Book On Control Line History?

I recently checked on the PAMPA website and notice this product for sale, "Pioneers of Control Line Flying (Charles Mackey)." I don't own that book as of yet (And maybe after purchasing and reading the book my question here may have been answered)

What I was wondering if there are books on control line history, like how it started, who was involved, what company made what, important milestones and so on.
I would think that now would be the best time to publish something like that.
Considering that human beings age and when they pass away, gone are the experiences, enjoyment and memories of that individual. I've noticed the control line community to be close knitted, and that helps in preserving this history weather it be past, present or what the future might bring. Besides it would be enjoyable to read.

It's a very good book. Lots of info and Controversy. Don't let the latter change your mind. Get it and enjoy it.

Scott(good book)Riese

Thanks Scott for the mini review, I'll pick one up. Tony, I'll keep an eye out for those authors. Also like your "weekly" updated control line article website.

If you can get hold of a copy of Ron Moulton's Control line handbook that covers a lot of history.

Wynn Paul is currently compiling the stunt history bible...

The trouble with most of the existing histories is that they credit Jim Walker with inventing C/L as we know it and don't include the fact that he stole the idea and had to pay substantial damages to the real inventor.

>The trouble with most of the existing histories is that they
>credit Jim Walker with inventing C/L as we know it and don't
>include the fact that he stole the idea and had to pay
>substantial damages to the real inventor.

Hey, Dave, you say "we all know" this. Maybe not. As I recall Jim Walker had a patent on it, and, quite frankly, I never heard of him paying any damages to the "real inventor". So, what, in your opinion, is the real story?

The trouble with inventions is people can be working on things in various parts of the world (or in the next town) and not even be aware that someone else is working on the same thing. Hence, did the Wright Brothers make the first powered flight in an airplane? Some try to revise history with someone else doing it first. Did Edison invent the light bulp, the phonograph, the...? Some history revisionists will come up with someone else to dispute this. During the cold war I remember the leaders of the Soviet Union claiming they came up with most every invention credited to Americans first (kind of a one upmanship.)

Jim Walker did patent it, demonstrate it, and promote it. So, if you have information of someone else doing something first and or better, who was it? And if they did it first, did Jim Walker really "steal" it, or was he unaware of the other person's accomplishments and merely the first one to the patent office? What is the "real" story? Inquiring minds want to know.

Leonard and Dave, you both should read Mackey's book. The invention of CL, the patent fight, etc., is covered in great and exacting detail. Another excellent history book is Dave Thornberg's "Do you speak model airplane". I was able to find only a single error of fact in it. (The combat kit passed out by duke Fox at the '60 nats was not a flying wing, but a profile I-beamer.) Both books are well worth the money. The Thornberg book comes up on ebay from time to time.

Old timer-but new to this electronic STUFF!!!
You N.W. fellows, I'm a little surprized that you have not had Frank M. key up this discussion. I have seen what Frank has in storage in documents (dating clear back into the middle 1920's)and different "development" models from that time area of Mr. Walkers. I really prefer that Frank tell you folks some VERY interesting history about Mr. Walker & Mr Oba St. Clair.. L.Neuman--"the trouble with inventors is people can be working on things in various parts of the world (or in the next town )and not be aware that someone is working on the same thing." Mr Neuman--you are very right on this. I remember going from Roseburg,ore--Eugene, ore and finally to Portland, ore via "old" 99 highway in my uncle's Model T--it took ALL DAY !! Eugene and Portland--in those days were a longs ways apart. AND we did not have this ELECTRONIC STUFF (isn't it fun)--just snail mail and get on the phone and "Ring" up the operator with one twist of the handle and she would ask you who you wanted to talk to. Remeber Lily Thomason --"one ringy dingy, two ringy dingy"!!!
OK You want to try another subject--try figuring out WHO shot down Gen. Yamamoto--I've read books and gone and listened to the last remaining pilots and the discussions till rages on. WOW, did I date myself with this--enjoy.

Remeber Lily Thomason --"one ringy dingy, two ringy dingy"!!!

Lily Tomlin wasn't the only one. True story:

When I lived in Alfont, IN (between Indianapolis and Anderson) our number was two longs and one short. The whole community was on the same party line and some folks listened to everyone's conversation.

