Thank a Vet

Today, as we're all enjoying the good life, in freedom and prosperity, I'd like to remind everyone that our veterans made great sacrifices to protect our way of life. Many of them gave the ultimate sacrifice..

Remember our veterans and honor them, they honor us all. And say a prayer for our soldiers in Iraq, for God to protect them. May our troubled world find peace.

[photo not recovered: 3e69bb3870f12ad5.jpg]

"I wanted to do something different, and I figured this would be the highest honor, as far as the Army goes." -Danyell Elaine Wilson, US Army Sergeant, first woman to guard the Tomb of the Unknowns, 1996.

Thanks for the post.
Gulf Vet 1990-91

An excellent post, Larry.

No-one likes wars or fatal conflicts, but human nature being what it is, such is sometimes necessary to preserve peace. If that sounds like a Catch-22 situation, so is being human in this day and age.

By my 60+ year old observations, there are too many people today who conveniently forget that, in their zeal to "make a better world", they have the freedom to express their opinions and demonstrate against perceived wrongs because of the hundreds of thousands of people who paid dearly in gaining and retaining that very same freedom.

May we all remember them!

>No-one likes wars or fatal conflicts, but human nature being
>what it is, such is sometimes necessary to preserve peace.
>
>By my 60+ year old observations, there are too many people
>today who conveniently forget that, in their zeal to "make a
>better world", they have the freedom to express their
>opinions and demonstrate against perceived wrongs because of
>the hundreds of thousands of people who paid dearly in
>gaining and retaining that very same freedom.

I have tremendous respect for the vets of all wars that I have met--most recently the USMC Corsair pilots of WWII.

And I support our troops worldwide in the legitimate defense of democracy.

But that does not extend to supporting the policies of an adminstration who led us into the current quagmire under false pretenses

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1082289,00.html

and has done more than any other in the history of the republic to curtail the freedoms they claim to be protecting.

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_government&Number=1013010#Post1013010

Unfortunately in this increasingly polarized environment, if you criticise the current administration, you are liable to be labled unpatriotic (at the least) rather than listened to.

Thanking a vet for his/her contribution to our liberty is one thing.

Blind acquesience to a flawed agenda wrapped in a flag is another.

I salute the veterans.

Hi Cy

You make an excellent point, but perhaps Rememberence Day - November 11th, and specifically the hour of 11:00 AM, is not the time to raise what are clearly political issues.

As the day's name states, it is a day to Remember. If I can remember my History lessons, this date and time commemorates the end of World War 1 - supposedly the war to end all wars. Yet just 20 years later, mankind was at it again. Will we ever learn!

>Hi Cy
>
>You make an excellent point, but perhaps Rememberence Day -
>November 11th, and specifically the hour of 11:00 AM, is not
>the time to raise what are clearly political issues.
>
>As the day's name states, it is a day to Remember. If I can
>remember my History lessons, this date and time commemorates
>the end of World War 1 - supposedly the war to end all wars.
>Yet just 20 years later, mankind was at it again. Will we
>ever learn!

I agree with Cy completely. I salute ALL the veterans who gave so much- NOT the people who sent them there and somehow managed to stay home themselves.
I always remember my Dad on this day especially- he was the one who taught me to build these darn silly model airplanes and who (along with my mom) gave me a life-long love of aviation.

Thanks again Dad,

John A. Kelinske, Sr.
LtCol., USAF: 1952-1980

PS: It used to be called Armistice Day. On November 11, 1918, an French built 75mm howitzer with an American crew fired the final shot of "The War to end all wars". The shell was timed to land in the German lines at exactly the moment the cease fire went into effect.
The gun still exists in a museum (I forget where exactly at the moment).

Peace,

LAST EDITED ON Nov-11-03 AT 05:01 PM (CST)
 
Jake,

My father also encouraged the love of aviation in my brother and me.

Thanks again, Dad.

Clyde Earl Eaton 1918-1975
USMC, 1942 to 1946, Decorated and shotdown Marine SBD Pilot, Capt.
USAF (AK ANG, one of the founding officers) 1952 to 1958-took unit from recips to jets

As one myself, I also salute all other Veterans past and, unfortunately, future, today as well.

Paul M. Eaton USAF 01Aug67 to 31Jul73, SSgt. upon leaving service

Well, that begs the question--if not now, then when?

I am not trying to make a political point so much as I am trying to remember what the veterans faught and died for. And to point out that it is quietly slipping away.

If the civilized solution to changing the direction of the administration of the country is to engage in a debate of ideas using words as tools rather than, say, storming the White House with machine guns and declaring martial law, then am I not remembering the sacrifice of those who gave their lives for the country in the most appropriate manner?

And, speaking of symbolism, I was interrupted in the typing of this piece by the unmistakable rumble of muliple radial engines.

I dashed outside just in time to see the B-17 "Sentimental Journey" pass overhead.

I gave a cheer and a salute.

May we never forget.

Cy, That was well put.

