still precision aerobatics. And the numbers speak for themselves. However, I think the timing of this happening has something to do with it, too. In the dead of winter in a warm, southern climate, when all the guys up north don't have any other contests to go to.

I won't knock combat or team racing or carrier or whatever you may like better. It is choice and we each choose what we like best. But I think control line stunt is alive and well in the US and other countries around the world. It has been estimated that only one in ten of those who fly stunt actually enter contests. I would venture to say that is not true of those who fly combat or build speed planes. The number of stunt flyers would thus out number, by far, any other control line category when we consider the number of people who fly for fun and not just those who compete.

A few more than 10 guys showed up for PA. I don't have the exact figures, but at the NATS there were something like 100 entrants in JSO/Advanced/Intermediate/Beginner this year (excluding OTS and Classic), and probably twice as many non-participants hanging around. This is about the same as VSC. This is comparable with all the other C/L events combined.

As I recall, there were 43 in open, 36 in Advanced, and there are usually about 10 in intermediate, and 15 in beginner. For reference, there were about 20-ish in OTS, and something like 35 in Classic, about half of which are dual entrants in one of the regular stunt contests.

Just because you find it boring/elitist/whatever, doesn't mean everyone else does. C/L Stunt is by far the most healthy of the C/L events, tremendously more so than Combat, for instance.

Incidentally, the most popular spectator C/L event worldwide is FAI T/R, not combat. You can see how well that's doing.

I think I would like to argue with some of you, but I am not sure I understand the initial post nor the responses. The rules of golf, tennis, fencing, and kayaking are essentially the same as they were in 1957. And that means . . . what? I am really missing the point here.

I don't understand the arguments about drawing a crowd. I doubt if Monday Night Combat will replace Monday Night Football. Are some of you suggesting a change in the PA rules to draw a bigger crowd? And the purpose is what? Seems like PA is the classic participant sport, and an inherently crummy spectator sport, no matter what the rules.

It is probably true that the average spectator will not visit a model contest. If they wandered by, they might be drawn more to combat than PA. And that means . . . what?

Again, I don't understand the argument for or against anything.

Can one of you guys summarize to an old geezer what ya'll are so het up about?

Huh???
This is real basic, and real simple. If you want C/L to continue, you need to infuse new converts into the hobby. To do that, you need to attract their attention first.
Stunt as it is flown today is BORING Sir (underscore the boring). It is as far from the basic spectator event as you can get (in C/L). Go watch a Combat match sometime, count the number of spectators watching (and the ones who ask you questions about the event, C/L in general, and getting started in same), do the same at the Stunt circles, and I will hand you a $100 bill if the folk at the former don't greatly outnumber those in the latter case. THAT is what it is all about. Jim Walker understood all this very well; he was the grand master of showmanship, you seem to have forgotten his lessons, perhaps you might study his methods.
If we don't start trying to draw more new blood into our hobby than we have been doing over the past generation, then C/L will be indeed history when the balance of the current generation folds it's tents and moves on. Is that clear enough for you?
The late Doc Passen once told me that he always found it very funny that the Stunt guys (and the AMA it seems) really hated/ignored the fact that Combat outdrew Stunt in appeal, and they would never admit it. Doc was absolutely right. If one looks at entry figures from the Nats back in the mid to late '50s (C/Ls heyday), you will find Combat entries far greater than Stunt (or any other C/L event combined) for all years you care to look at. The truth is sometimes a bitter draught to swallow.
It is all really such a hoot...

No, I think they are as they are because people dislike change (even if it is beneficial), and it is easier to be lazy and leave things as they are than admit that it is long past time to move on, and take action. Remember, the current pattern was designed because at the time, many felt the event had become "too easy". Today, it has stagnated into an over ritualized set piece event which has no imaginative appeal at all. It is time to move on again, except this time, nobody will do that, and the event will eventually die out, as will the rest of C/L when the current generation passes on.

