More ??? on beginner bottoms

Gentlemen:

Going into my first ever P?A contest in a couple weeks. I have another question on pattern bottoms for beginners.

I cant fly all of my figures with consistent 5-6' bottoms--but I can do some of them that way. For example, straight and level and wingover entry is solid at 5-6' but wing over exit is always high (safe) maybe 10-12' Insides are pretty ok at 5-6 but inverted and outsides I take back up to 10-12. Same with the horizontal eights.

My question is this: Is it better from a scoring perspective to set a consistent bottom height--say 10-12', then make everything that way, or is it ok to do the wingover etc with low entries and a high exit?? Or different for each figure?

Thanks

Good question. I fly the beginner pattern the same way you do. WO with high pullouts, and outsides high. I was reading the rule book and it does say in the judges section that three loops done the same (high) should be scored higher than a set with one that is lower than the other 2 even though the "low" one is at 1.5 meters (my interpetation). Apparently consistancy should score higher than placement.

I always fly my TO and level laps at the required altitude. Why give up easy points?

Although bottoms higher than called for are errors, I would tend to judge them as a lower magniture of error than say doing the loops in 3 different places. I have seen even the best miss on the 5' pullouts on reverse wingovers and outside portions of the square eights. It just takes extreme familiarity with the plane and lots and lots of practice to get all the 5' bottoms consistant! One thing that helps on getting the outside portions of squares at the 5' level is practicing outside triangles and remembering that the thing out there on the end of the lines is a "TOY AIRPLANE" to 99% of the public, and there's no ones life at stake if you should miss the 5' level and pull out at say 3'.

>
>there's no ones life at
>stake if you should miss
>the 5' level and pull
>out at say 3'.
>
>Jim Pollock

Its the negative 3 foot bottom that gets me! :-o)

>
>Its the negative 3 foot bottom
>that gets me! :-o)
>

It's gotten me more than once also...

Tim,

I also know all too well about the -3 foot bottoms, I just wanted to keep my posting as a positive one, not negative. No one needs negatives, especially bottoms to manuvers!

Good question. I fly the beginner pattern the same way you do. WO with high pullouts, and outsides high. I was reading the rule book and it does say in the judges section that three loops done the same (high) should be scored higher than a set with one that is lower than the other 2 even though the "low" one is at 1.5 meters (my interpetation). Apparently consistancy should score higher than placement.

I always fly my TO and level laps at the required altitude. Why give up easy points?

>Gentlemen:
>
>Going into my first ever P?A
>contest in a couple weeks.
> I have another question
>on pattern bottoms for beginners.
>
>
>I cant fly all of my
>figures with consistent 5-6' bottoms--but
>I can do some of
>them that way. For
>example, straight and level and
>wingover entry is solid at
>5-6' but wing over
>exit is always high (safe)
> maybe 10-12' Insides
>are pretty ok at 5-6
>but inverted and outsides I
>take back up to 10-12.
> Same with the horizontal
>eights.
>
>My question is this: Is
>it better from a scoring
>perspective to set a consistent
>bottom height--say 10-12', then make
>everything that way, or is
>it ok to do the
>wingover etc with low entries
>and a high exit??
>Or different for each figure?

It's a matter of opinion, but I think you should strive to make each maneuver as good as possible, even if they aren't the same. S0 hit 5' on the maneuvers you can, and if you have to raise some of them up, then so be it. Remember, despite the fast that it's nice to make the whole thing flow, the judges are supposed to be judging each individual maneuver on it's merits.

I am with Brett and Jim on this one. We don't know what the judges are doing, but consistency in putting the loops (or squares, or eights, or whatever) on top of one another IS important. If you fly high but make the maneuvers correct and consistent they shouldn't knock you too much.

If you can take off and do your level flight at 6 feet, do it. If you can do the inside loops from that height (and keep them consistent) do it. What is really bad is starting at 6 feet and then bringing the pullouts and next loops higher.

Keep them consistent at whatever height you are comfortable. You don't get points for crashing or knocking the rudder off. You do get points for doing all of the maneuvers (no matter how bad) and finishing the pattern.