Very well put. I couldn't agree more.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-14-03 AT 03:19 PM (CST)
 
>
>>No-one likes wars or fatal conflicts, but human nature being
>>what it is, such is sometimes necessary to preserve peace.
>>
>>By my 60+ year old observations, there are too many people
>>today who conveniently forget that, in their zeal to "make a
>>better world", they have the freedom to express their
>>opinions and demonstrate against perceived wrongs because of
>>the hundreds of thousands of people who paid dearly in
>>gaining and retaining that very same freedom.
>
>I have tremendous respect for the vets of all wars that I
>have met--most recently the USMC Corsair pilots of WWII.
>
>And I support our troops worldwide in the legitimate defense
>of democracy.
>
>But that does not extend to supporting the policies of an
>adminstration who led us into the current quagmire under
>false pretenses
>
>http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1082289,00.html
>
>and has done more than any other in the history of the
>republic to curtail the freedoms they claim to be
>protecting.
>
>http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_government&Number=1013010#Post1013010
>
>Unfortunately in this increasingly polarized environment, if
>you criticise the current administration, you are liable to
>be labled unpatriotic (at the least) rather than listened
>to.
>
>Thanking a vet for his/her contribution to our liberty is
>one thing.
>
>Blind acquesience to a flawed agenda wrapped in a flag is
>another.
>
>I salute the veterans.
>
>Cy

Cy,

Would you cae to take a look at this?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/11/20031106-2.html

God bless you!

In Christ,

Cy (and supporters),

I beg to disagree. The current administration has sent a very powerful message to all governments that harbor and support Islamic terrorists: If you mess with the USA, you will be held accountable- and there will be a terrible price to pay.

It's really no more difficult to understand than that. And I would add that in my opinion, Bush has been very restrained in how he has handled things since 9/11, perhaps too much so.

Thanks Larry,
1983-92 U.S.A.F.

Thank all of you that served. Few actually realize the sacrifices you all make even in peace time, let alone in times of conflict.

God bless you all, and thanks again...

And to all of you Marines, Happy (belated) Birthday!

God bless!

>Thank all of you that served. Few actually realize the
>sacrifices you all make even in peace time, let alone in
>times of conflict.
>
>God bless you all, and thanks again...
>
>And to all of you Marines, Happy (belated) Birthday!
>
>God bless!
>
>Mike

Amen.

And BTW, the United States Navy and the United States Marine Corps are the ONLY two armed services authorized to exist and bear arms under the Constitution in defense of the United States or it's citizens thereof, either upon the land (Marines) or the high seas (Navy). And now you know why ALL the guards at US embassies worldwide are US Marines.

Don't forget Under God.

THANKS VETS

Scott(son just joined the ARMY)Riese

> Don't forget Under God.
>
>THANKS VETS
>
>Scott(son just joined the ARMY)Riese

May all that is just and good watch over him and keep him safe and well.

Do you know what happened to Sgt. Alvin York- United States Army?
He won the Medal of Honor in WW-I for extreme heroism. The rest of the story they never tell you is that the State he lived in later took his farm away from him for back taxes he couldn't afford to pay...

I too want to say THANK'S to all the Vet's without them we wouldn't have the FREEDOM'S that we akll take so much for granted...
Gil Causey USAF 1960-1964...
And Thank You Larry Cunningham for reminding U. S.

In April of 2002 I sat and talked with my uncle Frank about how things were. I was in France when we talked. I remembered that he was under age when he lied about that and joind the army. I told him about his brother, my dad who flew for two countries, England and America in the Great War and how he tried to install in me a sense of loyalty to those that came before me. I told him about how tough it was for those that were immigrants to the US. He listened patiently and didn't say anything.Then it was time to leave him. When I left him I said,"Thanks Uncle Frank!"

He has been in France since June 6th, 1918. He and my Father are still with me in my mind and in my heart.

My Father fought and my Uncle Frank fought and died so that any Tom,Dick or Harry could openly voice his opinion, no matter how inane or improper.Just don't do it where I can hear it!

Joe Just

Every year I save all my small change and give it to the rafaa wings charity - this year the old chap collecting said my £30 donation warranted and 'individual' donation mention and I got the attached sticker!

The more I see of the first world war the more I'm shocked, amazed, uplifted and disheartened all at once!

http://www.the.elmores.btinternet.co.uk/stunt/_cat001.html

http://www.the.elmores.btinternet.co.uk/articles/articles_cat.html

This weekend I learned that the man who gave me one of my first jobs passed on. His name was Myron Obe Weekley from Grand Forks, N.D.
He flew 35 missions over Europe in B-24s and left the USAF Reserve as a Major. He was a tough boss, opinionated, hard to work for and harder to argue with. He was one of the untold heroes that this day is set aside for. Thanks for everything Mo, rest peacefully.

LB Heher

Bill heher-a.k.a. Fix-it
If it's broke - fix-it.
If it's not broke,
Let me fly it for a minute!

>In April of 2002 I sat and talked with my uncle Frank about
>how things were. I was in France when we talked. I
>remembered that he was under age when he lied about that and
>joind the army. I told him about his brother, my dad who
>flew for two countries, England and America in the Great War
>and how he tried to install in me a sense of loyalty to
>those that came before me. I told him about how tough it was
>for those that were immigrants to the US. He listened
>patiently and didn't say anything.Then it was time to leave
>him. When I left him I said,"Thanks Uncle Frank!"
>
>He has been in France since June 6th, 1918. He and my Father
>are still with me in my mind and in my heart.
>
>My Father fought and my Uncle Frank fought and died so that
>any Tom,Dick or Harry could openly voice his opinion, no
>matter how inane or improper.Just don't do it where I can
>hear it!
>
>Joe Just

I forgot my great-grandfather: William Alonzo Davis, Pvt., First Texas Volunteer Cavalry, Spanish American War.
He was half Choctaw Indian, and owed NOTHING at all to the US government, yet he ran away from home at 14 and enlisted.... He fought in Cuba under "T.R"- the marker is still on his gravesite at Patmos. Arkansas (just a few mile from Hope....).

