Zilch X

Going to start an Umland Zilch X and have a power question. Can you give me some opinions on using a Brodak 40 for the model? Is it over kill??

The only one I have seen fly was Ed Ruane's and he had a Rustler 40 and it flew terrific, made me purchase the kit matter of fact. I have the Brodak justing waiting for a plane and I'm dying to use it.

Thanks in advance for your help.

I have a hard time seeing the Brodak 40 as "overkill" for any of the early 35 powered airplanes. It is light, smooth, and runs really well on a 10" dia prop. What more could you ask? It is not really an old time or classic engine, but IMHO a great choice for power.
Steve

I am trying to fly my Super Duper Ziltch. I have a Lew Woolard Fox 40 on mines. It flew great on Friday, but on Sunday I developed pushrod problems.

I figured the Brodak would work out, it seems to fit in the plane with no problems. Ed Ruanes Zilch with the Merco/Rustler flew great and I think that engine weighs around 9 oz with the muffler. I figure the Merco has a few more ponies, but I should be in the same neighborhood.

The Brodak is a fine running engine, can't wait to bolt it on and fly it.

>I figured the Brodak would work out, it seems to fit in the
>plane with no problems. Ed Ruanes Zilch with the
>Merco/Rustler flew great and I think that engine weighs
>around 9 oz with the muffler. I figure the Merco has a few
>more ponies, but I should be in the same neighborhood.
>
>The Brodak is a fine running engine, can't wait to bolt it
>on and fly it.

The Zilch is thin winged and doesn't require a huge amount of power to drag it around. The Brodak .40 should be more than enough.

The Zilch X has a thick wing wing almost 2". It builds very light and a Fox 35 would pull it with no trouble. I had a ST/35 in mine for a long time and put the Rustler 40 in it for motor testing. I even had a DS/50 in it but that was overkill. The ST and the Rustler are almost the same mounting pattern.The rustler is wide across the mounts.It will not fit in Fox 35 mounts.I believe the picture on the Walter Umland kit is my plane unless he has changed it.Ed

Yep, I just measured the rib and it's 1-15/16". Very thick and blunt leading edge and alot of wing area. That being said, not much structure to build. It should be very light which was the intent of the designer to begin with.

Ed- a picture of your plane is on the box.

As someone who has been flying a Zilch X for a couple years and even scored a (lucky and very close) OTS win with it at the 2003 NW Regionals, I think the ideal powerplant would be most anything in one's shop which is regarded as too heavy and too weak for most any other 35- to 40-size model.

While I am using a GMA-prepped ABC Fox 35, and am quite unlikely to change engines now, the Fox has lots of power for this fairly light model. And the model has a whole bunch of lead in the nose.

Like a lot of similar OTS models, wing loading is not much of an issue. Nor is turning ability as the pattern is mostly round maneuvers; and if one needs to bang it for climb-and-dive or the huge square at the end, just crank in more elevator.

But line tension can be an issue, especially for those of us who have grown accustomed to pleasing pull from Classic models and "Awright!" pull from PA models. Shoving the balance point forward nicely increases tension all over, giving one confidence that ol' crock will actually stay at the end of the lines.

(Thanks to Mr. Bob Whitely for the tip, even if it had to go from AlfaDawg to Jerry Silver, then to Mike Keville, finally to Da Dirt.)

So. Were I to have a clapped-out O.S. 40FP laying around, that's an engine I would consider, as an example. The chosen engine would need only to start reliably, needle in a predictable manner. And be a substantially heavier than a Fox 35.

Dan Rutherford

>As someone who has been flying a Zilch X for a couple years
>and even scored a (lucky and very close) OTS win with it at
>the 2003 NW Regionals, I think the ideal powerplant would be
>most anything in one's shop which is regarded as too heavy
>and too weak for most any other 35- to 40-size model.
>

>
>(Thanks to Mr. Bob Whitely for the tip, even if it had to go
>from AlfaDawg to Jerry Silver, then to Mike Keville,
>finally to Da Dirt.)
>
>
>Dan Rutherford
>
>
>
>

Hey Dan I think I have seen a picture of your Zilch X somewhere
but I am not really sure

How about a picture for my website I'll put it on my Zilch X page? ....Please

and for Ed
yes I have had a picture of your yellow one for a year now and have just rotated to Jerry Silvers for this new run. thank you

>Yep, I just measured the rib and it's 1-15/16". Very thick
>and blunt leading edge and alot of wing area. That being
>said, not much structure to build. It should be very light
>which was the intent of the designer to begin with.
>
>Ed- a picture of your plane is on the box.

