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Ted F, Brett B, Howard R, Experts & Judg...

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Randy Ryan · Sep 29, 2003 08:47 AM

Ted F, Brett B, Howard R, Experts & Judges#0 source
LAST EDITED ON Sep-29-03 AT 01:37 PM (CDT)
 
Hey guys, how about some input in the Maneuvers threads (thanks Brett for you TO/Landing input) we could all use your help. I'm only a mediocre Advanced flyer with not enough time to practice so you guys could sure add some refinements between the lines. And judges could let us know the major errors they see.

Please make sure your input is in the Third Maneuver thread, not this one.

Thanks,

Randy Ryan
AMA 8500
SAM 36
I fly 'em all and love it!

Bob Reeves · Sep 29, 2003 11:38 AM

RE: Ted F, Brett B, Howard R, Experts & Judges#1 source
I am also a mediocre Advanced flyer but I have judged for the last 3 years. One item I see consistently with Intermediate flyers is the tendency to round off the outside portion of the square loop and square eight.

I know it is tough to point the nose straight down knowing you are going to pull out inverted and the only way I know to get it right is practice. From a judges stand point I would score a properly shaped square loop or square eight flown a little high than I would score a backward D flown at 5 foot. Just food for thought...

Randy Ryan · Sep 29, 2003 11:44 AM

RE: Ted F, Brett B, Howard R, Experts & Judges#2 source
Thanks Bob,

Let's hold that thought for when we get to square loops. I'm trying to start a discusion of maneuvers in order by simply having flyers describe their techniques and having judges input on common errors they see. The current but as yet unrelpied to thread is Third Maneuver, inside loops.

Randy Ryan
AMA 8500
SAM 36
I fly 'em all and love it!

Bill Little · Sep 29, 2003 12:27 PM

RE: Ted F, Brett B, Howard R, Experts & Judges#4 source
I, too, would really LOVE to know what is going through the heads of the top guys when they are actually flying.
WHERE ARE YOU GUYS????
Oh, yeah....... many are WORKING right now!
I'll holler if there ain't some posts on this subject tonight!
Bill

Dont worry about the mule going blind 'til you get the cart loaded!

godzilla · Sep 29, 2003 12:26 PM

RE: Ted F, Brett B, Howard R, Experts & Judges#3 source
And judges could let us know
>the major errors they see.

I have a few pet peaves.

There is so much emphasis on squares and corners, what about the rounds? Rounds are round. When a stunt plane flies a true round the tail never stops turning at a constant angle of attack. If the tail stops turning, that's called a "flat". Rounds are not flat anywhere.

Mostly what I see are the follwing.
1. Not steeep enough angle of entrance. The airplane should begin turning quickly and constantly. Most entries are too slow, and that is why the first loop is walked to the left, and the second two are slightly right.
2. Flats on the tops. Super common. Not dinged nearly enough IMHO.
3. Flats on the tops lead to late hook-flips on the bottoms.
4. "looking for the top, looking for the bottom, looking for the top, looking for the bottom, etc...."
5. Too big, try smaller. It is actually easier.
6. Be aggressive. Pull the airplane round.

For excellent rounds watch Ted, David, and Doug Moon.

The City Smasher

Ted Fancher · Sep 30, 2003 11:44 PM

RE: Ted F, Brett B, Howard R, Experts & Judges#8 source
>And judges could let us know
>>the major errors they see.
>
>I have a few pet peaves.
>
>There is so much emphasis on squares and corners, what about
>the rounds? Rounds are round. When a stunt plane flies a
>true round the tail never stops turning at a constant angle
>of attack. If the tail stops turning, that's called a
>"flat". Rounds are not flat anywhere.
>
>Mostly what I see are the follwing.
>1. Not steeep enough angle of entrance. The airplane
>should begin turning quickly and constantly. Most entries
>are too slow, and that is why the first loop is walked to
>the left, and the second two are slightly right.
>2. Flats on the tops. Super common. Not dinged nearly
>enough IMHO.
>3. Flats on the tops lead to late hook-flips on the
>bottoms.
>4. "looking for the top, looking for the bottom, looking
>for the top, looking for the bottom, etc...."
>5. Too big, try smaller. It is actually easier.
>6. Be aggressive. Pull the airplane round.
>
>For excellent rounds watch Ted, David, and Doug Moon.

