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Is Tuned pipe a big plus ?

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EI67 · Nov 01, 2003 04:33 PM

#0 source
Hi all
Is tuned pipe a big plus or what?
In my RC days adding a pipe was for extra vertical performance
but they also idled well and could be run on the rich side
What setup is being used with these please?
Are they run 4-2-4 or what?
Curious
Vincent
Vincentzo

SRiese5283 · Nov 01, 2003 05:50 PM

#1 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-03 AT 05:51 PM (CST)
 
SO many Questions. First TUENED PIPE is not for everyone. I happen to like the "STYLE" of run. As for power YES it's there. However, So is power from the 4-2-4 "STYLE" of run. Tuned pipe flyers say IT'S great in the wind because of the CONSTENT RUN...no wind up in doing loops, or speed up going downhill. WELL yes and no to that. It all comes down to Pitch of props and How there used. BIG BUCKS for TUNED PIPE SYSTEM. So back to your question. IT'S up to you. Do you like the sound of a "rice beater" or an Hog. I know there more to it BUT come on guy's sound is 40% of the whole thing. I fly with PIPES and WITHOUT PIPES both do there job quite well. Now I know there will be more responce here from the BIG GUN'S so take notes.

Scott(not much help)Riese

Scott Riese

Ion Brazil · Nov 01, 2003 10:14 PM

#2 source
I'm no Big Gun, but I am in love with my first engine.

Not reallt BIG BUCKS, a pipe costs 70 bucks, plus 30 for the header, you're in business.

Guess if Bob Hunt, Ted Fancher, Brett Buck, Dave Fitzgerald, Bill Werwage, Randy Smith, the top guys use pipes?

Why?


God bless you!

In Christ,

Ion

SRiese5283 · Nov 01, 2003 10:54 PM

#4 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-03 AT 10:54 PM (CST)
 
>I'm no Big Gun, but I am in love with my first engine.
>
>Not reallt BIG BUCKS, a pipe costs 70 bucks, plus 30 for the
>header, you're in business.
>
>Guess if Bob Hunt, Ted Fancher, Brett Buck, Dave Fitzgerald,
>Bill Werwage, Randy Smith, the top guys use pipes?
>
>Why?
>
>
>God bless you!
>
>In Christ,
>
>Ion

Not big bucks? over $400 for a PA-61. $100 for the pipe, $40 header that's about $550. OR to could get a MERCO 61 for about $130 and have an engine that works right out of the box!! OH YOU forgot the best PIPE FLYER MR. PAUL WALKER.

Scott(just some info)Riese

Scott Riese

Jim Pollock · Nov 02, 2003 08:10 AM

#5 source
Yup,

AND - He's the only person to win the Nats flying a Four Stroker too!!!

Jim Pollock

phantomflier · Nov 01, 2003 10:50 PM

#3 source
Depends on multiple factors as Scott says. In my case with an overweight aircraft there were real problems in certain maneuvers such as the square 8's where the wing was stalling frequently. Added a tuned pipe to the engine I was running on the plane and was able to fly a pattern where the square 8's actually had corners, the vertical lines also were more flyable as there was less speedup going downhill. In my case the answer is a definate YES.

Take a profile and add a Macs header and unsilenced pipe to the engine you're using (don't use a fox 35) and compare the performance before and after. This obviously isn't the optimal set up but it will give you a good idea what the pipe offers.

LNeumann · Nov 02, 2003 08:27 AM

#6 source
>Hi all
>Is tuned pipe a big plus or what?

A properly set up pipe system can made a decided difference over the same engine without. If it didn't, the top flyers wouldn't be using them with their added weight, complications, and cost.

However, there is an added cost, and unless you can afford to spend the time to get them set up and learn the system, you are probably better off sticking with something simpler. What I am saying is that the beginner or Intermediate flyer, who isn't sure yet whether or not he is going to make it thorugh the flight, who is still learning the shapes and the sizes, etc., is better off sticking with something simpler and spending his time practicing. I see people coming to contests trying to use Paul Walker's pipe set up and they haven't even learned to hit five foot bottoms yet.