Paul, I have the book and highly recommend it. It tells the story of a guy in Oregon that tried control line flying, was met by Jim Walker, and the rest is interesting history.
Also in the 90's Flying Models magazine had a series on famous planes and their designers, both old time stunters and classics.
The only trouble here is it can become a hobby within a hobby, ask me how I know

>Paul, I have the book and highly recommend it. It tells the story of a guy in Oregon that tried control line flying, was met by Jim Walker, and the rest is interesting history...

Oba St. Clair flew "Miss Shirley" July 4, 1937...from the aforementioned excellent book.

Ahh, George, yah dun gave away the "killer". That's like saying, "Oh I read that book and the butler did it!"

At the Roundup--NW Skyraiders contest--Jim Johnson had galley proofs of his new book on CL models and associated memorabilia.

I have no idea of the release date, price, who to call, how to order, or the well-known etc.

In fact, I'm not sure why I'm posting on this thread as I don't have much at all to contribute. Except to note that Jim is one of our more colorful CL characters, one with a butt crack as huge as his good-natured heart.

Oh, and I met Oba several times. Even flew his CL trainer. I am convinced he was the very first to fly a CL model, even if Jim Walker was the first to see a commerical application for Oba's work product.

Controversy I think I said That. Jim Walker DID NOT STEAL IDEAS. He Promoted the "Captive toy airplane", and invented the "bell crank" as we know it. There’s more to this story (COX) then was ever let on. Alot of things are fuzzy (cats,dogs,Dirt Dan,) about the law suit. However, I enjoy the outcome from some neat people.
(SPELLING) Bob Smerthwaite did alot for Control Line flying also.

Scott(got to get a spell check soon........)Riese

Sorry Scott, but the "bellcrank" has been around long before, on boats, full size. He adapted it to models.
At any rate, the advertising of the 40's through the end of the law suit mention "use your favorite control system", or the Jim Walker control system. Interesting, but in the past.

>Sorry Scott, but the "bellcrank" has been around long
>before, on boats, full size. He adapted it to models.
>At any rate, the advertising of the 40's through the end of
>the law suit mention "use your favorite control system", or
>the Jim Walker control system. Interesting, but in the
>past.

I think this is kind of key to any "inventor". Were the Wright Brothers really the "inventors" of powered flight, or merely the first to do a powered flight? Hmmm? We do know they worked with control of the plane. They made their own engine. They made their own propellers adapted to their own theories. They adapted bicycle technology to the drive train. And they are credited in history as being the "pioneers". Still, there were others working independently and who soon followed. Those who followed used much of their own methodologies, but certain aspects would also be found in common.

For control line, it wasn't the powered model that was invented. It was the invention or development of a control system to a powered model using lines and flying around a pivot (the pilot). Whether someone did this before Jim Walker (probably) is not the question. There were electric lights before Edison. They just didn't work well or last for any useable length of time. They weren't practical. Edison had to try hundreds (or was it thousands) of different filaments in many different configurations before he came up with something practical. Thus he is credited with "inventing" the electric light bulb.

I have no quarrel with crediting Jim Walker with the "invention" of control line flying. He made it practical with his adaptation of the belcrank and saw the possibilities as he promoted it. It was Jim Walker's "system" that is the heart of what we still use today.

Powered flight??? The first??? The Wright Brothers???

If memory serves me correct they were not the first for powered flight but they are credited with being the first in "Controlled powered flight". I believe there was a Frenchman who was first in powered flight. These little tidbits get lost in the history.

>Sorry Scott, but the "bellcrank" has been around long
>before, on boats, full size. He adapted it to models.
>At any rate, the advertising of the 40's through the end of
>the law suit mention "use your favorite control system", or
>the Jim Walker control system. Interesting, but in the
>past.

Thanks for the update. I love this fourm.

Scott(thought I knew)Riese

Dan, My wife has been telling me that crack kills. I knew it would come back to haunt me, If you gave out your email or posted it in Stunt News we could stay in touch. My wife is always wanting to send you emails. Mostly nonsense. The book is going to print and I will start a new post and give all the details. Jim Johnson

>>Paul, I have the book and highly recommend it. It tells the story of a guy in Oregon that tried control line flying, was met by Jim Walker, and the rest is interesting history...
>
> Oba St. Clair flew "Miss Shirley" July 4, 1937...from the
>aforementioned excellent book.