Interesting response, to say the least... I suggest you look up the definition of the word forum sometime; does free speech bother you? And how is holding an opposing viewpoint rude? I certainly do NOT agree with you at all in ANY manner. if you don't like that, so be it.
I don't post things on a forum to get points in a mutual admiration club.

Perhaps it's a bit at cross-purposes just now. I've not had a general comment yet. It is a fact that I haven't COMPETED in stunt in 30 years, so sometimes I let some stuff pass without offering opinions. My status has always been that of a higher- performance type modeller who sometimes when I was younger could make time to participate in stunt in between combat and / or racing.
>
>I don't understand the arguments about drawing a crowd. I doubt
>if Monday Night Combat will replace Monday Night Football. Are
>some of you suggesting a change in the PA rules to draw a
>bigger crowd?

>Seems like PA is the classic participant sport, and an
>inherently crummy spectator sport, no matter what the rules.
>
Once upon a time, I usually had one or two "Slow Combat" models with me for most visits to flying fields. I didn't always run them at top speed, and often swapped the hottest of engines off for slightly less powerful ones that fit the same mounts. Some "showing off" type flying often appealed to my ego, like lying down to fly most of the tank out overhead. We're talking about after I'd been eliminated in race heats or combat matches, and when no partners needed me in the pits (I'm not one of the really "fast" Texas Combat pit men when it comes to starting engines - I do my share of holding & launching, though).

Or if it wasn't at a contest, this showing off I still will do will follow any "more serious" flying, such as checking the trim on new combat planes, which got first priority. And I'm likely to do it with no one there, no spectators at all, but one other modeller, because it's fun to fly like that.

That type stunting is more or less where the roots of the PA event were planted. I fly all of the round stuff and some of the square stuff, without any level laps, all interconnected. It is pretty effective as a crowd draw at medium speeds of 70-80 mph or so. Faster or slower it's not as interesting to the crowds.

>It is probably true that the average spectator will not visit
>a model contest. If they wandered by, they might be drawn more
>to combat than PA. And that means . . . what?
>
Not sure I can tell you. I think some folks have the feeling that PA might actually have some effect of "turning off" interest through its lack of dash and excitement (in which case, they all are really missing seeing Don Still fly).

>Again, I don't understand the argument for or against anything.
>
>Can one of you guys summarize to an old geezer what
>ya'll are so het up about?
>
My shorts aren't in a knot about anything today. I'd love to see a lot more youngsters getting started, in hopes that something of the hobby besides a few faded photos might survive me, but I have no ideas at all about what might attract a lot more of them! I taught my kids and literally dozens of their friends to fly when they were between ages seven and twelve or so; only the oldest of my own stayed in it. I don't think any of the kids we taught stayed in modelling more than a few weeks. That was circa 1971 to 1976 ("circa" seems wrong, but sort of fits).

K.

What I am trying to get at is adding the "Walker factor", a little dash of showmanship, a little more flash, a little less emphasis on the "precision" bit, a pinch more "Stunt". Innovation OUTSIDE the mechanical factor.
But you see, NONE of this will ever happen, because the people on the inside think everything is just keen, and the people outside that might be interested, get told to buzz off, because they don't spout the party line. Sorry guys, but I never will.

OK, I am getting a better picture now. You are missionaries. I am not. I don't care if future generations miss the joy of PA. I don't care if they prefer combat. I don't care if they watch TV instead of flying. I don't care about them in a fundamental way.

I don't care to change the hobby to bring in new blood. I don't care that sloth is the new way of coping with life. These are not my problems, and I feel no need to do anything to solve them. We need not modify our standards or rules to accomodate sloth or lack of interest. It is like whizzing in the woods. No one notices.

Let's keep the sport (fundamentally) the way it is, and to heck with those who don't like it the way it is. The Indy 500 would probably draw a bigger crowd if they made it a figure 8 race, but that wouldn't make it a better race. We could probably make PA a better spectator sport, but for what purpose? Children, this is a sport for participants, not spectators. Children, we don't care if we are the last generation of participants. That is not our loss. It is their loss, and I feel no need to save them from their ignorance.

