I'm MAD as All get out

I've been flying for many years and NEVER fried an engine untill today. My NEW McCoy 40 by Tom Lay went south. WHY??? I got some bad fuel. I had very good runs before I started this new gallon. On SAT (with the new gallon) I had problems getting the engine to 4 cycle. It always went lean. I thought it was the tank. Got home and re-plumbed the tank, new tubing and filter. TODAY went out and first run rich on the ground got in the air went lean and then went on the top. Engine ran lean for about three mins before it stopped. The red head is now black and the piston won't go to the top. SO I changed engine and put in a stock McCoy 35. Engine went lean but didn't go over the top. I got home pulled out my last gallon of fule (differant brand) went back out to the field and WOW Perfect. WHY is it that the one thing we flyer need is good fuel, and there's always a bad batch floating around. The fuel was Powermaster GMA 5-29. I've been useing it all summer with no problems then ...$120 engine gone. I'll lose some sleep but I will NOT buy GMA fuel anymore. SIG 10-25 is what I'll buy from now on.

Scott(just blowing steam)Riesex(

I don't mean to sound trite, Scott, but that is the very reason why it's best to buy the components in bulk and mix your own as you need it .. OR buy from someone who does that .. rather than buying commercial pre-mixed stuff that has been sitting around who knows where for who knows how long.

Just out of curiosity take 4 capfulls of the bad fuel and put it a tin can or something and burn off all the alcohol and see how much oil is left over.

>Just out of curiosity take 4 capfulls of the bad fuel and
>put it a tin can or something and burn off all the alcohol
>and see how much oil is left over.

I will do it the morning. Thanks

>I don't mean to sound trite, Scott, but that is the very
>reason why it's best to buy the components in bulk and mix
>your own as you need it .. OR buy from someone who does that
>.. rather than buying commercial pre-mixed stuff that has
>been sitting around who knows where for who knows how long.

KEN That's a good point. I've been very happy with SIG fuel. I think another post is in order. WHO is mixing fuel these day's and is for sale?

Scott

No Fox
No Red Max
Please

Scott,
Diesel fuel---

I mix my own. It isn't difficult. John Deere starting fluid is 80% tech ether, and sells in 7 ounce (mass, not volume) spray cans. That is about 10 fl oz (volume, not mass) per can, of which 8 fl oz is ether. Eric Clutton's Dr Diesel Diary mentions a way to vent off spray can propellant and pour the liquid out safely...

Good grade kerosene, e.g., camping stove crystal clear type should be available.

Castor, SIG AA is good.

Working with volumes, 8 fl oz ether is 25% of a quart; 8 fl oz castor is 25%, use the other 50% for kerosene. If your diesels will start and run on 25% ether content, this is a good fuel.

Clutton also sells an ignition improver, and one to three % is all you'd need, if you need any. (Less in warm weather. NEVER over 3%, though.)

A little arithmetic finds the proportions for, say, a 30% ether fuel. E.g., that's 9.6 fl oz per quart. Reduce the kerosene by 1.6 fl oz for a plain bearing engine, or some combination of the oil and the kerosene for BB engines.

Store fuel SEALED, preferably in metal screw cap containers. Mix only enough to get you through the flying you know you'll do. SEAL any excess ether drawn off.

Proportions are not precision critical -- you can use a juice type nylon pitcher to mix in. (I wouldn't use that pitcher for juice, afterwards, tho.) Most are graduated in fl oz and cc. The metric scale makes percentage figuring easier, and most quart cans will fit the slight excess volume in a liter.

And remember, silicone fuel line is useless with diesel or gasoline fuels.

Luck!

Diesel fuel.

LOU.
I get a bad rash if anyone is useing Diesel at the field.
Diesel yuk.
However, I've seen some neat planes that are diesel like the
"Bi-stink",the "Gradorpact", the "Deerwing", and the "Cummings Plus". ALL good flyers.
Remember the "Detroiter" & "Firecat" ....gee thats a real one!

Scott(had to do it) Riese

Sorry to hear about your engine. If it ran lean with the same needle setting the fuel might have too much nitro in it. Maybe the fuel was mislabled.