LAST EDITED ON Nov-12-03 AT 10:13 AM (CST)
 
I remember, Great Grandfather King; Civil war, both grandfathers Ryan and Jewett; WWI, my dad and uncles Jim, Ken, Leon(Purple Heart); WWII, uncle Ken(Purple Heart); Korea, brother Art 101st Air Born, cousins Steve, Hugh, Jim, Rich; US Army along with all the others I don't know. May they never be forgotten and may those that make a mockery of their sacrifices be forever silenced because they are unappreciative of what it took to allow them to badmouth everything and burn the flag they actually huddle under.

I am much ashamed to have forgotten to mention my son Chris, Tsgt USAF Active, Iraqi Freedom Vet, and son Randy II, US Army Corps of Engineers, Desert storm Vet. Its odd how I still think of them as kids, these fine young men doing what generations before them did. I expect their folks thought of them as "kids" too.

Randy Ryan
Ssgt USAF 1972-1978

AMA 8500
SAM 36
I fly 'em all and love it!

One of the very good things that are now available on the TV are the interviews that they have with all of the veterans. The thing that touches me the most is the fact that even the WW I vets now in their late 90's at times loose it when reliving the memories. Sometimes hard to watch but it gives you a small idea of the sacrifices that they made then and are still being made even now. Thanks to them all!

>I remember, Great Grandfather King; Civil war, both
>grandfathers Ryan and Jewett; WWI, my dad and uncles Jim,
>Ken, Leon(Purple Heart); WWII, uncle Ken(Purple Heart);
>Korea, brother Art 101st Air Born, cousins Steve, Hugh, Jim,
>Rich; US Army along with all the others I don't know. May
>they never be forgotten and may those that make a mockery of
>their sacrifices be forever silenced because they are
>unappreciative of what it took to allow them to badmouth
>everything and burn the flag they actually huddle under.
>
>Randy Ryan
>Ssgt USAF 1972-1978
>
>AMA 8500
>SAM 36
>I fly 'em all and love it!

Sometimes you have to burn a flag to make a point.
The "stars and stripes" is actually derived from the flag of the British East India Company- one of the most oppressive, blood thirsty and self serving groups of people that have ever walked this planet.

Thanks Larry. I lost a very good friend in Nam. My service was exciting, but not that much different from many, many others. Christmas, I quickly learned, was just another day at sea!
Ty Marcucci, SMC, USN, Ret Aug 1960-Aug 1980. I miss it and the life.

>Thanks Larry. I lost a very good friend in Nam. My service
>was exciting, but not that much different from many, many
>others. Christmas, I quickly learned, was just another day
>at sea!
> Ty Marcucci, SMC, USN, Ret Aug 1960-Aug 1980. I miss it
>and the life.

One (combat) 'Nam vet I have known, once pulled the following "gag" on me on Veteran's Day:

Vet: "Did I ever tell you about the time I was surrounded by 250 Viet Cong?

Me: No, what happened"

Vet: I was killed...

Me: Wait a second here, you're still alive!

Vet: You call this living?

J.

The other day I was at a book store looking at an airplane encyclopedia. I happen to be looking at a P-38 reconnaissance model when this elderly gentleman comes up to me and says: "You know, I flew these in WW2". I made him tell me what he flew, about the model, where and which service was he part of, war stories. He talked with me for a while and then bid farewell and went looking for his great grandaughter. I was so fascinated by his stories forgot to tell him how thankful I was for what he did.

To you sir and to all you vets: Thank you!

When I was AD (USAF '79-'84) I volunteered to give a Veterans Day talk at an elementary school north of Boston, MA. As I walked across the parking lot a mail carrier spotted me and came racing over, honking his horn and hailing "Hey Lieutenant!". He wanted me to know he was at Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941 on a ship (whose name escapes me) outside the harbor. They fished one of the two USAAF pilots out of the ocean who managed to take off and mix it up with the attackers before he got splashed.

I thanked him. He said, "No, thank YOU!"

My late father's military career spanned 1944-67 and saw service in Europe, Korea and SE Asia.

We all have a lot to be thankful for.

Thanks for the veterans day wishes. And thanks from me to all Vets past and future. You know Cy, you could have just left it with the thanks instead of the political B/S.
Wayne Buran
Vietnam Vet

LAST EDITED ON Nov-11-03 AT 11:42 PM (CST)
 
Many are the emotions I feel at this time of year.

I'm often upset by some of the things I feel are wrong with my country, but never ashamed of the brave souls who have, and are serving to allow me the freedoms I still have.

My father, and almost all of my male relatives served in the Navy during WW2 Dad was one of 2 sole survivors of his unit after Tarawa. His brother, Uncle Bill was at Pearl when the Japanese attacked. My uncle Gordon, served in and around Australia, he met and married my Aunt there. He happened to be on the Sub evacuating what they could from Corrigidor. Uncle Marden didn't survive the war. Another uncle was on the Yorktown when it was hit. He survived.

It was only natural for me, when my time came to also chose the Navy, and like Ty, I miss it. I wish I'd had the foresite to have made it my career. Served on a Destroyer that was invloved in a few happenings before the big push into Vietnam in '64. We were relieved off station by The Maddox and Turner Joy.

My oldest son now serves in the Navy, and he has made it his career.