Lt Col Tom McClain

"In the old days Bob G. said that there was one qualifying day and top five the next.(read that 81 flyers give or take a few at 2 flights each in one day) This made it tough because if you were in the last buch on your second round you could miss out on your second flight because the sun went down. The way it is now is really cool. Yes it does take Vacation time. What I really dont like is how there is only four circles. The PA event is bigger than old time/classic. Scale flys on Sunday so we only get two practice circles. Old time/Classic on Moday so we only get two circles again. There was 81 entries this year in Open/Advanced. Every year I go there are less and less people at the Lpad practicing. This just doesn't seem right. Maybe they could put old time on the grass since most of those planes flew on grass anyway and the would provide more practice area and bring more flyers back to the circles. DMoon"

Amazing... Could it just be possible that YOU are missing the point totally, and YOU just might be wrong??? I could turn this around and point out to you that just suppose you have 20 potential C/L fliers attracted to a good C/L showteam performance, and 3 to PA. Which group do you target? You keep the 3, I'll go after the other 17 myself, makes a LOT better sense than your approach.
Just because I point out to you that event could stand some improvement after 45 years, and you don't like it, then the messenger MUST of course be wrong...
One can't possibily criticize the sacred cow PA, can one? THAT is exactly the attitude I meant by elitism. With attitudes like this, it makes me more and more glad I have remained a "Sport" flier over my modeling lifetime. I am reminded once again why I don't like competition. Thank you for the refresher course, I had forgotten.You guys can keep your PA., and you are welcome to it..

Larry asked, "What's the point?"; good question. I guess the point is that I would have expected an event with static rules to evolve to the point where the "one best way" would be universally known, and innovation in the event would cease. This was somewhat the case during the Classic period (1953-1969) in stunt.

Of the 165,000 AMA members, 25,000 or 15% are juniors. I understand this is the largest number of juniors ever. I suspect this is not a representative sample of American youth, but is rather highly biased. Someone on one of the forums has said that we are odd birds. That is absolutely correct. Average ordinary people very seldom fly model airplanes. So let's look for the odd, like us, kids.

This is a better thread than I thought. I went through the whole thread in sequence order (the little numbers in parentheses behind the post)

Point 1: CL (not just PA) is more difficult to master than RC from a flyer's point of view. Any spectator would assume the opposite.

Point 2: That the ARF CL world is found wanting shows a lack of imaginative marketing on the CL side. I suspect that a sharp entrepreneur could set up some contracts and do the same thing with Noblers or other designs that the RC folks have done. They could sell the ARFs for $200 or less, and make enough bucks to make the effort worthwhile. Last week I saw an RC that was far more complex than a Nobler, full balsa and Monokote, for $250. The workmanship was excellent, with a stringer turtledeck. I suspect most of use most of us would gladly pay $200 for a reasonably competitive airplane with no building time. The market may or may not make this approach a reasonable business risk for a gutsy Cl entrepreneur.

Point 3: Big Country Joe has carved our a niche that has succeeded far beyond what one would expect. The U-Key series are well respected, and are the only CL ARFs available today.

Point 4: The long-tailed Czech 75 MPH combat ships could become stunt trainers with the addition of a gear. They turn tighter than most modern stunt ships. The bladder fuel system is a solvable problem. Again, all we neeed is a risk taking entrepreneur to make it a package.

Point 5: As to the rules, the current pattern leaves your lines twisted twice towards the insides. The top flyers do a couple of outsides after the cloverleaf to get the lines straight. Several did outside triangles as a "fun" stunt. Wanna make some line straightening maneuver a scorable freestyle maneuver?

Point 6: What PA is missing is crashes, in terms of crowd appeal. There is an evil in movies, TV, auto racing, and much of entertainment that glorifies crashes. Personally, I prefer the gentler life, where you build things and enjoy them. I do not like the life where destroying well-made things becomes a joy. I don't understand the mainstream that equates the destruction of well made things to entertainment.