The pipe is not going to magically boost your score 50 points (or whatever) if you are still in the early learning stages. And if you set it up wrong, it could actually hurt you, not only in performance, but in all the time spent trying to get it right. Even among the "experts" there is a lot of disagreement as to which way is best.

>In my RC days adding a pipe was for extra vertical performance
>but they also idled well and could be run on the rich side
>What setup is being used with these please?
>Are they run 4-2-4 or what?
>Curious
>Vincent
>Vincentzo

There are maybe 5 (or more) different ways to set up a pipe. For stunt you do not set it to get a significant boost in power, but to help control the power that you have. Unfortunately, some people set them up wrong and end up with nothing more than a long (and expensive) muffler.

But if the engine is made to run with a 4-2 type of break without a pipe, it can be set up to run that way with a pipe.

There are those who run it on the back side of the pipe so it "falls off" if it speeds up. There are those who run it high compression rich or low compression rich (with a big venturi to compensate) and never allow it to 2-cycle at all. You can set it to 2-cycle all the way if you want. You can set it with a 4-2 type of run where there is a heavy "kick" or you can set it up with a mild "kick". You can set it to "come on" as soon as you point the nose up, or to just burp at the top of the loops and kick in at the 45s and over (what I consider the best system with a strong engine.)

Some run them with very small 2-blade props, some try to put as large of a prop (usually 3-blade or 4-blade) that the engine will turn without straining and while still maintaining the desired type of run. Setting the pipe length for the engine and prop and setting the prop for the engine and pipe length, along with adjusting head shims, venturis, sometimes nitro content, are all a part of the equation. But if you get it right, it works well.

And once you get a "square one" setup that works, it can be duplicated. Matt just got a new engine. We broke it in on the bench for a couple of hours. He then set the gasket height to what he had been using previouisly, bolted it in the plane with the pipe length and prop he had been using, and it flew first flight right where he wanted it.

That does't mean that we won't continue to experiment, however, because the goal is to always make it better.

Leonard Neumann

SRiese5283 · Nov 02, 2003 11:32 AM

#7 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-03 AT 11:34 AM (CST)
 
MR. NEWMAN WROTE>>>The pipe is not going to magically boost your score 50 points (or whatever) if you are still in the early learning stages. And if you set it up wrong, it could actually hurt you, not only in performance, but in all the time spent trying to get it right. Even among the "experts" there is a lot of disagreement as to which way is best.

I need a bumper sticker of this.

When I started out with a pipe system I BET I SPENT (in time)2000hrs JUST to understand HOW to run the pipe set-up. COST about an extra $500 in props and different pipes....THEN about $300 in Fuel and THEN $350 in Starter, field box,tack,tack,tack, glow plugs...OH THE PLANE $199, on and on and on. I'm sure glad that the process of the tuned pipe is avalible by asking questions here on SSW or call good people like Paul Walker,Windy U, TED Fancher, Chris Cox,Don McClave, and Bruce Perry.
and of course Brett Buck.

Scott(money is on the low side)Riese

Scott Riese

Rick · Nov 02, 2003 01:05 PM

#8 source
Twice now I have been in the right place at the right time and could have bought a used, but in great condition tuned pipe engine. After a lot of thought I passed on the offer both times. The reason? I am an intermediate flyer who only flies a couple of contests a season and I felt I would be better off with one of Len's SSW 53'S and a Big Jim NIB ST 60. I ended up buying both engines NIB for about the same price as the price of the used pipe engine. I also dont have the added expense of buying the pipe and the $40-$50 price tag for the CF props. Maybe some day I will buy a tuned pipe set up but for now I am happy with what I have.


Rick Henry

peabody · Nov 02, 2003 01:39 PM

#9 source
My belief is that many of the advantages to be gained from a tuna pipe are because of the relatively flat prop. Running almost any engine with a 4 pitch (or so) prop generally yields superior performance in every realm..... most noticeably by reducing "wind up" in the wind.

