Fox 35 starting procedures, non elec. st...

I would like to know how "you" get a Fox 35 to start on the first or second flip. Don't "want" to use an electric starter.
Thanks,
Bill

Don't count the first 10! Right Fred??

Seriously, breakin is the key element. When the Fox is broken in, just getting it wet will work almost every time.

I think it is a matter of just becoming familiar with your engine. People who know Foxes generally get one or two flip starts cold. Watching others of these folks, I have see widely varying techniques. My own was to choke the engine 4 times, put the battery on, flip and go fly.

>I would like to know how "you" get a Fox 35 to start on the
>first or second flip. Don't "want" to use an electric
>starter.

It's been an awfully long time, but this is how I used to do it (hot or cold, with inverted engine).

Attach battery
finger over intake
pull through forwards until you get a bump
remove finger, flip fowards

Hi Bill,

I have a GMA Fox .35 ABC, stuffer back plate, ST needlevalve & Blue Majic Head on a Ringmaster. It takes 4-5 chokes then turn it over several times & it mostly starts in a couple of flips. If you have the engine mounted inverted flip the plane over on its back to start.

It also depends on the fazes of the moon, planet alinement, if a "Foxy" women talks to it just before the start or when the pressure is on (Contest).

LAST EDITED ON Oct-01-03 AT 12:10 PM (CDT)
 
>Hi Bill,
>
>I have a GMA Fox .35 ABC, stuffer back plate, ST needlevalve
>& Blue Majic Head on a Ringmaster. It takes 4-5 chokes then
>turn it over several times & it mostly starts in a couple of
>flips. If you have the engine mounted inverted flip the
>plane over on its back to start.

I had A LOT better luck starting them with the cylinder down (airplane on it's feet) than I ever did with them upright. You have to get so much fuel in the crankcase before it will get up into the cylinder that once it does try to start, all that fuel sloshes up there and puts out the fire.

It's very similar on it's side - too much gas is in the rest of the engine long before it gets into the cylinder.

Inverted, you can get fuel in the cylinder without having a lot of fuel in the rest of the engine. That's why the "pull through till you get a bump" thing works. It fills up the intake stack until enough spills over the top, into the crankcase. Then, you take your finger off and all the excess spills out on the ground.

Brett

p.s. The symptom of the "crankcase flooding" is that the engine either "pops" repeatedly, but won't keep running, and/or it sticks at a position where the cylinder is under compression. The fix - flip it through backwards. This pumps the fuel out the venturi, and what usually happens is that the "pops" get longer and longer until it runs backwards. If you pinch the fuel tube while it's running backwards, it will slow down. Just before it quits, let go of the fuel line, and it will *usually* start forwards. If it stops, one forward flip with get it going. bb

No need that I ever saw to turn an inverted Fox over to start it. Engines generally start better inverted than they do upright Ask anyone who flys team race. Never-the-less do whatever your Fox wants.

I do pretty much like Brett does. I choke it for four to six turns, give it three hard flips, connect the glo plug driver, turn it until it bumps and flip it like crazy. Usually it will start within the hour. Just kidding. It usually starts in one or two flips. However, it must be a broken in engine. New on the test stand depends on the phase of the moon. 10% nitro helps.

> However, it must be a
>broken in engine. New on the test stand depends on the phase
>of the moon. 10% nitro helps.

15% helps even more!

Of course, all of this assumes that the engine was well broken in. Mine certainly was - it takes A LOT of time to run 25 gallons of fuel through a Fox at 4 oz a flight. Even in retrospect, I am impressed with the durability this implies.

Choke the engine until the fuel line is filled. Apply fire to your glow plug, and make sure that it is in the Hot range. Put a little fuel both in the exhaust and venturi. Turn the prop over slowly two or three times; you may feel the "bump" then. (This is simply a variation on some of the previous posts).

Make sure that the prop is set at an "o'clock" position that suits your manual flipping style. If not, take a few seconds to correct this. I like the right side (viewed from the front) blade around "3:30" or so, just a little past horizontal (I flip with a finger guard). If you are the type that uses a Chicken Stick, you may prefer "batting" the prop downward; here, you could select the left side (from the front) at about the 10:00 position. I've seen some guys that could really persuade a Fox to do just about anything, with this starting technique.