'zilla,

Good stuff. Here's a bit of a kicker, however. You are exactly correct that the "tail should never stop turning". No exactly the way I would have described but exactly true nonetheless. What can't be extrapolated from that statement, however, is the expectation that the motion will be constant for a "round" loop. This is pretty esoteric stuff, but important. From the judge's or pilot's point of view you can't let yourself be satisfied with a constant rate of tail motion. Here's why.

The rules state that we are looking for a flight path that describes a true circle...and constant radius. This seems to imply what you suggest in terms of a constant rate of change of the tail relative to the flight path. Actually, this is never true and in some cases might even be significantly in error.

I think we can accept that the circular path we are looking for will be traced by the Center of Gravity of the ship. If we could mount a laser flashing from the CG directly across the circle we could photograph the pulses and determine how precisely the airplane as an entity traced a circular path.

What the path of the tail will be telling us throughout this circular CG path is what angle of attack the aircraft required in order to devleop the lift necessary to achieve this path. On a very light, high speed ship this tail rate of change angle will vary only a tiny amount and might even appear to the judge to be a constant.

If, however, the ship is heavy and flown slowly the angle of attack required to maintain this constant CG radius will alter significantly as the G forces and the airspeed constantly vary throughout the loop.

This will result in a comparatively slow tail motion relative to the CG path going up and a much more significant relative motion coming downhill after the ship has slowed in the climb and then needs a progressively higher angle of attack to maintain the radius as the airspeed gradually increases...consequently reducing the angle of attack.

In other words, the motion of the tail relative to the CG will be constantly changing based on the constantly changing airspeed and the consequent change in angle of attack necessary to continue to produce the lift coefficient required to maintain the CG's circular flight path at constantly changing airspeeds.

Thus, the judge has to be very cautious not to interpret the increasing rate of tail motion relative to the aircraft path as an egg shaped increase in the rate of flight path change.

This is just a very long winded way of stating that evaluating the flight path of round maneuvers isn't as easy as one would think. Also, that the perception of the flight path (similar to earlier threads discussing the "illusion" of corners) won't always be completely accurate.

Judging ain't easy.

Ted

SRiese5283 · Oct 01, 2003 12:12 AM

RE: Ted F, Brett B, Howard R, Experts & Judges#9 source
Thus, the judge has to be very cautious not to interpret the increasing rate of tail motion relative to the aircraft path as an egg shaped increase in the rate of flight path change.

Most of the PLANE is behind the CG. AXES or where the plane turns is also behind the cg. If the plane rotates to pull up for the loop the nose and tail have to travel at differant speeds. Correct! This is for the rounds.
The front of the plane is pulling the ship. This track is A. The CG is following the pull this is B. The tail follows the cg and the pull. Each have there own (lets say Orbit)
I SEE WHERE YOU ARE GOING. Thanks Ted

Scott(my head hurts)Riese:9

Scott Riese

godzilla · Oct 02, 2003 08:21 AM

RE: Ted F, Brett B, Howard R, Experts & Judges#11 source
>Good stuff. Here's a bit of a kicker, however. You are
>exactly correct that the "tail should never stop turning".

I definately see what you are saying, but in practical terms, I think the rule can be very relavent.

Todays constant speed engines do not allow large changes in air speed. Usually, if the pilot has an engine/plane setup that allows a large amount of speed change in the manuevers, it will be very evident in the rounds, especially at the bootom, where the airplane will have too much speed and the angle of attack will have to be changed to be more positive to counter act the natural steepness of the bottom. This is especially true of the double whammy, the winding up engine and the heavy plane (as you mentioned) or the TRIPLE WHAMMY a heavy plane, winding engine, and biasing in a heavy wind (this is a recipe for any shape other than a round).

This is where the bottom "hook" comes from, which is an overcompensation of what I just mentioned.