Today's tuned pipe systems are truly "flip and fly"....Rich and Randy do terrific jobs of detailing what set-up to begin with and are both very willing to help.

I see a good working pipe set-up as the best currently available for top level flying.

See Ya

Peabody

Brett Buck · Nov 02, 2003 01:46 PM

#10 source
>Hi all
>Is tuned pipe a big plus or what?

Depends. The tuned pipe allowed people to use engines that were powerful but too unstable to reliably work. You have to remember that in the mid-late 80's there weren't any engines available that would work unmodified, since they had all been discontinued (ST46 in 1982-3, ST60 (good version) in about 1984-5).

Now, you can get a lot of reasonably stable engines that will run on a muffler, and if you are really into experimenting, a 4-stroke. These will work well to first approximation, if you follow the directions (the CORRECT directions from accomplished competition fliers- and there's a lot of utter nonsense floating around, particularly for 4-strokes). But, you get what you get.

A piped system is probably capable of better performance, assuming you know what you are looking for. They are much more adjustable, and I like and can hopefully take advantage of that capability. But, and this is important, if you can adjust it, you can adjust it wrong. I've seen a lot of people go way off the deep end of setup trying to "adjust it" and just screw themselves up. If you follow the directions, you will get a usable system, but maybe not optimum. If you get too far off the plan, it's can be a very frustrating experience.

To take full advantage of the flexibility of piped systems, you need to understand the underlying principles of stunt powerplants, be qualified and sufficiently experienced to objectively assess the results, and own and know how to use a pitch guage on your graphite props.

Having put enough caveats on it, piped systems are the de facto standard for stunt, and have been for about 15 years. 4-2 break motors are rare at the highest levels, and even their most ardent supporters have for the most part moved on. There are a lot of very good reasons for this, not just fashion, impression points, or the "lemming effect".

One really good reason is that the engines (PA and RO-Jett) are made so much better that $400 for something that will run for 5-6 years of competition flying with no problems is cheaper than trying to keep a lot of production engines on life support. I've spent roughly $1000 on engines for the last 15 years, and that's $66 a year - or about the cost of one NATs trip, or 4 gallons of fuel. I am certain I spent close to that much trying to keep ST46's alive (no mean feat).

If you aren't going to fly as much as some of the top fliers, then it's a personal decision whether it's worth it or not.

>In my RC days adding a pipe was for extra vertical
>performance
>but they also idled well and could be run on the rich side
>What setup is being used with these please?

I'm not quite sure what you are asking, Widely varied. If you want a standard system to start with, I recommend either a OS40/46VF (discontinued but there are a lot of them around) or a PA61/65. Both of these have a huge base of knowledge behind them and are known to be at least moderately forgiving of off-nominal tuning. Other engines are fine, although they are either more touchy, or too new to have a large amount of commonly available setup information.


>Are they run 4-2-4 or what?

Sometimes. The 4-2 break on a lot of these engines, combined with the pipe response, can be FAR TOO MUCH. I run the 40VF in a constant 2-stroke (boost/brake regulation provided by pipe and variation of ignition timing in the 2), and I run the PA61 in a constant 4-stroke. I run the RO-Jett across the break with no ill effects. Like I said above, you can probably make it run reasonably well in any mode if you know what you are doing.

Brett

LNeumann · Nov 02, 2003 04:38 PM

#11 source

>>Are they run 4-2-4 or what?
>
> Sometimes. The 4-2 break on a lot of these engines,
>combined with the pipe response, can be FAR TOO MUCH. I run
>the 40VF in a constant 2-stroke (boost/brake regulation
>provided by pipe and variation of ignition timing in the 2),
>and I run the PA61 in a constant 4-stroke. I run the RO-Jett
>across the break with no ill effects. Like I said above, you
>can probably make it run reasonably well in any mode if you
>know what you are doing.
>
> Brett

It again depends on the engine. The PA series of engines are timed such that you can run them however you want them. If you set them up 4-2 style, you can adjust the "bark" with head shims or nitro. Brett probably likes less "kick" than we do, but that is personal choice and something each person can adjust for himself. You have to be willing to make that adjustment, however.

