Maneuvers 5&6, Everybody chime in!

>while the outsides are actually identical to the insides, psychologically they are more
>imposing, I think that's true for all of use or at least was. I find myself continually telling
>myself to settle down and fly the airplane, if you watch me at a contest you will notice that
>this isn't a mental thing, I talk to myself....allot. Not much more to say here, location, size
>and shape are the issues just as in the insides.

Randy-

I will watch this one closely. While watching many contest and practice patterns seems to verify your outside loop comments, this does not explain the fact that I have crashed all four times I've tried the simple outside loop in anything but a vertical eight - damaging and ultimately destroying two models and damaging a third!

I crashed a "Buster" entering upright at about 70 degrees altitude on 60' lines. Then a heavy kit built "SkyRay" piled in twice from inverted entries, one of which was high. The present lighter balsa "SkyRay" went in after completing 3/4 of a second outside loop started relatively high (about 40 degrees?) after completing the outside loop portion of an attempted vertical eight a bit too low to confidently try the last inside bottom.

The present SkyRay" weighs 29.5 oz, has about 40 degrees of elevator deflection (symmetrical), an appropriately restrained push rod, and has the c.g. right where Brett Buck suggested on this forum. I had increased its stab area by 8% and elevator area by 28% (1/4" greater chord and 1" greater span). The only thing "wrong" with either "SkyRay" was widely spaced leadouts centered too far aft, which caused excessive yaw, but did not seem to affect high maneuvers too badly. Each "SkyRay" had 3 degrees of out thrust, minimized rudder offset, and employed a tab to correct wing warpage; they flew level upright and inverted. I had only flown this last one a couple times and was not comfortable with it; so there must still have been some trim issues that I hadn't analyzed. All three planes were Fox .35 powered and were having good runs in winds ranging from about 1-15 kts on the various days. I might have lost some speed in a couple of these.

All of these outside loop crashes were vertical - straight into the ground - after completing 270 degrees. That is, they consisted of 3/4 of a loop, followed by a substantial straight-line vertical dive - not quite your classic "figure 9". I really felt "positive" that I was sustaining my "down" handle input; however, since I have done this with three different planes, I have to believe that it is something *I'M* doing wrong. A couple club mates attribute these mishaps to "brain fade" and/or not having a "plan". While these guys are most helpful, I really don't buy the explanations; I fully intended to attempt these loops and was not confused about what I was trying to do during the maneuvers. As far as I know, no one besides me has actually seen the maneuvers leading to any of these crashes. They usually hear the familiar sound and see the result. (Maybe they'll name it after me?).

The other thing that really confuses me is that these planes were trimmed well enough for me to accomplish a few ugly vertical eights, which do include outside loops at high altitude. So it doesn't "seem" to be a matter of line tension (though not great overhead) or stalling anything. I'd like to find out why I'm crashing whenever I get the vertical descent lower on the hemisphere.

I hope this post doesn't divert the thread, but it seemed the place to get some input. I gotta stop DOING this!

Serge

Edit: I forgot to mention that I have been unable to verify stab incidence, but the plane was "donated" to me by a world class builder/flier.

Well, Randy, I promised to chip in if things slowed down so...

Only one thing to emphasize...maybe two...about the round loops.

First of all, Brett's point can't be overemphasized. The entry to all round maneuvers must be "aggressive". This is a difficult sense to convey with the written word. I don't mean a "jerk" or jump, but it must be a very obvious departure from level flight.

The loop begins as soon as you leave level flight and, to be round as described and demanded by the rule book, each loop must be "round". Round means a constant radius of change for the entire 360 degrees. If you make a gradual entry to a loop, slowly decreasing the radius to appear "smooth" you're going to appear "wrong".

Only practice will provide you with the proper feel for the correct entry that will result in proper sized loops...which brings up the second thing.

The proper sized maneuvers are a constant throughout the pattern and the wise pilot will find a way to determine that he is, in fact, flying rule book sized maneuvers...or, at the very least...consistenly sized maneuvers. The latter being less than optimum but way better than properly sized rounds coupled with seriously larger "tough" maneuvers or, even worse, a variety of sizes for all 15 maneuvers (tough to do with the takeoff and landing but I don't doubt that some deviation has occurred over the years).

