Planning stages for an All-American Seni...

Okay, I'm doing my pre-building thinking and figuring at this point, and looking to gather some good information and free advice. I just got the kit yesterday, and am thrilled with it so far (see my review in the Product Reviews forum, which will grow as I build the model).

Anyway, having perused the plans, and thought about it some, I'm planning to build the plane exactly as shown on the plans, including leadout placement and no tip weight. My reasoning is that this will give me a true vintage experience, and I'm thinking that the original flew well enough to get kitted, so building one "just" like it can't be too far wrong. Sure, it won't have some modern conveniences that we've all come to believe are essential, but I'm willing to wait and see what the actual performance is. I'm also thinking that building one of these (specifically the Walter Umland kit) exactly as shown in the plan might provide some good information. OTOH, I've heard from some quarters that this plane may have a tendency to come in on takeoff - I've been advised to offset the landing gear slightly to overcome this issue.

So my question is, if I skip the tip weight and leadout slider, am I likely to wish I hadn't? Keep in mind I'm just a sport flier at present, with only a few tricks up my sleeve - nowhere near doing even the OTS pattern (which really doesn't look too different from the modern one - excuse my ignorance), so at my level I'm not likely to notice subtle differences in flight characteristics - just gross ones.

I'm hoping someone here has built this plane both ways, and has specific suggestions on this topic...

Thanks,

The tip weight is an absolute must. I would recommend the slider also.

>The tip weight is an absolute must. I would recommend the
>slider also.

For Tim: Tip Weight is not a must...and The AA Senior flies superbly without it...IF..and Only If you fly Clockwise or use a Left-Hand
crank engine. Fox has them for the Stunt .35...You don't need the LE slider either but it's probably easy enough for you to install, if
you chose not to install the leadout adjuster then just move your
leadouts closer together, keeping the same center point...Oh, one
more thought... these old birds were not intended to be flown with a
4-2-4 break....

Tony (cheep free advise)

Maybe Ed Ruane can jump in here to give you suggestions on the Sr. Ed built one this year and I have seen it fly all summer, it flies great. Ed's has a Fox 35 and it has power to spare.

Watching Ed's fly made me buy one of Umlands kits asap.

Also, another club flier has a Sr that also performs well. Tim are you going to post construction photos on your webpage?

I have a Golden State AASr with Fox 35 on .015 x 60'lines. Flew it originally with 1/2oz wing tip weight, stock leadout positions and zero offsets. First time out I knew the leadouts were too forward and not enough tip weight...it came in on takeoff (I ran like hexx)and it was tedious (kept running)to fly with this setup. I added another 1/4oz to the tip and it helped but not enough to stabilize it totally. Then I added engine offset and that didn't help a lot. Then came massive rudder offset. I didn't fly it in windy weather because of the problems. Bottom line now is I finally made the leads adjustable. I haven't flown it with the adjustables yet but figure the offsets will have to be undone now.

There is no way I'd fly without tip weight or adjustable leads unless I built a few and could dial it in that way. A Fox 35 is tons of power for this ship too.

>>There is no way I'd fly without tip weight or adjustable
>leads unless I built a few and could dial it in that way. A
>Fox 35 is tons of power for this ship too.
>
>Bill P.

Bill, please refer to my prior post, concerning clockwise flight and left-hand cranks...
You're right about no-way(Jose) tip weight
for counter-clockwise direction. I had an AA Senior in 1956 that I
used for combat flying; hand launches were always hilarious..even
with gobs of tip weight...Tony

There is one way to look at it. It is not a lot of work to add the tip weight box and adjustable leadout guide when you build it. If you put it together and hit everything perfect (just the perfect amount of tip weight, just the perfect leadout location), well, you will be happy with the airplane. If you find you need to adjust something but can't--without cutting in, that is--you not only will not be happy, but you won't even know which way to adjust or how much if you do cut into it.

It is probably more essential for a novice to get the trim correct than it is for a more experienced modeler who can work around some of the problems.

Do it, and you won't regret it later.

Thanks guys - I appreciate your saving me from myself. This kit is, after all, geared to the more experienced modeler; in the absence of experience, I depend on that which I can tap into here. I was, of course, forgetting about the counter-clockwise thing. I also asked Catdaddy, who told me that he basically copied the original plan when doing the CAD version, so I presume that included the note about no tip weight or offsets.

I will definitely build it with tip weight and adjustable leadouts, so I can get it trimmed correctly for counter-clockwise flight.

Don't go away - I'll have more questions as I get into it...