Leonard Neumann

Brett Buck · Nov 02, 2003 05:11 PM

#12 source
>
>>>Are they run 4-2-4 or what?
>>
>> Sometimes. The 4-2 break on a lot of these engines,
>>combined with the pipe response, can be FAR TOO MUCH. I run
>>the 40VF in a constant 2-stroke (boost/brake regulation
>>provided by pipe and variation of ignition timing in the 2),
>>and I run the PA61 in a constant 4-stroke. I run the RO-Jett
>>across the break with no ill effects. Like I said above, you
>>can probably make it run reasonably well in any mode if you
>>know what you are doing.
>>
>> Brett
>
>It again depends on the engine. The PA series of engines
>are timed such that you can run them however you want them.
>If you set them up 4-2 style, you can adjust the "bark" with
>head shims or nitro. Brett probably likes less "kick" than
>we do, but that is personal choice and something each person
>can adjust for himself. You have to be willing to make that
>adjustment, however.

And know what adjustment to make, which was really the point I was trying to make.


It's been my observation and experience that the 61/65 are a lot more forgiving than the 51, or even more so, the 40 - and then it's mostly just a matter of having to push the 40 closer to the edge to fly the same airplane.

Brett

Jim Pollock · Nov 02, 2003 05:40 PM

#13 source
Brett,

Good reading here! My PA .51 must be very exceptional. It is
dead solid reliable with the exact same great run characteristics every time! Although I would like to get ahold of a .61 and try it out too. Of course it helps me a lot to listen to Randy because we
share a similar flying environment (altitude, Humidity, Temperatures,ect.), and he's used .51's a lot too

Jim Pollock, ex WAM 355!

P.S. Sure hope I can make it to the Nats again this year. Hopefully
my son's wedding on the 10th of Jul won't interfere too much!!!

Brett Buck · Nov 02, 2003 05:51 PM

#14 source
>Brett,
>
>Good reading here! My PA .51 must be very exceptional. It
>is
>dead solid reliable with the exact same great run
>characteristics every time!

That's a little bit different - response to external conditions is not quite the same as response to intentional adjustments. It's not overly sensitve to adjustments - just more than the 61.

Brett

Gary Weaver · Nov 02, 2003 08:49 PM

#15 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-03 AT 02:01 PM (CST)
 
.

Gary Weaver

Brett Buck · Nov 02, 2003 09:26 PM

#17 source

>There are all sorts of stuff written on what makes a tuned
>pipe work. Most of it is non sence. None of the formulas
>take into account the type of metal or metal thickness of
>the tuned pipe.
>It works totally off of exhaust heat from the engine and the
>cooling ability of the tuned pipe to cool the hot exhaust
>gas. As we all know hot things expand and cold things
>contracts. The hot gas goes into the tube gets cooled a few
>100 degrees, contracts and creates a vaccuum that sucks the
>exhaust right out of the engine, which inturn gives the
>engine a better fuel/air charge for the next compression
>cycle. It all has to do with sizing the tube to match the
>amount of exhaust the engine produces at a certain RPM. The
>tuned pipe is basically a radiator for cooling the hot
>exhaust gas. You need to read thermodynamics to totally
>understand it. I can't explane it very well. It has
>NOTHING to do with frequency like most people beleive.

Hmm.....

Brett

Iskandar Taib · Nov 02, 2003 09:39 PM

#18 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-03 AT 09:45 PM (CST)
 
Sounds pretty hit and miss to me. Looks like they don't have the expansion and reflection cones, either, maybe that's why the length doesn't matter and they work differently than other pipes (where length does matter). Maybe it's another variation on the tuned muffler (like the ones on Nelson pylon engines) rather than a true tuned pipe.