As an aside, there is no post #25/ Did someone get out of line?

Larry F. made some mistakes because he hasn't visited every C-L Forum available:
>
>Point 2: That the ARF CL world is found wanting shows
>a lack of imaginative marketing on the CL side.

Larry, you have overlooked Mike Ogren and his father in Florida, completely, as well as the Sky Baby outfit north of him (Bratco), selling via Sig Co.

Both sell RTF's with engines. Mike's is the Plastic Fantastic & can be had as a 24" with 049's or as a 36" with 15's. I don't know much about the other outfit, but Currell already has one of their planes he is experimenting with. I'll leave correction about that omission up to someone who knows more . .

(Added in Edit later): Last time I checked, Mike also offered several sizes of a Combat-style model he calls the KISS. I do think there is a 48" size of that one for 29's-40's.

There may be a higher percentage of beginners at the Flight Lines C-L Forum than elsewhere, so the discussions of these RTF's may have been more extended over there, but the Isky regulars all do know about both Mike and the other outfit. Look up this next message thread over there and scroll down to the (currently last) reply, as of 8:29 PM last evening, price $25.

(http://www.flightlines.com/forum/Forum6/HTML/000701.html)
>
>Point 3: Big Country Joe has carved our a niche that
>has succeeded far beyond what one would expect. The U-Key
>series are well respected, and are the only CL ARFs
>available today.
>
I think you may be wrong here as well. Mike Ogren also has PF 24 & PF 36 kits for sale, as well as a couple of sizes of his "KISS" designs, including a larger one, one type or another of which, I think, are intended to be fast- building in much the same manner as the Ukie kits.

(http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=1362235&a=10154580&p=34083601&f=0)

>Point 4: The long-tailed Czech 75 MPH combat ships could become
>stunt trainers with the addition of a gear. They turn tighter
>than most modern stunt ships.

On that score, you are ahead of me. I've not yet heard of any such planes, but several Texas modellers have used George's (GRS Models') F2D's successfully with 25's.

>The bladder fuel system is a solvable problem.

Shoot, I'd say it's an opportunity. Bladders are better than hard tanks in a jillion ways; we just need someone to assemble a bunch and start selling them for $30 a dozen or whatever.
>
>As an aside, there is no post #25/ Did someone get
>out of line?
>
Sometimes a messager may get a message back from his software that seems to indicate that his message wasn't actually accepted by the software at a message forum, and is left looking at his own answer page as if he still needs to re-send. The result is a dupe, and some forums allow the originator to delete his own, but when he does so, the message numbering gets off by one digit. You can figure out who did it, usually. Just look for item number 24 in this case. And if we can't do it ourselves, maybe it's Leonard just being a good "housekeeper"? ("Ah, Ha!")

The K.

Thanks, and I hoped I had made some errors of omission. Glad to hear about the Ogren's planes.

However, I am sad that no one has a big, hairy .35 and up ARF or RTF available except for Joe. My point was that the RC guys have those planes handed to them on a platter, and we CL folks don't.

My dream is to be able to buy an ARF Nobler or equilivant for $200, and that does not exist. My dream is to buy an ARF flapless stunter for $100 that does the whole pattern. I suspect the market is there, just a matter of finding the right guy to sell the package. The RC guys have those options, primarily due to better marketing, IMHO.

Jumping back a bit on this thread- Stunt may be boring to non-participants & combat may make more people stop & watch, but if you REALLY want to draw a crowd put up A Bi-Slob!!! We did all three (plus banner tows & general sport planes) at PIR last weekend & the Bi-Slob drew more spectators than the combat planes OR the stunters! Several people came over & specifically asked to see that goofy black thing with the skull & crossbones on it fly again!

Constructive criticizm is one thing, JAK. Uninformed ranting, raving and pollution of the forum through blatant statements totally unsupported by the facts is quite another. Your entire contribution to this thread falls neatly into the latter and completely ignores the potential benefit to the hobby that the former approach might have had, had you chosen to investigate the evidence rather than to blather about your preconceived and falacious "opinions" as to the popularity of CLPA as it exists today.