You also feel better bringing your airplane home from the contest in one piece.

Oh, yes, one thing we often overlook: At a contest we are flying in unfamiliar territory (to us) with different backgrounds, etc. This will often throw even an experienced flyer off. Again, I would much rather see you err being a little too high, than a "little" too low.

Curt
Here's something that Windy U taught me many years ago to get the wing over pullout lower.As the plane comes down for the first corner reach out as far as you can and this will slow the corner
and the plane will pull out lower. I think it slows the reflexes down some how and it does work. It will work on the hourglass last corner also.

I fly advanced that way. I do know that a whole bunch of fairly good flyers flunk level flight.

Try to begin everything at 4-6 feet..... by accident, you'll end up there! As you pull your bottoms down to 4-6 feet, you should find that the maneuvers are easier to do, too.

Carlos Serra has long advocated spending more time "praticing" level flight... when you "miss" a needle seeting or the pattern is over and you stilll have fuel.

Good Luck!

See Ya

Your first concern as a Beginner is to appear organized and finish the pattern. Fly each maneuver as well as you can. Each maneuver is pointed individually. What may happen with some judges is that, if you do things at different heights, they notice the contrast more than you would like them to.

If I were a really good flyer, I'd do 3 ft bottoms, level flight and inverted flight on the first flight to see if the judges would buy it. If my score was knocked down because of low flying, then I'd put the second flight up where it belongs. I had a world champion pull this on me. I noted on his score card that he was flying too low. His second flight was right on the money and he won the contest.

Level flight between maneuvers is not judged, but it makes a good impression if the level laps are flown just as carefully as the maneuvers.

I'm more experienced as a judge than a contest stunt flier. Even on a pretty flat flying circle, a non-flat background will mess you up when you try to fly level, especially inverted. Scott and I noticed this at C.O.L.D. a couple weeks ago. Most fliers had problems getting level correct in one area of the circle, due to the background. I find the background there messes me up...it is desert, not flat and very busy, yet with no useful landmarks like a couple of telephone poles would be, if they were in the right spots. As for your first contest, be sure you do the tricks correctly (outsides to your left from the insides), etc, so that you get the pattern points. If you do all the tricks and correct enough that you get pattern points, you've done about all you should worry about. Concentrate on getting maximum points on takeoff and landing. It looks to me like many land too slowly, and balloon in. For Nils' grass field, it seems to work best to grease it in kinda fast, especially because it's a bit breezy at times and the air is thin. Also make sure you are ready for the attempts and can get the engine started and adjusted quickly. Using a tach would help a lot, and make sure you don't over-run. Good luck, Steve

Pick a point in space, focus on that, and fly the airplane around it. Don't concentrate on the airplane, focus on where you want it to go around your reference point.
Above all, RELAX; don't give a darn about what anyone else in the world thinks of your pattern outside yourself. Unless one of the judges REALLY hates your internal windings, you will always be your own worst critic.
In other words, control yourself, the airplane, and the immediate situation (pattern) first, all else will sort itself out in the end.
The bit on flying "around a point" was a tip from one of the Great Masters of C/L PA to me and I still appreciate his input, even if I will never fly competition PA.

Thanks For all the input guys. I like the idea of isolated judging of each seperate figure. I'll do what I can do, and as well as I can. And It'll be fun!

By the way, it sounds like there is a time limit for beginner--what is it?

Contests I've been involved in, it's always been 8 minutes same as the other skill classes. You don't need anywhere near that much time if you've got your act together and don't have to fiddle with your engine. This is a question you ask at the pilots meeting before the contest. On amount of fuel, I like to have about 10 laps worth after finishing the pattern. If I have any problem with the engine, I call an attempt and get off the circle to go see what is wrong.