What really separates the Dukes (groan) from the Serfs is hot starting your Ft. Smith Pride + Joy.

And, for some lucky, well broken in engines, you do...nothing at all. If the engine has only cooled just a bit, simply apply fire, and hit that prop. You will get a one flip start, if you are positioning your tonque just so.

For other hot Fox starts, you may want to just barely choke fuel into the line, but nothing more than that.

But...they vary, and you need to experiment. Some may need a venturi prime nudge; just a suggestion of fuel; vapors, really...

(That has been my experience with about two dozen of venerable design, from two backplate "Sandcasts" to 50th Anniv jobs).

And, no, I haven't run that black and gold $150 one yet.

I've learned not to "put fire on the glow plug and then a little in the exhaust". Probably better to not have the glow plug glowing when introducing fuel in the exhaust. FWIW.All the best,

LAST EDITED ON Oct-01-03 AT 01:09 PM (CDT)
 
>I've learned not to "put fire on the glow plug and then a
>little in the exhaust". Probably better to not have the glow
>plug glowing when introducing fuel in the exhaust.

Heh-heh! I USED to squirt fuel in the exhaust with the battery on - but you better make the engine compartment out of asbestos!

By the way, one thing to concern yourself with on 4-strokes is a backfire, followed by real fire. Uncle Jimby took his airplane apart after some contest to find that there was a very significant area of charred wood where it had flambe'd itself. A word to the wise.

I have a note with my black/gold 50th that says for display only. I looked and there is a piston in it...

Mine says the same thing. Not only that, but the fit is not as good as the ones put out for running purposes.
Shore is purty tho.

Bigiron

All of the responses are good information.

If it's case flooded which is easy to do flip it backwards off compression to start it.

Alan's comment is 100% right, it won't start easy until it's fully broke-in. Break-in is started on the bench but it still takes about 20 to 30 flights before it is fully broke-in. The piston grows as it heats up and sets as it cools down. Flying creates heat cycles that the bench doesn't.

Bill,

Two things no one has mentioned yet! HOT Plug and FULLY charged battery. Everyone has their favorite plug. My favorite is the Thunderbolt RC Long. As far as glo starters go, my current favorite is the McDaniel twist on type, but I've found that any of the rechargeable NiCd types will work if they are fully charged. I've seen several starters made with standard D cells arranged in parallel the 1.5 Volt D Cell will work better than a 1.3 NiCd every time. I just like the convienence of puting the NiCd in my pocket. One less thing to forget where you left it.

Hey Bruce, I did too mention the Hot plug

Also, I agree with the McDaniels (now under a new brand name). I take as many as three out with me, just in case.

More on flooding...I have seen many an experienced modeler misdiagnose this conditon, thinking it was the plug, fuel, "engine", phases of the moon, etc. Yes, you can back flip first, but this does not always get rid of the truly flooded cases. What I have found to be also effective is simply to needle the thing down completely, and just flip it out, until you get a burst. If you are quick, you can twirl the needle open during this burst, and sustain a run, and go fly.

Also, agreeing fully with other posters here, break in is extremely important, especially on hot starts. If you want a good Fox, go to any swap, and find a grungy example. Just make sure that the front bearing still is tight; it can have less than perfect compression. In fact, if it is real loosy goosy when you test flip it in your hand, with the prop bouncing back and forth 5 times or so, grab it! Oh yes, check the lugs for cracks, or egregiously oversized holes, and even the latter are not fatal.

The best part is that these engines usually are never priced much more than $25. They have another 50 hours in them at least with the right fuel, and you don't have to bother with a lengthy breakin.

Never had a Fox that I couldn't start case flooded unless it was worn out.

Messing with the needle just sets you up to nail you fingers in the prop if your trying to be quick.

A good piston seal (compression) is the most important item in a good starting and good running Fox.

>
>Messing with the needle just sets you up to nail you fingers
>in the prop if your trying to be quick.

What you do here is have your hand already on the needle. I'm assuming that you have someone holding the plane, or it is stooged.

True, Fox NVA's stink, and they are closer than most to the prop.