I've attended every...repeat...every VSC since its inception. I've attended a total of 29 Nats CLPA events including all but one since 1974. I can state accurately and can provide the numbers that indicate that CLPA today is not only the finest event in C/L at the nats in terms of quality but is also, bar none, THE MOST POPULAR C/L EVENT BY A FACTOR OF SEVERAL TIMES. This includes not only competitors but spectators as well.

For many reasons, most not germane to this thread, C/L COMBAT AT THE NATS IS BARELY A MOTE IN THE EYE OF CLPA IN TERMS OF NUMBERS OF CONTESTANTS, NUMBERS OF SPECTATORS AND QUALITY OF ADMINISTRATION. Several other c/l events have eclipsed combat in terms of participants as well. this is more the result of lack of combat flyers than it is of large numbers in other events.

VSC is indeed a great enterprise which attracts a large following every year. There are a lot of entries; not as many as in the combined events at the nats since most fly both events thus making the number of aircraft nearly twice the number of entrants, but a lot nonetheless. It is a valuable and significant addition to the popularity and attraction that stunt offers the modeling community. It isn't larger or better than the nats events. It is slightly smaller and a totally different experience. It is worth noting that both the CLPA NATS and VSC are signigicantly larger single event happenings than any other c/l single event competition. (For the sake of honesty, I say that without supporting evidence. I am more than willing to stand corrected if anyone can provide evidence of a combat/carrier/racing or speed event consistently more popular in terms of participants and/or spectators. I probably won't accept JAK's "opinion" that there are such. I'd much rather wait for an informed statement.)

JAK, you are operating and pontificating from a position of ignorance and have found it necessary to be rude to those who tried in a polite way to disagree and/or advise you of the error of your ways. Why you find it necessary to be so unabashedly unpleasant in your vituperation says more about you personally than your ill-conceived opinions say about your point of view.

JAK, I frankly don't care a fig whether you find CLPA boring personally...oops, not quite true...I am pleased that you do so, since it means I don't have to worry about you showing up at my flying site and polluting the amiable atmosphere. A place where a large number of excited stunt fliers of various abilities show up on a regular basis to not only share their wisdom with each other but to simply enjoy the comraderie of people with shared interests.

Thanks to PAMPA, cottage industry suppliers, web forums such as Len's and the inherent attraction of the multi-faceted and challenging demands of a GREAT event whose difficulty has made it unnecessary to alter those demands, stunt is THE MOST POPULAR, VIGOROUS AND HEALTHY EVENT IN THE CONTROL LINE WORLD.

THOSE ARE THE FACTS, JAK!

Cute... Juvenile, but it's funny, and I do appreciate the time you wasted writing it when you could have been doing something really productive for yourself. This is all such a kick.
You just proved my point.
Thank you for again reminding me of why I consider PA "elitist". As for ranting and pontificating and not looking at facts, you might try taking a good look in the mirror first.
NOW you guys know why we are doomed to follow the dinosaurs into extinction. Can't handle it Ted? Tough...

Usually performed by those wishing to draw attention to themselves, or to impress their other trolling pals.

Typical techniques are: posting inflammatory messages ("How much cholesterol does Siamese cat meat contain?" to rec.pets.cats), attacking icons (see post below), and generally posting things so absurd as to demand a response. Maximizing the number of responses is the goal, with 100 being the magic number for a USENET troll. An effective defense is to simply not respond to any posts by the offender (see also Mail Filter/killfile).

Attaching a small electric motor to his bass boat, John Kelinske wrote:

<<nothing worth repeating>>>

As a troll, I give this message about 2/10. No style at all, too direct, posted to a moderated forum, and certain to die on the vine before the magic 100 post milestone is met. My recommendation: head over to alt.syntax.tactical, read the FAQ, learn your craft, then try again.

By the way, the only word I agree with in your entire post is "juvenile", unfortuntely, it's mis-directed.