You guys think that is thick?
Good grief, The Super Chief had an airfoil thicker than that and it flew on a McCoy .19.

If you want more line tension you just do as GMA told me: if you are righthanded"fly clockwise".

Walter,

My Zilch X is an elusive critter, although it got a bit of play in Bruce (Heavy Stunt) Hunt's video of the 2003 NW Regionals. The model appears immediately prior to giving Bob Smiley all sorts of grief about his Piper Cub and its non-existent relationship to Randy's PA model.

Shortly thereafter I regale one and all at the OTS score board with David Fitzgerald's comment after Mike Conner and I squashed him like a bug: "Give you a lot of satisfaction to beat a Ringmaster?"

The answer, by the way, was, "Well, yeah..."

Closer to home, you can see my Zilch X in the thread "Northwest Skyraider's Raider Roundup." Unfortunately, there appears to have been some sort of operator error involved here as the model doesn't come off in all its pristine glory, fabulous workmanship, radiant colors and graceful flying abilities.

I didn't take the picture, have no way of getting it to you. Sorry.

There is, however, a minor cool thing about this model in that the whole thing was done in plastic. Yep, it's a fair representation of the original model. But no paint. Unless one counts the wheel hubs. And a dab of flat black in cockpit floor. Which is actually the top of a bladder tube. But we don't want to revisit that feature...

>
>Closer to home, you can see my Zilch X in the thread
>"Northwest Skyraider's Raider Roundup."

>Dan Rutherford

Ok I found it thanks

dirtydan,

How are your leadouts positioned? Per plan or adjustable?

Circle Burner,

One of the things in which I have little faith is leadout positioning with these old models. So with those nice, fat tips I simply used the Impact-style of adjustable leadout guide.

Standard deal: Block of bass wood, series of holes drilled 1/4" apart, connected with the kerf of a narrow saw blade, in my case with a jig (scroll) saw. This is incorporated into the balsa block wing tip.

If you like, I can measure the model in order to furnish the current location of each leadout. For certain, they are much closer together than as designed. And, I'll bet, further forward than shown on the original plans.

.
these will be the new CAD plans for my Zilch X kits

Dan-If you wouldn't mine measuring that would be great. I finished the wing this weekend and installed an adjustable tip slider but it would be nice to have a staring point. I also installed a weight box to help trim the plane. The wing really turned out perfect, very pleased with the strength. Another nice kit from Umland.

Now on to the fuse and tail!!

Thanks for your help DirtyDan!!!

John,

Measured from the trailing edge, the leadouts on my Zilch X are at 7.5 and 8.25 inches. I suspect they could go forward some and the next time it is flown that is one of the things I will be trying.

You are welcome.

Now. All I want to know about the Zilch X and models like it is how to land one of the things without bouncing 85 times.

Use the old inflatable tires, with some of the air taken out. Or try a tailhook. That'll stop those pesky touch and goes.

Great-thanks Dan!

It funny you mentioned the landing, it is tough to get them smooth with some of the older designs. I just finished a RSM Ringmaster and I never bounced so many times on landing in my life. Not sure what the proper technique is.....but it sure is fun/funny trying to figure it out )

Circle Burner,

There are some tricks, although it is pretty obvious I don't know them all.

Cranking some toe-in into the wheels helps. Gotta fiddle with this one, but do not ever let the gear develop toe-out as can happen with repeated and hard landings.

Touching down faster than slower frequently helps.

As does holding your arm up as the model approaches the landing. It's an old trick, one I first learned in RC Pylon and with the early Quickee 500s, but the idea is to let first one wheel then the other touch down. In the case of CL it would be the outboard/RH wheel first. If not, you've got problems I don't even want to hear about.

Some of what are purported to be "low-bounce" wheel/tire sets seem to accentuate the problem. To the point where I am going to try some real hard tires, maybe the Williams Brothers "Vintage" style.

Of course, the real answer is to fly these sorts of models from a grass field and with very expensive props. Which is of course why the gear is so far forward in the first place. Unfortunately, I have never once flown OTS on anything other than a paved circle.

Okay, I did my bit. I am still waiting to hear from others how to land these old crocks w/o multiple bounces and with some consistency. Whitely, are you holding out on us again?