Once again, Brett beat me to this but I am serious when I suggest that a baseball type hat should be as necessary a part of your tool kit as the prop wrench.

A cap with a brim worn consistently the same way (happens automatically because it won't feel right if you change the way you wear it...think of putting your underwear on backwards!) will provide you with a consistent means of assessing the size of your maneuvers even without a back ground. I know for instance if I find myself raising my head to see the tops of maneuvers that I'm starting to get a little large. If the tops don't touch the brim at the top I'm squeezing 'em down a bit too much.

The last thought deals with how to make the loops easy. As with most things in flying, airplane trim is the secret. The following assumes a straight airplane with no roll or yaw issues...a very big subject for another day...or year or two.

With the longitudinal Center of Gravity properly located loops of the right size can be properly entered and then will continue to track around the desired path almost without attention. Look for the following and make appropriate adjustments.

If you find each loop trying to come out higher than it began it is likely the CG is a little too far aft...or the handle spacing might be a little too great. Check the glide after the engine quits. If the ship glides positively and you can whip it to land where you want the CG is likely not too far aft and you can simply narrow the line spacing a tweak at a time. If the glide gets light on the lines and you're concerned about losing tension coming back into the wind the CG is probably too far aft and adding a bit of nose weight or removing tail weight will both cure the glide problem and get the loops tracking better.

If the loops need more control coming down hill to avoid coming out too low the reverse situations could exist. Move the CG aft a tiny bit at a time to fix the problem.

I've gotta run. I'll come back later today and give some thoughts regarding square loops.

Ted is very correct on the entry of the loop. It must look like a very distinct change in direction. I see alot of people ease into the first one and that presents a very large out of round first loop. Then loops 2 and 3 are different in size and you are looking at a 29 for that maneuver.

I have said this before but try to see the whole loop. Of course you stare right at the plane but if you can use your peripheral vision to see the whole loop flat spots or walking will become very apparent.

Also on loops you see alot of people fly from 5 to 45 and back to 5. This creates a very egged out looking loop. These guys are really trying to nail it in at 5' but missing the shape of their maneuver. I try my hardest to see the whole loop the entire time. This helps me to keep from flattening out trying to get the perfect 5' bottom. I would rather it be at 6' and round then 5' with these little pauses at the bottom telling the judges I am lloking for 5' not mention causing eggs in my loops. Once it is tracking perfectly round you hang in there and keep it round.

In order for the loop to be round it must have a consistant amount of imput. There is alot of inputs all the time to keep the plane turning consistantly. There is never a relaxed portion of the loop. If you let up for even a split second then there will be a lfat spot. Now I am NOT saying just hold the handle in one spot and it will be round. But I am saying be ready to really be giving the plane alot of really subtle inputs to keep it tracking round.

Being able to see the manuever is huge. See the whole maneuver. I constantly look at the whole thing and always tell myself to "Keep the tail moving" It is just a phrase I use while flying rounds this way I dont relax and flatten out. I also talk out loud while flying. It really keeps my mind on the task at hand. Unless I am really comfortable I might start singing a song by Linkin Park or something like that....

I also wear a hat and the brim is great for top consistancy. I dont rely on it totaly but it really does help alot! It also helps cut down on the sunburn scalp of my balding head...

On squares. Again with the whole seeing it thing. For along time I tried counting my corners 1-2-3-4 and my squares stunk and I mean really stunk it up. For me that never worked. I always had really bad angles. Once I began to see the square as the whole thing and not just 4 corners it became very easy. Hat Brim works good on squares also. Remember this is not 4 corners. This is a square. A square has 4 straight legs. Straight legs with medium corners will always win over blistering corners with wrong angles. Shape is King in our game. Fly the whole maneuver. Fly the legs straight. That is the number one thing. No climbing tops or shallow down legs. Straight up and straight down is the name of the game.