At the 1986 Northwest Regionals in Eugene, Oregon, the Beginner Stunt trophies were underwritten by Oba St. Clair. His name was engraved on each trophy as the sponsor.

It was my very first Stunt contest and I won the Beginner Stunt trophy that day, the one and only time I ever entered Beginner. I’ve been very pleased over the years to have that trophy hanging on my wall bearing the name of CL’s earliest progenitor.

Jack

Well I have wondered for some time why Jim Walker's name never comes up on here. I thought maybe you were just too young. I understand more now that you folks have seen fit to try and spite him down.

Well I will tell you something right now. Jim Walker did more for CL flying than all of you folks' favorite people (we all know who they are) put together and multiplied by two.

The idea that he was a thief is goofball. There is more to any idea than just the basic mechanics of it. Jim Walker's idea was hardly just a matter of a bellcrank or lines guided at the end of the wing or any of the other points in the patent. Marketing and promoting effectively was really the key, and if you think CL flying would have caught on otherwise then you are just taking up a small time version of the "what if the Nazis had won the war" type arguments. There is no sure answer to such questions when the force in question is so pivotal to the events. But it is hard to believe that anybody else would have promoted CL so well!

I can say that Jim Walker was second to none and was also at the right place at the right time in terms of the peak in young peoples' interest in aviation at that time. His promotion of the hobby was always 100% positive, never getting into the think-too-much "make too much of toy airplanes" mentality which some of this board's apparent heroes possessed. He recognized this as a fun thing and a good way to make a buck, too. That is why I think he was a great fellow.

Now many successful businessmen have done a little idea borrowing and I can't rule that out completely here. On the other hand, every successful businessman has been accused of stealing somebody's idea or of getting to the top through various untoward means, whether it was true or not. After all, jealousy is a sick thing, that sometimes strikes people far removed from the person envied, often without the afflicted even recognizing their own weakness of character. So who can say?

Did you know that Jim was not his real name?

Model aviation could surely use another Jim Walker today. I would agree that there isn't now, and never has been, anyone to compare with him in promoting model aviation (not just CL). I also think it was a good thing for CL that he lost the patent lawsuit. However, I can see a counterargument to my point of view on the lawsuit.

I am glad to hear this discussion about our C/L heritage--Mr Walker--Mr Oba St. Clair. Remember also that in Northern Calif the "Mom and Pop Poppers" in the 1940's with the WAM. By the Way, Gary just told me that they have made contact with "Mom" and have sent a nice card to her. All across our great nation we have and still have very hard working people to promote our "Fun with C/l" How did VCS get started--a small contest that was just to be for local fun. In our "NW Regionals"--Mel Marcum and Morrie Gilbert and the "Propspinners" were the founding people that kept it alive and is now in its 33rd year and going very well with JT. ZZ and Craig at the reigns and really doing a very good job. I am very proud of these fellows.
Enjoy! Old timer, but new to this Electronic STUFF!!
Dave S

"..Did you know that Jim was not his real name? "

Floyd,

What is his real name?

You might find the book very interesting. Jim Walker is not put down in it. Everyone knows that people see things differently. It is very interesting to see how things unfolded.

According to an old book I have, circa 1943, his name was Nevilles E. Walker, which he changed to Jim to get a better ring to it for his sales. Could be wrong, I don't know. Nevilles was practically the same as Neville, a bad name to have at that time in the late 30's, after all! So a new name was needed.

I have copies of several old books which are out of print and someday I hope to scan some of the neat shots and post them somewhere. For example, I have a CL book from Great Britain during the War years which has so many neat pictures which I wish everybody could see. Some of the early planes which used oddball CL systems like Flight Command are pretty neat.

Where can this new book you are talking about be purchased? I am not a member of Pampa. Sounds like a nice book.

...Where can this new book you are talking about be purchased? I am not a member of Pampa. Sounds like a nice book.

Floyd,
The book can be purchased through PAMPA or AMA. The PAMPA site gives necessary information but you must mail or phone the order. The AMA has it on their WEBSTORE. You do not have to be a member of either to order it.
It it titled, "Pioneers Of Control Line Flying" by Charles Mackey.

I think you will enjoy it. As some would say, "It's a good read".