Some of my relatives have told me a little about their service. I'm amazed at the everyday courage as well as the looks, and sometimes pain.

For all who have served, and are serving, God bless you, and thanks from one old vet.

I'm wondering why everything is spinning around?

Larry,

Thank you very much for this post; USAF Vietnam Vet 1964-1968.

Veterans Day Salute, Tuesday, November 11, 2003 By Neil Cavuto

He never called himself a hero.

When drafted into World War II, he never thought of not going.

He said there were plenty of times he was plenty afraid.

He hung around with pals, but he missed his family.

He never even considered the possibility he would be on the losing side, or that he'd be abroad so long.

He never complained. He never questioned. He never second-guessed.

He kept his faith and kept his sanity.

He believed in simple things, but real things. Things like good and evil, right and wrong, pain and sacrifice.

He gave it all for his country and he returned to a grateful country.

He got married and he started a family.

He was stern, but fair. Tough, but kind.

He saw life as black and white.

A battle to do good in a world where there was plenty bad.

He grew old. And he stayed old-fashioned.

Money is nice, he would say. Just being decent is nicer still.

He was not a rich man. Or a famous man. He was just my father. A veteran. Gone now. But not forgotten now.

To him and to all who gave so much, know that I'm not fit to ever be you. But I'm grateful this Veterans Day to simply say thank you.

I added this as an edit to more first reply, but wanted to make sure you all see it.

I am much ashamed to have forgotten to mention my son Chris, Tsgt USAF Active, Iraqi Freedom Vet, and son Randy II, US Army Corps of Engineers, Desert storm Vet. Its odd how I still think of them as kids, these fine young men doing what generations before them did. I expect their folks thought of them as "kids" too.

A note of thanks to all who remembered, reflected, and all that have served. I always remember my state of mind as a young Army NCO, who I served with and in retrospect... just how young we were and willing....still today.

To be lead at so tender an age, believing in the greater good, in something larger than self, and not really knowing the big picture, but simply the risk and accepting it is the real Valor.

I pray for all those soldiers/kids/men/women that are now in service to us. I pray that their sacrifice be just, for the greater good and not in vain. A world which seldom acknowleges what real sacrifice is to a family, nor sees much past todays comfort, offers up its finest youth in the spirit of righteous nationalism. May that service and sacrifice always be remembered.

I hope those families now placing their sons and daughters in harms way will know that we more than appreciate their potential loss. Every time I think of a young trooper on guard duty or patrol getting snuffed in a car bombing or other terrorist act without a chance to ply his trade and training in a real fight I get emotionally and sometimes physically ill. When I entered the service I did not know that I would never really get out. Eleven seems to be a real number, world wide, for the past century.

Larry,

Thanks for initiating this thread, and for the way in which you did so, keeping the focus where it belongs.

Gee, Larry!

I ain't an American citizen, I never fought any war,neither anyone in my family...

But I just can't stay outta this one!!

So, I can add:

1 - The field where I fly is right by a monument called "For The Unknown Soldier".

It is some 15 meters tall, and the remnants of the Btrazilian soldiers that died in Italy and were buried there, in the city of Pistoia and were brought back to their homeland are resting there.

The place is guarded 24 hour a day by sentinels with gala outfits.

Each month the force changes, one month the Navy, one the Army and one the Air Force.

It's forbidden to park your car with the rear facing the monument.

To get to the field you gotta show your papers, (if you're gonna fly the plane will do...).

Funny thing, the Army gives us a hard time, the Navy is so and so, but when it's Air Force month...no sweat.

When Brazil joined the allies against the axis our boys were sent in a haste, they had not proper clothes, and they had to stuff newspapes under what they had, it was very cold.

This stupid Btrazilian General (lets not mention his name) got them to attack a German position, heavily armed with machine guns.

He just said "Ahead, Brazil!", and when the Germans saw that they were shouting "Go back, you're gonna die!"

Well, they had to shoot, and our first mission in Italy was a disaster.

Next thing this General was arrested by the US forces, and they gave our boys proper coats, etc.

They fought bravely and had this big victory at Monte Castello.

The Brazilian pilots flew those Thunderbolts and were very good at it.

I am not the patriotic kind of guy, all men are my countrymen.

But you all must know, by my posts, how I feel about America.

America has always been on the "right side" in all wars, and the whole world should feel in debt with your Vets.

Same about the brave British men.

America inspired so many countries into shakin' off their opressers and becoming independent democracies.

At this moment in Rio de Janeiro, Ion Brazil is going to stand up and salute your veterans.

(I just stood up and gave them my salutation)

God bless America the Beautiful!

I pray that America will stay faithful to it's spirit of democracy, freedom and justice!

Of course some administrations might have not been so fortunate in some of their decisions, but democracy includes law and order.

Jake and Cy do not agree with some of the present administration's decisions, but I think the Pres is the Pres.

He as elected by the people and the people's support is importat, it's the only president you have.

By support I don't mean yessing him to death, but voicing your opinions, if necessary, and this in a way that he knows that Americans are not letting him down.

I was deeply touched by this thread!

Tom McLain, I copied what you wrote.

God bless you!

In Christ,

"Jake and Cy do not agree with some of the present administration's decisions, but I think the Pres is the Pres.
He as elected by the people and the people's support is importat, it's the only president you have.By support I don't mean yessing him to death, but voicing your opinions, if necessary, and this in a way that he knows that Americans are not letting him down.
I was deeply touched by this thread!