There's another way to build a tuned muffler:

http://webpages.charter.net/rcfu/ConstGuide/MCM.html
http://www.georgiacombat.com/KYMousseCan.html

These are a lot easier to make, and are very popular with the RC Unlimited Fun Fly (which is actuall very serious competition ) and RC Combat crowds.

Mind you, the tuned pipes used in Stunt are NOT meant to be used to increase power, rather, they're used to limit the engine RPM on the downward legs of maneuvers.

SRiese5283 · Nov 02, 2003 09:52 PM

#19 source
"Mind you, the tuned pipes used in Stunt are NOT meant to be used to increase power, rather, they're used to limit the engine RPM on the downward legs of maneuvers. "

NO

Scott(sorry wrong answer)Riese

Scott Riese

Iskandar Taib · Nov 03, 2003 12:58 AM

#21 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-03 AT 00:59 AM (CST)
 
Explain please? I keep hearing all this stuff about "constant speed" and "braking in the maneuvers" that are attributed to pipes.

phantomflier · Nov 03, 2003 01:12 AM

#22 source
When we were beginning to play around with pipes i did a lot of timing planes with and without pipes. One day timed two similar size planes one with a Tigre 60 the other with a piped 40. The lap times were the same, however the first lap of the piped plane was almost 2 seconds quicker and the piped plane finished the pattern over 15 seconds quicker. It not only keeps the engine from speeding up, it helps it accelerate faster, and keeps the plane from slowing down as much in maneuvers.

SRiese5283 · Nov 03, 2003 01:30 AM

#23 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-03 AT 01:31 AM (CST)
 
>Explain please? I keep hearing all this stuff about
>"constant speed" and "braking in the maneuvers" that are
>attributed to pipes.

NOW you said the Right Answer!
What I like about pipes is.... The way the plane reacts to the Gyro, the speed of the plane through out the maneuvers, the three-blade prop, sound, reliability, knowing that it I can change engine setting (fuel, props, shims) with ease, and it’s down right KOOL. Piped engines also seem to have a good power to weight ratio. OH I still like the ST-60 and Fox .35 but their “DUMB ENGINES” you fuel it, flip it, fly it! Pipe engines you have to go to pipe school 101. That's what I Like....

Scott(Thank you to "DR. Walker" PSMD)Riese


Scott Riese

Iskandar Taib · Nov 03, 2003 04:14 AM

#24 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-03 AT 04:16 AM (CST)
 
I still don't see how my earlier explanation was wrong. Stunt pipe use isn't the same as pipe use in, say, F2A or F3D. There the tuned pipe is used to boost the power output of the engines to the maximum of their potential. In Stunt it's used to keep the engine from over-revving, mainly on the downlines rather than to get the engine to produce the maximum amount of power possible.

LNeumann · Nov 03, 2003 08:31 AM

#25 source
>I still don't see how my earlier explanation was wrong.
>Stunt pipe use isn't the same as pipe use in, say, F2A or
>F3D. There the tuned pipe is used to boost the power output
>of the engines to the maximum of their potential. In Stunt
>it's used to keep the engine from over-revving, mainly on
>the downlines rather than to get the engine to produce the
>maximum amount of power possible.

It is not just the over-reving on the downside, Iskander. I, personally, do NOT like flying on the backside of the power curve, even if it is only the back side of the pipe power curve. It is a total package experience.

You are absolutely right that in stunt the pipe is not used to get the maximum power output, or boost. That would be counter productive without control. We (that is "us", personally) set the pipe so it will unload into what sounds like a deep 4-cycle after about one lap. You can even hear a "rattle" in the pipe from the sound wave hitting, which indicates you are on the setting (again, this is "we", personally. Others may set theirs up differently and may not hear this). Ideally, as I understand it, the sound wave should be returning just before the piston closes the exhaust.