Additionally, mine has a plank horizontal stab with built up elevator. If memory serves right it needed 1/2oz in the tail to balance the cg with the unmuffed Fox 35. I also drilled the maple motor mounts to lighten the nose. The motor caught fire twice from fuel collecting under the motor by flooding. Its the only plane that ever did this to me. I originally put a 1/4" dia hole for draining the engine compartment but it wasn't big enough. Now the hole is about 3/4" dia and no problems. It runs well on a 3.5oz Smith uniflow tank. I fly it with a Master Airscrew 9.5 x6 nylon to keep the speed up (the "come in at ya" thing again)...it flys fast with this prop and a lean 4 stroke.

I built one of the first of the Umland kits. In fact the picture on the box is of mine in the painting stages. It now hangs in a garage in Phoenix waiting for me and the next VSC in Tucson.
PUT in the weight box and the lead outs sliders. A Fox .35 is plenty of power. I used very little rudder off set and about 2 degress engine off set. Mine flies fine and never once has it come in at me. Make sure where the wind is during launch, namely off its port quarter or from the left rear of the plane. This will help keep it out on the lines until it is airborne.
It is a great kit and everything fits the first time. Just build it straight, square and true like a white knight.

My All American does not have tip weight and the leadouts are in the stock position. With over 150 flights, mostly flying the modern pattern, I have not seen a need for tip weight.
Chris Brainard

Hey bud...Do it the way you want. I built mine without tipweight and after 20 or so flights Yes I added tip weight. Lead outs keep them as the plains. Plane fly's super. I have over 600 flights on mine and I just recovered it and LOST 6oz in weight.

Nice looking plane, Scott!

Nice looking plane. I hope mines comes out that good. What did you use for covering? How did you shave off 6oz? Thanks
Jay

Scott,
Nice looking stars and strips, how did you do them?

Tim,
I'll attach some pics showing the various control points for leadouts. They are off my Golden State plans..I don't know if they are in the same location as other kits and this could make a difference. Notice the CG is on the front lead.
Bill P.

>Scott,
>Nice looking stars and strips, how did you do them?
>
>
>Tim,
>I'll attach some pics showing the various control points for
>leadouts. They are off my Golden State plans..I don't know
>if they are in the same location as other kits and this
>could make a difference. Notice the CG is on the front
>lead.
>Bill P.

Hi Bill, Those Golden State plans look just like my Demeco
plans. I got my plans from Fran P.....sorry I can't spell his last
name. Anyway the're original De Bolt kit plans. The model builds very light;
actually...26-28 ozs was common with a Fox .35 using
good wood. My model built from those plans(using good wood) weighs
23.5ozs, powered with a left-hand crank PAW .19BB diesel, ready to
fly, without fuel. Tony

>>Scott,
>>Nice looking stars and strips, how did you do them?
>>
>>
>>Tim,
>>I'll attach some pics showing the various control points for
>>leadouts. They are off my Golden State plans..I don't know
>>if they are in the same location as other kits and this
>>could make a difference. Notice the CG is on the front
>>lead.
>>Bill P.
>
>Hi Bill, Those Golden State plans look just like my Demeco
>plans. I got my plans from Fran P.....sorry I can't spell
>his last
>name. Anyway the're original De Bolt kit plans. The model
>builds very light;
> actually...26-28 ozs was common with a Fox .35 using
>good wood. My model built from those plans(using good wood)
>weighs
>23.5ozs, powered with a left-hand crank PAW .19BB diesel,
>ready to
>fly, without fuel. Tony
>
>

I own the masters and have an original kit and can verify that the Golden State plans are for the most part the same as the Dmeco plans

I had the GSM plans redrawn by Catdaddy and slightly altered by another Cad draftsmen
(for the most part)they only have been updated to have a slightly wider fuse to accept a wider tank
and show it counterclockwise on the plans so no one gets confussed while building

I also sent a kit to Fran to inspect and also show to Hal DeBolt and received back a very nice and pleasant letter about the entire kit updates and all.

Thanks, Walter.. I was planning to say pretty much the same thing, but you beat me to it (I can't post from work). Aside from the question I posted about (which I should have been able to figure out for myself), I shouldn't have too many questions - I think this plane will pretty much build itself. Fantastic kit!

Well, the test fight with the AASr's new adjustable leads went well today until the controls locked up. I must have messed something up when putting the new adjustables in. It's been a long time since I put one in this hard. It was a lot better flyer with the leads aft too. Anyway, now I have a good excuse to build another plane.

Speaking of tanks...here's a pic of how a 1-3/4" wide tank just squeezes into the original design. I think the new 2" wide compartment is a nice touch.

Awww, man! That's rough. I feel for you...