It's stories like this that make me mix my own fuel. It's a bit of a hassle sometimes but, I know what's in it.

Giffy

I would send the engine back to Tom Lay, get a statement from him, and send a copy of his report and the receipt for the engine to Powermaster. Let us know what they say. I've been happy with their product & sorry to hear about this. See ya Saturday. Steve

What a bummer, Scott!

Was the fuel all synth, or did it have some castor?

I had some mean, lean runs when trying to whip my OS.32F into shape, but the 40% castor/60% synth saved it.

The engine would runnaway, get hot, speed more, a vicioius circle...

Since castor polymerizes and becomes "thickerer" when things get hot my 32 ended up wih a dirty piston (fulla coal), but intact.

Moral: When dealing with an engine you don't know too well, ADD CASTOR, even if the oil contents goes to 25/26%.
Just don't let it go so high that you break a pusrod.
God bless you!

In Christ,

Ion

"The rings go but the fingers remain"

I had a similar ocurrence with PowerMaster but fortunately didn't smoke the engine. I had a case and had used the first 2 gallons. On the third gallon I stated getting really inconsistant runs an hard charging in all maneuvers. After all the regular tuning stuff and tank adjustment nothing improved. I returned everything to where I'd started and still had the dregs of the prior jug of fuel so I tried that, magic, everything got good again. The forth gallon was fine, so one in a case was bad.

We need to identify what was wrong with the fuel........too little oil, too much nitro? It wasn't just "bad" fuel. There was a specific reason it performed badly and I don't think it was from sitting around for a long time. I have some 10% nitro/29% castor Taffinder fuel that is 7 or 8 years old and still runs fine (shows how often I fly). When you average 4 - 6 flights (.35 size planes) per season, a case of fuel will go a long way...........TD

There is one factor involved in storing methanol that is often overlooked - it absorbs moisture from the atmosphere better than blotting paper soaks up ink!

While metal cans are the best storage medium from a safety point of view, they are also the worst for moisture, particularly when partly used. The moisture in the air space condenses, and the methanol absorbs it. This will also happen if not completely sealed airtight!

This can also happen with plastic bottles but to a lesser extent.

Any industrial chemist will tell you that, to a point, a little water aids the combustion of methanol - it separates into H and O. But "little" is the word, as when excessive it causes the oil blend to break apart under pressure - hence reduced lubrication. The big end and crankshaft may be ok, but the piston/liner surfaces can effectively be quite dry.

Solution? .. NEVER store containers on a concrete floor. Shuffle quantities between containers to keep them full. Avoid metal containers if at all possible. Never leave them in the trunk of your car - condensation just loves it.

Try for a location of stable temperature - the wife may grizzle at the suggestion of the bottom of the hall closet, but it's one of the best. A full container is no more "dangerous" than a bottle of methylated spirit or the wife's nail polish remover.

There are still many other possible causes of your problem, Scott - but this is more likely than most people think. My knowledge and understanding of this arose from the days (the 60's, so ok I'm ancient) when our only source (in Aussieland) of Nitro Methane was Duke Fox's "Blast" - either 40 or 50%. Unfortunately, by the time the small cans got to the user, many were totally ruined with moisture in the methanol, and sometimes even rust particles inside. Rust means condensation of moisture inside the can.

Hope this helps!

Send an email to Powermaster with the Batch number off the label. They can tell you what type of fuel it is, when it was made, who it was shipped to and if they have had any other complaints about that batch.

They will also refund your money no questions asked. Be sure to give them the batch number and when you bought it. They are a good company and provide a good product. Every fuel manufacturer has a trouble from time to time. I even had a bad gallon of sig once. But I still use it exclusively. Even those who mix their own are bound to run into troubles from time to time. It is the nature of the contents. I bet you can easily salvage your motor and I bet Powermaster would be very interested in all of your troubles. Who knows they may even help you out on the cost.

Have you called them yet?