So was I and by you history of Brazil's role in WW-II

As far as Dubya goes, that slopehead went AWOL for a year and a half from his Air National Guard posting- during the height of the Vietnam War. He couldn't even pass the physical with the flight surgeon to allow him to fly the squadron's T-33 to keep his flight status up.
My dad had blood pressure higher than the moon's orbit and he drank like a fish (off duty)- but in 28 years military flying he never once had a single accident, never lost an aircraft or a crewmember, and never once failed to show up for duty and accomplish the mission ordered him.
You couldn't get the sweat stains out of his flight suits with dry cleaning. He flew so much he had skin cancer and cataracts from the UV, he died at 64- worn out.
I'm looking forward to Dubya's visit to London next week- I am hoping to see his "statue" pulled down in the planned protests.
I'll support the current US goobernment when the floor of H*ll turns to rice pudding.

Peace,

LAST EDITED ON Nov-12-03 AT 08:08 PM (CST)
 
KOREA 1960

VIET NAM 1961 62 63 66 67

THANKS!

>"Jake and Cy do not agree with some of the present
>administration's decisions, but I think the Pres is the
>Pres.
>He as elected by the people and the people's support is
>importat, it's the only president you have.By support I
>don't mean yessing him to death, but voicing your opinions,
>if necessary, and this in a way that he knows that Americans
>are not letting him down.
>I was deeply touched by this thread!
>
>So was I and by you history of Brazil's role in WW-II
>
>As far as Dubya goes, that slopehead went AWOL for a year
>and a half from his Air National Guard posting- during the
>height of the Vietnam War. He couldn't even pass the
>physical with the flight surgeon to allow him to fly the
>squadron's T-33 to keep his flight status up.
>My dad had blood pressure higher than the moon's orbit and
>he drank like a fish (off duty)- but in 28 years military
>flying he never once had a single accident, never lost an
>aircraft or a crewmember, and never once failed to show up
>for duty and accomplish the mission ordered him.
>You couldn't get the sweat stains out of his flight suits
>with dry cleaning. He flew so much he had skin cancer and
>cataracts from the UV, he died at 64- worn out.
>I'm looking forward to Dubya's visit to London next week- I
>am hoping to see his "statue" pulled down in the planned
>protests.
>I'll support the current US goobernment when the floor of
>H*ll turns to rice pudding.
>
>Peace,
>
>Jake

Reading your posts over the last few months, Jake, it appears that you are just bitter and over the top about nearly everything. This thread seems to be merely another forum for your ranting and bitterness. Lay down and lighten up.

>As far as Dubya goes, that slopehead went AWOL for a year
>and a half from his Air National Guard posting- during the
>height of the Vietnam War. He couldn't even pass the
>physical with the flight surgeon to allow him to fly the
>squadron's T-33 to keep his flight status up.

Dear Jake,

I happen to be a retired ANG Fighter Pilot and am completely familiar with the President's ANG participation. Your facts are incorrect. He was a fully qualified and fit F-102 Interceptor Pilot for the Ellington Guard. He was on active duty for two years and then was a Mission Ready pilot for almost 2 years. He never had a problem with his flight physical. Get your facts right before embarrassing yourself this way.

I hate to hurt YOUR feelings Col, but you need to check YOUR facts. What I said is absolutely correct;

>I hate to hurt YOUR feelings Col, but you need to check YOUR
>facts. What I said is absolutely correct;
>
>J

Sorry Jake, I did some very detailed indepth research on this and you couldn't be more wrong. But then why would you worry about that.

>>I hate to hurt YOUR feelings Col, but you need to check YOUR
>>facts. What I said is absolutely correct;
>>
>>J
>
>Sorry Jake, I did some very detailed indepth research on
>this and you couldn't be more wrong. But then why would you
>worry about that.

Then I'd say your "research" is as flawed and faulty as your logic is.
I couldn't be more correct and your response is further proof of that.
The 102 was deployed to 'Nam; if Dubya was so "highly qualified" and such a "brave warrior"- why wasn't he FIRST in line to go overseas?
For anybody really interested in finding out the truth, I'd suggest submitting an FOIA (Freedom Of Information Act) request for the squadron records and Dubya's military records. You can do it on my Dad also- I'll give you his service number and etc.
I can guarantee you right now that in Dubya's case, you will be absolutely amazed at the stonewalling and BS you'll get in response.