Things I think about in the square. I think before the maneuver "Straight up" Then before I turn it down I think "Straight down" When you learn to see the whole maneuver you will see if it is a rectangle or a climbing top or how your rythm is off. Counting corners wont be needed at that point. Also if you feel you have a good handle on the squares you are doing the same thing every time have someone watch you fly them. Even an untrained eye can see wrong angles it if they stand in the right spot. If they see climbing tops or crooked legs dont argue the point go and fly the very same thing again and see if you can see what they are talking about. Sometimes it is a very huge eyeopener. You think you are seeing it correctly and you probably are but it is something you are not looking for. Like I used to be really on myself about striaght up and straight across the top then I would move onto the bottom. Well guess what my down leg stunk it up for about a year until someone said "Hey fly your down leg straight down" I thought I always did and when I watched for it I knew right what he was saying. I was turning it shallow, a very common mistake, not quite straight down but out a little bit. Took only one flight to cure that. Now I look for it every time.

Dont worry about the conrer so much it will take care of itself. Just worry about seeing four equal sidesat 90 degrees to each other. This is a square so look at the whole thing and fly the whole maneuver.

Hope some of this helps.

>Dont worry about the conrer so much it will take care of
>itself. Just worry about seeing four equal sidesat 90
>degrees to each other. This is a square so look at the
>whole thing and fly the whole maneuver.

Amen, brother. Corners are only the points where the legs meet. They are not entities unto themselves.

Straight up, straight across, straight down, straight across. That's a square. Everything else is secondary.

A freind of mine has the very same thing happen to him. I have flown his planes and they fly fine. Then he fliys them and they are totaled on the outside loops. 4 or 5 times he has done this. On many different planes. I attribute it to lock up of the brain. But what it could be is just a bit of relaxation during the down portion and pow it is in. Keep after the down input and finish your loops high. Better yet start you loops at 45 degrees from inverted fight and see where the bottom ends up. If it is way low then you are fading on your input. Or you could have your handle in such a configuration that outside input is very sluggish or limited.

Hope this helps.

I use to have problems with crashing on the outside loops. In my case it was due to my habit of freezing my hand up high. That is I would follow the loop with my arm, but it was darn hard to convince myself to follow through on the down part--it seemed like I was draggin the plane down to its doom! Finally I forced myself to continue my arm movement all the way around--and guess what, no more crashes.

Here's how I did it-began a shallow wingover. Just as the plane was directly in front of me and quite high, gave it full down and just forced myself to keep holding full down and waited for it to go all the 'way around and then flew it out level at the completion. It's ugly because the plane will 'stall' around the loop, but it WILL make it around. Keep it straight downwind of you. After a few of these, you will begin developing muscle memory and giving it "Down " to go all the way around will become natural. As you gain confidence you will feel as though you are "carving" the loop with down pressure rather than just mechanically yanking down. Worked for me - your results may vary. I guess all the manuevers are just a matter of two inputs, up or down. It is just how long and it what sequence we apply them. I hope you don't break anymore plane getting through this hurdle, but no matter how many you do, Bob Brookins has done more!

Serge,

What everyone has said about hand position and following the model on outside loops is exactly what I experience learning the outside portions of the horizontal and vertical eights. I would follow the inside loop with my arm which worked fine because as the model climbed and you raise your arm you have up control from your wrist movement plus the up movement of the arm. In the outside part of the eight you have down control in the wrist and up control in the arm as you follow the loop around. Net result the outside seems to turn slower.

What I have adjusted to do is to rotate my hand 90 degrees clockwise ( right handed flying counter clockwise ) as I come into the intersection of the eight. This places my hand horizontal as I use my wrist to put in the down control. Now as I raise my arm to follow the model the arm motion does not add up control to the model. Its controled entirely by the down wrist control.

Now I fly the maneuver as I picture the shape and totally unaware of the wrist/arm..... just drawing on the sky...... everything flows into the next. Sorry about the poetry; but yesterday was Stunt Heaven: Light breeze, high clouds covering the sun, perfect engine runs, every flight 6:45 to 6:48, engine starts on first flip, 4 foot bottoms, smooth recoveries, good shapes and intersections. Too bad it wasn't for a score.