>...Where can this new book you are talking about be
>purchased? I am not a member of Pampa. Sounds like a nice
>book.
>
>
>Floyd,
> The book can be purchased through PAMPA or AMA. The PAMPA
>site gives necessary information but you must mail or phone
>the order. The AMA has it on their WEBSTORE. You do not have
>to be a member of either to order it.
> It it titled, "Pioneers Of Control Line Flying" by Charles
>Mackey.

Please, by all means, buy it from PAMPA products - we have 800 or so copies!

Floyd, I think you best re read the comments. No one is putting Mr. J. Walker down. I in fact met him when I was around 10 or 11 and he gave me and two of my buddies A FireBaby each. Two of us flew them literally to pieces and that plus my dads encouragement got me into model aviation. Plus his Hornet, 404 Interceptor and 74 Fighter among the many other planes his company put out.
Have you read the book????

Remember the Ceiling Walker"? It was a rubber powered stick with a prop at each end.

Yep, in fact a Ceiling Walker resides in my closet along with a 74, 404, and AJ Hornet and three Firebaby's. One Firebaby is in the garage awaiting it's OK Cub .049B, just like in 1952. A friend of my dads gave me an old oil soaked FireBall when I was 15. I flipped the wing so it would fly counter clockwise, but I didn't have an ignition engine for it, pulled the battery box and coil, tried my McCoy .29R and found the oil prevented any painting or gluing, so I tossed it in the trash. Who knew??

Floyd,

You are one sick puppy. How you could read the posts on this thread and then come up with the opinions I just read?

Oh, I get it. It's THAT Floyd, the whack job.

I thought you had been booted. Was your sentence commuted?

Be very careful if you choose to respond. I might know a lot more about Jim Walker, his company and the disposal of his company's property than you can imagine.

I have never been booted from this board. I did quit once or twice.

I have always had a great talent for telling when people are being negative and spiting somebody down. A lot of folks don't even notice but I can always tell. There was a time when I would have been bothered by being called a whack job, but those days are long gone. Today I will laugh with you and then tonight I will laugh at you.

I am sure that anything you could us about Jim Walker would be read with great interest.

>I have never been booted from this board. I did quit once
>or twice.
>
If it's twice, I strongly urge you to quit again. Three strikes and you're out would most certainly apply.

>I have always had a great talent for telling when people are
>being negative and spiting somebody down. A lot of folks
>don't even notice but I can always tell. There was a time
>when I would have been bothered by being called a whack job,
>but those days are long gone. Today I will laugh with you
>and then tonight I will laugh at you.
>
You have an ability to read things into what others write. Such is not a talent. Both your communication and people skills need serious work.

>I am sure that anything you could us about Jim Walker would
>be read with great interest.

Yeah, I didn't think you would challenge me on this one. Whack job.

Lighten up Dan. Ole Floyd makes the rest of us sound, well, normal.

Dan, I really don't know what you are getting at. I do not know what you mean by challenging you. Talk about reading too muchinto something... If you have good things to add you should just do so.

>Dan, I really don't know what you are getting at. I do not
>know what you mean by challenging you. Talk about reading
>too muchinto something... If you have good things to add you
>should just do so.

Floyd,

Nice job on the AC/DC act. First you read things which are not there, are not even implied, in posts on this thread. And then you claim to not understand a statement that even a child would easily comprehend.

Whack job.

Goat roper.

Bottom feeder.

But hey! We love ya. Reference Ty's remarks above. He's got a point, you do make the rest of look normal. And seeing as how no modeler I know is actually a "normal" person, all of us appreciate the service you provide.

No, really. And thanks.

Geez Dan, if you were referring to my question about the guy's real name, that had only to do with the fact that I wanted to look it up to make sure my memory was not failing me. Sorry if you were bothered in some way. Lighten up, fellow.

reading between the lines I picture a referee and two boxers.

thanks for all the excellent responses.

Paul Heimgaertner

p.s. I will purchase the PAMPA book.

There is an new 55 minute DVD, "American Junior Classics--Archive #1". Lots of Jim Walker footage. Available from Frank Macy, frankmacy@martin-iti-com. Info from F/F Sport column in the December 2003 Flying Models.

>I have always had a great talent for telling when people are
>being negative and spiting somebody down. A lot of folks
>don't even notice but I can always tell.

Oh dear Lord.