Peace,

>>>I hate to hurt YOUR feelings Col, but you need to check YOUR
>>>facts. What I said is absolutely correct;
>>>
>>>J
>>
>>Sorry Jake, I did some very detailed indepth research on
>>this and you couldn't be more wrong. But then why would you
>>worry about that.
>
>
>Then I'd say your "research" is as flawed and faulty as your
>logic is.
>I couldn't be more correct and your response is further
>proof of that.
>The 102 was deployed to 'Nam; if Dubya was so "highly
>qualified" and such a "brave warrior"- why wasn't he FIRST
>in line to go overseas?
>For anybody really interested in finding out the truth, I'd
>suggest submitting an FOIA (Freedom Of Information Act)
>request for the squadron records and Dubya's military
>records. You can do it on my Dad also- I'll give you his
>service number and etc.
>I can guarantee you right now that in Dubya's case, you will
>be absolutely amazed at the stonewalling and BS you'll get
>in response.
>
>Peace,
>
>Jake
Sorry Jake, but I will say it again, you are Wrong!!! Here is why: Each ANG pilot must complete 2 years of active duty in the US Air Force before being reassigned to their home unit. Each candidate officer is sent to Officer Candidate School for at least two months and upon graduation, they then depart for US Air Force Pilot Training (UPT) to fly the T-37 and T-38 Talon for a combined total of 200 hours in 12 months of training. After that the new pilot goes to the specific aircraft Replacement Training Unit (RTU) for 8 months to train, check out and become combat ready in his unit's aircraft. That is what GW had to do before going back to Ellington AFB, TX to fly the F-102 Delta Dart. He then spent over 2 months at Ellington checking out with the unit to be certified as Mission Ready and capable of pulling alert for the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) and 1st Air Force. He maintained alert status for several years after that which meant flying at least twice a week and pulling weekend alert once a month. It ain't no cakewalk. Death also was something to contend with in fighter units. Each US Air Force and ANG fighter squadron in those times averaged one death a year. In addition his instructor and check pilot for Moody AFB in the T-38 wrote a letter to the Washington Post refuting all you allege. Additionally I had seen his discharge DD-214 statement of military service document. It states he finished his Guard tour honorably and was discharged as such. The only bone I have to pick with GW is he gave up being a Fighter Pilot to go into politics. How unmanly, "not". Finally, only active duty F-102 units were sent to Viet Nam, not Air Defense NORAD Air National Guard units. Why? Because President Johnson, a Democrat, did not want the ANG in Viet Nam as local military getting killed or captured would not go over well in Peoria.

No Sir, I am correct.
Dubya is and was a coward. His daddy bought him the flight posting to the ANG.
He isn't in Iraq, and he wasn't in the 'Nam either.
He wants to go to Iraq now, he can let me know- I'll suit up and go in with him ANYTIME- and NO BS.

>No Sir, I am correct.
>Dubya is and was a coward. His daddy bought him the flight
>posting to the ANG.
>He isn't in Iraq, and he wasn't in the 'Nam either.
>He wants to go to Iraq now, he can let me know- I'll suit up
>and go in with him ANYTIME- and NO BS.
>
>Jake

Jake, You refuse to listen or accept factual truth. Unless you can provide detailed irrefutable proof of your baseless allegations, you owe the President an apology. If you are wondering why I am so knowledgeable about GW, it is because I was part of the National Guard Bureau Inspector General and I know the unit he belonged to and how he became part of it and the entire details of his tour of service. So, you can believe me or continue down the path of delusion and hate that the Democratic Party is going. What will it be Jake?

>>No Sir, I am correct.
>>Dubya is and was a coward. His daddy bought him the flight
>>posting to the ANG.
>>He isn't in Iraq, and he wasn't in the 'Nam either.
>>He wants to go to Iraq now, he can let me know- I'll suit up
>>and go in with him ANYTIME- and NO BS.
>>
>>Jake
>
>Jake, You refuse to listen or accept factual truth. Unless
>you can provide detailed irrefutable proof of your baseless
>allegations, you owe the President an apology. If you are
>wondering why I am so knowledgeable about GW, it is because
>I was part of the National Guard Bureau Inspector General
>and I know the unit he belonged to and how he became part of
>it and the entire details of his tour of service. So, you
>can believe me or continue down the path of delusion and
>hate that the Democratic Party is going. What will it be
>Jake?

Wrong Col.
I am non-partisan, neither democrat or republican.
I owe Dubya NOTHING.
What I said was true. Please produce all revelant records and post them here or elswhere so that all may see how "wrong" I was. Otherwise you are blowing smoke sir- and I have had that stunt pulled on me a BUNCH of times already- it won't wash.

>>>No Sir, I am correct.
>>>Dubya is and was a coward. His daddy bought him the flight
>>>posting to the ANG.
>>>He isn't in Iraq, and he wasn't in the 'Nam either.
>>>He wants to go to Iraq now, he can let me know- I'll suit up
>>>and go in with him ANYTIME- and NO BS.
>>>
>>>Jake
>>
>>Jake, You refuse to listen or accept factual truth. Unless
>>you can provide detailed irrefutable proof of your baseless
>>allegations, you owe the President an apology. If you are
>>wondering why I am so knowledgeable about GW, it is because
>>I was part of the National Guard Bureau Inspector General
>>and I know the unit he belonged to and how he became part of
>>it and the entire details of his tour of service. So, you
>>can believe me or continue down the path of delusion and
>>hate that the Democratic Party is going. What will it be
>>Jake?
>
>Wrong Col.
>I am non-partisan, neither democrat or republican.
>I owe Dubya NOTHING.
>What I said was true. Please produce all revelant records
>and post them here or elswhere so that all may see how
>"wrong" I was. Otherwise you are blowing smoke sir- and I
>have had that stunt pulled on me a BUNCH of times already-
>it won't wash.
>
>JAK

No Jake, you have to provide the proof. I do not have to prove a negative, only you do. I have only stated what is available through open sources for anyone to read. You have only stated innuendo and spite. You see Jake, my veracity is not the issue, but yours is.

Jake,

I am with Tom . Put your money where your mouth is.

I'd like to see it too.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-13-03 AT 04:39 PM (CST)
 
Jake, this is not the place for this. This is a post about all the men and women who have served in all capacities from Lexington/Concord to the present day. No one really cares what the Cin C did or did not do. At least he was in uniform, more than the last pervert in the White House.
And hey, if'n ya don like it, freakin leave. Go to Cuba.