I had a similar incident a few years back with my ST-46. Ran out of the fuel I was using and opened a new gallon of the same brand. Immediately the engine started overheating and going lean. I fortunately noticed that there was no oil collecting on the ship and in the past, I had to wipe a lot of oil off after each flight. I added eight ounces to the gallon and the engine run got better, but still no (or very little) oil on the plane. I wound up adding a total of 18oz of oil to the fuel before things started to run right.
It wasn't power Master, but another top brand. I still use their product, and have never ran into the problem since.
Bigiron

Is there a way to test for Castor content prior to running it through a good engine? The 4-capful idea mentioned above sounds like a start.

Elwin has it right... Do the burn down test to see how much oil is in the fuel. I will bet you find very little if any.

If you put 4 cap full's of fuel in a metal container and light it, when the fire goes out you should have close to one cap full of oil left. This is for 25% oil, 22% would be close.

One of our club members smoked a 4 stroke running fuel with no oil. It wasn't PowerMaster or Fox and can happen with any fuel supplier.

Compare the color and if it is different from one gallon to the next, do the burn down test before running it in your engine.

>Compare the color and if it is different from one gallon to
>the next, do the burn down test before running it in your
>engine.

Since PM currently comes in opaque metal cans, this is a pain to do.

>Since PM currently comes in opaque metal cans, this is a
>pain to do.

Ya I understand, I really dislike the PowerMaster cans with that plastic lid thing but it is the only brand around here with reasionable price and availability.

>>Since PM currently comes in opaque metal cans, this is a
>>pain to do.
>
>Ya I understand, I really dislike the PowerMaster cans with
>that plastic lid thing but it is the only brand around here
>with reasionable price and availability.

Well, I had no reason for concern before, but I'm in the same boat. I got the LHC to stock PM, and they won't stock SIG. I was of the belief that PM was a very good brand, so no problem. This serves as a real cautionary tale. Best to flame off a few capfuls of every new can, and immediately cease using any new fuel that doesn't run properly. Scary stuff...

I wouldn't lose any sleep worrying about the PowerMaster fuel. This same thing has happened with all the major fuel suppliers and one smaller operation I know of.

Being aware it can happen and using caution is the best insurance. I would be willing to bet the major fuel suppliers would make good on any engine that may get toasted by bad fuel.

Scott I had a similar but not as bad experience with a new can of GMA. My engine kept running leaner and leaner. I pulled the engine after I had tried everything else except changing fuel. Now I will try the burn test on that can of fuel. I like the part where you pressurized the can and found an air leak. I would have blamed the gasket, not holes!! Good job Sherlock. This no doubt will save a bunch of us from various frustraations of not knowing why a known good engine suddenly starts to go sour. First thing, change to a fuel you know works.

Actually, the Powermaster cans are the only fuel marketed that I am aware that is fully compliant with all Federal, State and local fire laws....a big issue to those that actually bother with insurance.

See Ya

Suggestion:
When everything is working well, buy spare fuel .
Run at least 4 tankfuls of each gallon;sometimes it takes a couple of runs for low oil to show up.If it rus same R.P.M/
and length per tank, careully seal it mark it and save it.Go to next
batch, repeat process.This Works

You can boil ofF fuel I believe using a double boiler, and measure
the left volume of oil. Weight won,t get it.

Burning fuel off reminds me off a mechanic I new that put out his
cigaretts in a gallon pan of gas.Itnever went off....
Had another friend that covered his body with rubbing alcahol
for athrithus,(so I can,t spell) then decided to have a seegar!
He survived the third degee burns on both legs; he was 80.

Guys , you can,t be too carefull, We need all of you

Back in the late 60's while I was in College,I bought a quart of SIG 5% Sport Fuel from my LHS, filled up the tank and started the well used Torp Greenhead 35 and took off. The motor started running slower and slower and finally landed with the motor still running and smoke pouring off the engine. I threw a rag in the prop and stopped the engine. After the Torp cooled to where I could touch it, I found the engine was locked up, the shaft had actually welded itself to the main bearing (early model with sintered iron main bearing). After I took it apart, the crankshaft actually had small blobs of main bearing welded to it. The case was ruined, and the P & L no longer had usable compression. Thats the last SIG fuel I will ever buy.