I certainly understand what you are saying, and it certainly sounds correct in terms of the physics, but in terms of my own personal perspective on judging I first look for a constant fuselage angle slightly greater than the tangent of the circle. With today's long tail moment planes, it is very evident to see. Typically, but certainly not always, a fuselage angle that is closer to tangent indicates a loop that is closer to 60 degrees than 45 degrees. There certainly ways to fool this perspective, for example by building very small planes on long lines, but in general I see this a lot.

Judging happens very fast. It's hard.

The City Smasher

Howard Rush · Sep 29, 2003 09:50 PM

RE: Ted F, Brett B, Howard R, Experts & Judges#5 source
That's flattering, but I don't know enough about flying stunt to contribute.

DMoon · Sep 30, 2003 01:48 AM

RE: Ted F, Brett B, Howard R, Experts & Judges#6 source
I to along with Brad seem to see alot of emphasis on one thing or another instead of the main issue. Shape. I know I know we are trying to fly the best shapes we can. But sometimes I see people begin to ignore it and move onto other aspects of the pattern. Shapes, stay after shapes until you have them wired.

The way to really learn to wire your shapes is to learn to "see" them. If you have a partner and he routinly coaches you it would be a good idea to fly a few pattenrs in a row and discuss what you are seeing. Trust him to tell you what is actually being seen from outside. Once you can see what he is seeing half the battle is over. Work on a few items at a time. Total pattern critiquing after each flight is helpful but all that info is hard to use at once. Once your coach or flying partner knows your natural tendencies then you and he can correct one ot two at a time. As they begin to dissapear you move onto to more detail oriented stuff.

Learning to see your mistakes in every maneuver is a huge step.

I know this may sound weird but stare at the whole maneuver if you can. Dont try this until you are really really comfortable with a maneuver. Like three rounds. Try to use your peripheral vision to see the whole thing while you are still concentrating on the plane. Brad is correct the plane should always look to be rotating. The tail never stops moving.

Another way to really move forward is to work on intersections. USe something in the background and hit it everytime. On the round eights the plane should only be verticle for the length of the model's fuse. Well that isnt very much time so dont wait until it is vert to change the input. Anticipate it ahead of time and know where it is going to happen. Get ahead of the plane in the maneuver and get ready and it will start to look like two quarters side by side.

On overhead eights intersections keep telling yourself during the maneuver "Tail points at the judges" Alot of guys me included leave it short and criss cross at the top, forming an X. Alot of other guys over rotate it and create an S. So when you enter go right off the judges and keep note where the tail is. Again this is a round maneuver so the tail should never appear to stop rotating. As you come through the int you should point the tail right at the judges each time. Recently I have been practicing overheads real BIG. I try to put the int at the top of the circle and then put the loop bottoms at 5 feet. Once I had that wired. I went back did some small normal ones and they were so easy to see. I was just messing around when I tried and kept it up for a few sessions and then it seemed to help my overall overheads. I like the big ones. 90 to 5 is very hard while keeping it round. It is fun.

One last thing. I see alot of guys who dont fly the maneuvers directly in front of them. For left handers this can be a good thing so the body isnt in the way but make sure your head and lead shoulder are facing the maneuver. But for righters you should try your best to be fully facing the maneuver. FLying off one side will probably cause it to be lopsided to one side. Body position is a big part of the game. Keep the maneuvers right out in front of you.

If I can think of more things I will post them. I hope this helps. It helps me to write them all down. It is easy to forget alot of the little tips you learn along the way.

Hope some of this helps.


Doug Moon

Ion Brazil · Sep 30, 2003 07:21 PM

Gooood, Doug!!!#7 source

Gonna copy and paste what you wrote!

A big "thumbs up" for you! I'd love to be able to have you as a coach...

In Christ,

Ion

Iskandar Taib · Oct 02, 2003 01:52 AM

RE: Gooood, Doug!!!#10 source
How about Len's technique of keeping the maneuvers high until you've learned to make the shapes proper? And then bring them down.

Ferocious · Oct 02, 2003 11:20 AM

RE: Gooood, Doug!!!#12 source
works good until you see the ground and flinch.

The 5 ft. height is what separates Expert from Intermediate, among other things.