Jake,

I am NOT suposed to poke my Brazilian nose in your political affairs, but I think that, if I know America, it ain't gonna turn into pudding.

You are free to not suport the administration, and all you can do is raise your voice.

And you have the right to do it because it never turned into puding...

There's also something called "write your congressman".

Ifthe majority of the US voters is not happy, you wait and express your dissatifaction with your vote, and you change the Pres.

Not before, unless something really dirty surfaces.

Then you (the people)impeach it. It has been done before,I understand.

Anthing else will be a threat to the very freedom you have at the present moment.

Anyhow, this doesn't have to do with the heroism and the abnegatiyon of the Vets, it's them that I salute and honor!

Funny, when I was 5 years old I was going to Washington School, in Berkekly, CA, and when time came to that pledge, flag, etc, I told the techers:

I'm outta this. I'm Brazilian!

I never had to stay with the rest of the kids at that time, AND the principal made a point of having, on my birthday, a cake with the Brazilian Flag on the frosting, baked and eaten by the kids.

And at that day they had a special class about my country, so they got to know where that obnoxious kid that didn't want to put his hand in his heart and sing the "Oh say can you see" came from.

Ah, America the Beautiful!!

God bless you!

In Christ,

>Jake,
>
> You are free to not suport the administration,
> and all you can do is raise your voice.
>
>Ion

No, Ion, you are not free to 'not support the administration' in this country--although, on the basis of the price paid by generations of veterans, you should be.

But the spin-meisters (a generous label) cannot condone anyone--including veterans, who, most of all, should have the right to speak their minds, when those minds are in disagreement with the administration.

http://www.rense.com/general44/pulled.htm

The emperor simply cannot stand/allow anyone to point out he is wearing no clothes.

And thus the right to say so is curtailed.

Even for those who fought for the right to say it.

You need to differentate between and idealized, romantic, generally assumed version of what America is supposed to be about and what is really going on these days.

Sadly, the two are not the same.

Larry,

As the grandson of a World War II Army Field Artillery Battalion Commander, the son of a Navy Senior Chief Petty Officer and a career Navy Submarine Officer (the first submarine CO to make back to back combat war patrols since WWII for Operations Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom), thank you for your post.

Freedom requires risk and is not free.

Chuck Merkel, Captain (select) United States Navy

Hmm, let's see:

My Southern family believes deeply in the military...down to their socks.

My grandfather (my Mom's father) Joe: Sargeant US Army - WWII, Died in Africa chasing Rommel.
My Step-Grandfather (Dad's side) Monroe: Corporal US Army - WWII (with Patton).
My father: Master Chief - WWII - Pacific Theater
My Uncle Fred: Chief Petty Officer - WWII (subs at that) - Atlantic Theater.
My Uncle Ernie: Sergeant US Army - WWII
My Uncle Craton: 1st Lieutenant Marines - WWII, Died at Utah Beach
My Uncle Robb: Sergeant Marines - WWII
My Uncle John: Corporal US Army (an MP)- WWII
My Father-in-law: (don't know his rank) Seabees - WWII - Pacific Theater
My Brother Lloyd: Captain (surgeon) - Viet Nam
My Brother Eddie: Seaman 1st class - Viet Nam (kiddie cruise)
My Brother-in-law Tom: Sergeant US Marine Corp - Viet Nam (3 tours, Yikes)
My Brother-in-Law Stan: Gunner's Mate - Viet Nam
My Nephew, Tony, is in the Marines now. I don't know where he is...he can't tell us.
I missed Viet Nam by 7 months. I have a deep respect for vets, having grown up with a large number of them.

Veterans all---

Well,

Gee Randy, I think my family believed in the U.S. too!

6th Great Uncle Oliver Pollock: Major financier of the Revolutionary War, supplied more cash and goods than anyone else except the country of France. He also led a group of loaned Spanish soldiers in the south against british forces in Florida and along the Mississippi river. He also invented the Dollar sign to use to describe U.S. currency. He financed the Louis and Clark expidition. He is mentioned in the journals of Louis & Clark numerous times which are part of the library of Congress. He used over $350,000.00 of his personal funds to help finance the revolution and was only compensated by Congress the paltry sum of $92,000.00. He died a rather indigent sole in Pincyville MS on his son-inlaws ranch in 1829. In 1932 a historical society in New Orleans researched his life and discovered that HE was the single most UNHEARALDED HERO of the revolutionary war and financed putting a marker at his grave site along a lonly streach of country road in Mississippi.

Jim,

>>Gee Randy, I think my family believed in the U.S. too!<<

I think the comment was, they believed in the military.

My uncle: WW2 Navy
My Dad: WW2 Navy, PT Boats
Me: Navy 1960-1966, Submarines

A belated thanks to all the current and former Vets.

>Larry,
>
>As the grandson of a World War II Army Field Artillery
>Battalion Commander, the son of a Navy Senior Chief Petty
>Officer and a career Navy Submarine Officer (the first
>submarine CO to make back to back combat war patrols since
>WWII for Operations Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom),
>thank you for your post.
>
>Freedom requires risk and is not free.
>
>Chuck Merkel, Captain (select) United States Navy

Chuck, good to hear that you survived the second best job in the military, sub commander and god of the sea. The best job is Fighter Pilot and 4 ship Flight Lead. When are you coming back to N. VA? NVCL misses your august presence.

Some nice posts
Andrew Raney
Eldorado Canyon (Lybia)
Desert Storm

A Big AMEN from us back row Baptists in the far Northwest!