See you,and best wishes,

Oh, JAK, JAK, JAK. Whatever will we do with you. First you demand your right to pontificate on a subject on which you have absolutly no facts to back up your point of view. Then you demand that you have the right to be confrontational in expressing your ignorance and disparage those who find your conrontational nature unneccessary. Then, when somebody answers you in kind you take umbrage in his so doing.

Sounds clearly to me that you are the one who "can't take it", JAK.

Once again, JAK, that you find the event boring is a personal issue and one with which none can argue. I wouldn't even pretend to deny your right to be personally less enthusiastic about any non-life threatening activity than about others. What I take exception to and what your rant reposte fails to address is the total fabrications you use to ostensibly support your point of view.

Are you able to challenge the facts of the matter or are you simply a keyboard curmudgeon who gets off on seeing your uninformed nonsense in a world wide forum. Seems to me you ought to at least try to know what you're talking about before you broadcast your ignorance for the entire world to use as comedy relief.

Ted

p.s. JAK, I can continue this exchange more or less forever. You're every contribution only makes it easier. What won't change is the fact that your entire argument is built on vapors and no amount of elitist name calling will ever overcome the reality that no matter whether you behave congenially or continue to act like the town boor you will still be wrong in the underlying fundamentals of your contention.

I, on the other hand, am coming from a foundation of well considered and supportable data which will never change. Ergo, you can continue to rant and ignore the reality that all can see your emperor immitation "has no clothes" or you can fold your tent and live to rant another day. Makes no difference to me

My other "hobby" is running, and I see an analogy here. I (increasingly slowly) run races, such as the 5K and 10K, and I'll admit: it's only mildly interesting for me to watch people run around a track almost 27 times (10K) almost without lead changes, with only the last lap or so has any real excitement. I "should" be a rabid follower of track and field, and I am not. But I do participate; a lot.

What I'm trying to do here is present a small portion of jake's case without the emotional part. I definitely disagree with jake about the elistist stuff; if anything, the more prominent the flyer, the MORE helpful and congenial. I see this first hand at Toledo each year, and on the flying fields. One former Nats Stunt Winner spends much of his time teaching Newbies how to fly.

OK, it's RC, but the thought is there

Behind the E Z Just is the place to be, no doubt. A "bad" day at the flying field still beats just about any alternative. Give me a Ringmaster with a warped wing any day.

I, on the other hand, am coming from a foundation of well considered and supportable data which will never change. Ergo, you can continue to rant and ignore the reality that all can see your emperor immitation "has no clothes" or you can fold your tent and live to rant another day. Makes no difference to me"

So can I Ted.
Talk about "elitism", the above is a perfect example of what I meant.
I would NEVER have typed a singe letter in reply, all you did was prove my point by wasting your energy, better spent elsewhere. You are a VERY bright gent, and a great competition flier, but sparring with me is like trying to sink a floating cork with a sledge hammer.

Point 1, however...Very debatable. Don't ask mice for their opinions on cheese. RC guys have been known to kill on less controversial topics.

ARFs: What I'm seeing with the Bratco SkyBaby and HexDrone is very encouraging. Let them next come out with an .074 powered job.

Then a .15.

And, finally...Something wrapped around a Norvel .25. For 2 Bills. 50" span. Good looking.

Ande here's something that will get me flamed: supply the lines with the kit, just like 1/2A.

But not steel braided.

Sullivan Aramid! Yes, you read right. Those hated things that are good only for stoogies, and only just. So much scorn has been heaped on these innocent henna-colored lines at the various BBs. Shame on all of you.

Why? Because this ARF will sell directly to Newbies, sometimes, and the first thing they'll screw up are steel lines. Guaranteed. Then they are stuck.

Earth to all SSS BBers: those funny lines last. And last.

So what if they have the drag of Rupaul on a Saturday night. (Or here's one all of you will comprehend: the drag of three of my home built bipes). Just get the Newbie in the air. And keep him there.