This is a post from "Cavis" posted elsewhere that was intended for here:

I use the following proceduce
a. first leave off the glow plug battery,
b. place a finger on the carborator opening,
c. if fuel is not in the fuel line, turn the prop over with your other hand until fuel is just in the line.
e. now turn flip the prop one or two times, but no more
f. place the glow plug battery on the glow plug
g. place the prop blade in your hand with your fingers wrapped around the blade,
h. now turn the prop over until you feel the engine beginning to fire.
i. when this occurs remove you hand from the prop and flip the prop normally. The engine should start within one or two flips.
j. when the engine starts get behind the airplane to remove the glow plug battery, do not try to remove it from the front of the airplane.
Always have someone hold the airplane while you start it or if you are by yourself tie the plane to something that hold it.
The reason for placing the prop in you hand with your fingers wrapped around the blade is to feel the engine wanting to run and to protect your fingers from getting hurt by the engine firing to soon.
Warning always use the upmost care when starting any engine to prevent finger whacking and other unwanted occurances.

Probably the biggest thing in starting an engine by hand, assuming it is in reasonable shape, is
1) flip the prop as close to the shaft as possible. One inch of finger movement at the root equals about 5 inches mid blade. Very difficult to flip fast enough far out from the root of the prop.
2) Flip "smartly" as our British friends are wont to say. A good combat pit man can flip the prop faster than an electric starter when needed. Wimpy, lackadaisical flips won't do it.

>Probably the biggest thing in starting an engine by hand,
>assuming it is in reasonable shape, is
>1) flip the prop as close to the shaft as possible. One
>inch of finger movement at the root equals about 5 inches
>mid blade. Very difficult to flip fast enough far out from
>the root of the prop.
>2) Flip "smartly" as our British friends are wont to say. A
>good combat pit man can flip the prop faster than an
>electric starter when needed. Wimpy, lackadaisical flips
>won't do it.

I would suggest otherwise. If you get the engine primed and loosened up properly, most if not all stunt motors will start with next to no flip at all. I haven't flipped a PA61 or RO-Jett "through" more than 10 times in my life, at least with the battery on, because I'm scared to. Get it primed, and then just grab the spinner and twist it backwards to it lightly bumps up against compression, and off it goes.

You don't flip large stunt motors with graphite props "through", unless you have a really good microsurgeon handy.

Since 1999, I've been flying a Sig Mustang with Lee mods powered by a Fox 35 ABC (Fox P/S, Marvin Denny head). I've got quite a bit of experience with this setup, so this is what works for me. Actually, I just use minor variations for all my glow motors.
1. Fuel it.
2. I have someone hold the plane inverted. This positions the engine with the glow plug up.
3. Two choked flips or pull-through.
4. Flip the prop around 15 times. You should feel the engine get wet. A plain bearing motor like the Fox will get nice and bouncy feeling as the fuel migrates in the engine. Always be careful flipping without the ignitor. I've had several engines start this way!
5. Attach the glow ignitor.
6. Grasp the prop FIRMLY and rotate it through compression. You should feel a bump.
7. Remove the ignitor and rotate the prop through compression. This clears the burnt charge.
8. Attach the glow ignitor.
9. Flip to start. Mine usually starts in 1 to 3 flips.
10. Remove the glow ignitor.
11. Coordinating with your pit man, flip the plane back over.

One more comment. A well broken-in Fox 35, with the prop that makes it 'happy'( mine likes a 10.5 x 5), mounted in a full-fuse airplane is a joy to fly. I have very predictable engine runs, solid 4-cycle with little 2 stroke burps in the corners. I have none of the problems associated with profile fuse mounted Foxes. Just a real predictable stunt run.

Fred:)

>One more comment. A well broken-in Fox 35, with the prop
>that makes it 'happy'( mine likes a 10.5 x 5), mounted in a
>full-fuse airplane is a joy to fly. I have very predictable
>engine runs, solid 4-cycle with little 2 stroke burps in the
>corners. I have none of the problems associated with
>profile fuse mounted Foxes. Just a real predictable stunt
>run.
>

There were a lot of good reasons they won all those contests! I had pretty mucht he same experience with mine - it just worked, time after time.

If you look back to my original reply on this subject, you might understand my answer better. I always love Fred's "One Flip" starts!