LAST EDITED ON Nov-13-03 AT 01:40 PM (CST)
 
Just for the record, I voted for, like, respect, support, and will vote again for George W. Bush. I know many men who were in the National Guard and Army reserves during the Viet Nam era. None of them were rich, but I suppose they were all worthless cowards, like "Dubwa". While I admire and respect all veterans that served honorably, I especially want to mention two. My old vet., my father, Sgt. Buford Jones, US Army, who was gravely wounded in France in 1944. My young vet., my son, PO3 Christopher Jones, US Navy 1992 --- 1996.

Don Jones, USAF 1966 --- 1970 Heck I to am a draft dodger, I joined the Air Force to keep from being drafted.

Regardless of the political or personal views of the leadership, I didn't vote for Dubya, I salute the men and women of the US Armed Services. Particularly now that they are all volunteers. I served in the USAF for 4 years 1956 - 1960 rather than be drafted and have to walk. I was a cryptographic analyist in AFSS (Intelligence) and watched the beginning of the Viet Nam war through reading the Top Secret communications of troop movements and our increasing involvement. I learned to Fly CL in Tripoli North Africa and wouldn't trade my service and travels for anything. California, Germany, North Africa, Crete Greece, and San Antonio.

May God Bless and Keep our Service Men and Women from Harm.

One thing I'd like to add, any organization, group, fellowship, or gathering unless gathered for the said purpose should avoid discussing politics, religion, and sexual conquests.

I know my note is not timely, but I celebrated Veteran's Day in a more traditional way, and knew when I started reading this thread that those with strong feelings one way or the other could not help but turn this intended tribute to Our Service Men into a political diatribe.

Amen!

>A Big AMEN from us back row
>Baptists in the far Northwest!

Make iy my AMEN, Old Sourdough!

I read White Fangs, by Jack London when I was 12 years old, so I'm hip to your nickname.

The REAL Alaskans didn;t use leavening, they'd tuck the dough inder their blankets and let it go sour.

The "tourists" were the ones that used leavening.

Is it so?

God bless you!

In Christ,

Larry,

Thanks for the post. I served in the MOARNG Military Police, by the grace of God during peace time. I have ancestors who have served our country dating back before the Civil War. One of my ancestors is listed on the memorial at the Alamo, William Mills. My dad, James Mills Sr. served in the Navy during the mid 60's. My uncle, Phillip Mills served in the Air Force in the early 70's. My late grandfather Pete Branum was a highly decorated Commando (WW II) who fought on both the Italian and German front (parachuted into Normandy). The day after Veterans Day this year we lost my grandfather, Murry Mills who served in the Pacific theater in the Army. Both of my grandfathers paid a high price as the nightmares continued for the remainder of the time here.

Thank you to all veterans who have served and sacraficed. I firmly believe that we owe each of them a debt of gratitude.

After reading some of the threads I want to thank Lt. Col. Tom McClain for the stand you took. I was in service under our last president and saw first hand how the military was hurt during that administration. God Bless President Bush and all our leaders. Pray for our service men and women.

James

Dear James,

Thanks for the kind words. Now I need to follow through on Larry's original prayers: I wish to thank my Grandfather, Marvin Hayes, who was a doughboy in WWI and later served again as a Navy Petty Officer through WWII. I want to thank my father, Henry McClain, who enlisted in the Army right after Pearl and served for 3.5 years in the South Pacific in Australia, New Zealand, Biak Island, New Guinea, New Caledonia and finished in Manila as the Atomic Bomb was dropped. I wish to thank a WWI Major, President Harry S. Truman, for having the courage to use the Atom Bomb and saving my father's life as well as countless other GIs in the Pacific. I want to thank my older brother, John McClain, for serving in Viet Nam during the Tet Offensive and introducing the Air Force Academy to me. You see my big brother got me to join up and become a fighter pilot and I met my bride of 28 years in Colorado Springs during my cadet years. Finally, I want to thank all of the unselfish Vets that served in thick and thin. The nation is better for what you did.

God Bless,

One thing we must all remember, we served to allow all of us to speak freely, right or wrong, it is the best system in the world.
I have a saying "TANSBAT TWNS" ?
There are none so blind as those that will not see.

Any need to go furthur? not really.

DICK BYRON

>Dear James,
>
>Thanks for the kind words. Now I need to follow through on
>Larry's original prayers: I wish to thank my Grandfather,
>Marvin Hayes, who was a doughboy in WWI and later served
>again as a Navy Petty Officer through WWII. I want to thank
>my father, Henry McClain, who enlisted in the Army right
>after Pearl and served for 3.5 years in the South Pacific in
>Australia, New Zealand, Biak Island, New Guinea, New
>Caledonia and finished in Manila as the Atomic Bomb was
>dropped. I wish to thank a WWI Major, President Harry S.
>Truman, for having the courage to use the Atom Bomb and
>saving my father's life as well as countless other GIs in
>the Pacific. I want to thank my older brother, John
>McClain, for serving in Viet Nam during the Tet Offensive
>and introducing the Air Force Academy to me. You see my big
>brother got me to join up and become a fighter pilot and I
>met my bride of 28 years in Colorado Springs during my cadet
>years. Finally, I want to thank all of the unselfish Vets
>that served in thick and thin. The nation is better for
>what you did.
>
>God Bless,

Tom, good posting - I agree heartily - Joe Owen, Captain, USAF '72 - '78

Joe Owen