As you know, our 2-cycle engines are inputing fuel mixture into the cylinder before all of the spent exhaust has been expelled. Unfortunately, some of the good mixture goes out the door with the exhaust before the piston closes the port. What the sound wave does is return and push a bit of that mixture back in just before the door is closed. It is a kind of super charging effect, but it is constant and consistent. If the engine speeds up, or if the pipe is set too long, the wave won't come back in time and there will be no boost. If it slows down too much or the pipe is set too short, it will come back too soon and can actually burn the insides of the engine. Thus we need to set the pipe length to the rpm that we are running in the air. But it becomes self regulating when set correctly.

Now the engine still has a range when set correctly, and we can still use the characteristics of the engine to our preferred way of running. Some like a rich 4-cycle throughout the pattern where it never breaks into a 2-cycle and never picks up too much as it goes through the maneuvers (but the engine doesn't slow down, either). We like a little break towards the top of the loops and above 45 degrees. That way you get a little more engine speed when and where you need it. But it is a controlled break--we are talking sometimes one or two thousandths of a difference in head shims--so that the maneuver speed remains more constant while the engine speed does, indeed, change. If the engine speed remains constant, the maneuver speed will change. If the engine speed changes--in a controlled change--then you can use that change to keep the maneuver speed constant (or more so) while the engine "does its thing."

Oh, and on braking. You know what a helicopter does. If you take a toy helicopter and lock the blade and drop it, it will drop with a thud (don't try this with your local news "Eye in the Sky" helicopter). On the other hand, if the blade is turning, even if the engine is not running, it will "parachute" down to safety--you know, like those Maple leaf seeds that "whirly bird" down from the tree. It is all a matter of disk area on a rotating prop, and the action of that disk area brakes the downward plunge so it isn't all gravity. On our airplanes the same thing happens to a lesser extent when the rotational speed of the prop is less than the speed of the airplane on the downward leg. It has to run slower at this point in order for there to be any braking action. But then the prop acts as a brake to slow the downward drop and help keep the maneuver speed more constant.

Leonard Neumann

LNeumann · Nov 02, 2003 10:19 PM

#20 source

>Mind you, the tuned pipes used in Stunt are NOT meant to be
>used to increase power, rather, they're used to limit the
>engine RPM on the downward legs of maneuvers.

We have got a lot of interesting stuff here, but...

I like to say the pipe is used to control the run. And how it does it all depends on how it is set up. Most are not set up (intentionally) to fall off the pipe if they speed up, (the back side of the curve) but to run within a range of rpm. And they do not work to cool and therefore extract the exhaust. They work on the frequency of the exhaust to reflect the wave and to push a little of the charge back in that would otherwise go out with the charge. It thus becomes a supercharging effect. It is for this reason that the length gets critical with the rpm. The faster you run, the shorter the pipe. And the slower you run, the longer the pipe. And size does make a difference. since the tuned pipe is a form of expansion muffler (in addition to a tuned exhaust) a larger diameter (wthin reason) will produce less back pressure and thus more power. The PA 65 pipe, being bigger in diameter, allows the 61 engine to produce more power than the pipe originally made for the 61.

Now, I wonder how that coper tubing pipe stacks up weight wise with the carbon fiber props (I already know how it stacks up power wise.)

Leonard Neumann

iroquois · Nov 02, 2003 08:53 PM

#16 source
That's a negative.

SRiese5283 · Nov 03, 2003 11:31 AM

#26 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-03 AT 11:32 AM (CST)
 
MR NEWMAN WROTE>>>They work on the frequency of the exhaust to reflect the wave and to push a little of the charge back in that would otherwise go out with the charge. It thus becomes a supercharging effect. It is for this reason that the length gets critical with the rpm. The faster you run, the shorter the pipe. And the slower you run, the longer the pipe. And size does make a difference. since the tuned pipe is a form of expansion muffler (in addition to a tuned exhaust) a larger diameter (wthin reason) will produce less back pressure and thus more power.

PERFECT. With baffels TUNED MUFFERS become TUNED PIPES.

Scott(450hz)Riese

ISKY. I know where you where going. When you said "JUST DOWNHILL" That's why I said "NOPE"....loved your web sight!

Scott Riese