Was at an area contest yesterday and had a long discussion on this subject with an experienced judge. Our conclusion (and the way HE judges) is that three identical loops with a high bottom should still get a downgrade, but less of one than three mis-matched loops with 5' bottoms. He feels that shape, placement, and consistency are all more inportant than the bottoms, at least in the lower classes. His comment about beginner pattern was telling: "Give me a perfect T/O, level flight and landing and at least attempt all the other maneuvers, and you'll probably win." Makes sense to me. However, this may vary with the individual judge.

Attempting all the maneuvers doesn't get you the pattern points, as I found out at C.O.L.D. 2000. The book says you have to do them correctly, which means the inside loops first, outsides to the correct side of the insides, etc, as well as in the correct order. I have seen fliers of all classes do excellent takeoffs and landings, and judges just DON'T give 40 points for ANYTHING. Your friendly judge any different? Doubt it. Has anybody here ever gotten more than 35 points for any single maneuver? Beyond that is the question about whether the judges award equal points to Beginners for maneuvers that are equal to Experts. I would hope so, and try to when I judge, but have not judged Expert. I tend to not downgrade for the lateral wobbly effect of single wheel gears on Skyrays. My thought is that (for Beginner and Intermediate) it's the pilot input I want to judge, not the aircraft's shortcomings. A Beginner or Intermediate flier should not have to fly a design capable of winning the NATS or WC. Steve

>judges just DON'T give 40
>points for ANYTHING. Your friendly
>judge any different? Doubt it.
>Has anybody here ever gotten
>more than 35 points for
>any single maneuver?

Yes, in my limited experience, I have seen this a number of times. In fact, a person scoring a 560, for instance, would need about 34.5 average per maneuver.

Take offs, landings, wingovers are some of the easiest to score very high on. (And if you blow these, you probably set yourself up for a very low score.)

Beyond that
>is the question about whether
>the judges award equal points
>to Beginners for maneuvers that
>are equal to Experts. I
>would hope so, and try
>to when I judge,

Interestingly I have been to several contests where the Intermediate flyers were actually being awarded higher scores than Expert. Now the judges may have been consistent among the contestants (we would hope) but they were scoring WAY too high.

but
>I tend to not downgrade for
>the lateral wobbly effect of
>single wheel gears on Skyrays.
>My thought is that (for
>Beginner and Intermediate) it's the
>pilot input I want to
>judge, not the aircraft's shortcomings.

Here I disagree. We still need to judge the flight. If the beginner or Intermediate flyer has a plane incapable of flying a maneuver properly he should get downgraded for what he flew, not how he moved the handle in intending to fly the maneuver. By the same token, however, a properly built and trimmed plane like a Twister is capable of flying a 550 pattern and the beginner or Intermediate does not need to feel that he needs the latest "Belchfire Pipe" in order to compete. Just build a good, simple plane and fly.

>A Beginner or Intermediate flier
>should not have to fly
>a design capable of winning
>the NATS or WC. Steve

Maybe not a concourse or front row finish, but, remember, it wasn't that many years ago that a Nobler won the World Championships and classic era ships are still, occasionally, making the "top 20" at the Nats. A Beginner or Intermediate can still (and should) build a simple, but capable plane, and then learn to fly it. If he builds a poorly designed, poorly built, or poorly trimmed plane, he will continue to fly a poorly flown pattern and be judged accordingly. Fly a good, capable (but simple) ship well, and he should be judged accordingly as well.

I have seen
>fliers of all classes do
>excellent takeoffs and landings, and
>judges just DON'T give 40
>points for ANYTHING. Your friendly
>judge any different? Doubt it.

Steve, your point is well taken. But, all I meant to suggest is that in a well presented Beginner pattern, this particular judge feels that the bottoms are somewhat lower on his personal totem pole of importance. He still downgrades for high bottoms, but the aforementioned attractive pattern will draw a higher total score than an otherwise poor pattern with perfect bottom height. Just a practical matter of doing the math.

For a beginner, anything higher than 3" below ground level is too high (missing the ground is for the Intermediates!).

Tongue firmly in cheek, and speaking as a DEFINITE beginner,

Steve,

Short answer, yes. The one I am most proud of is the 37 points that I received from Bob Baron at the 1998 Atlanta fall contest for my hourglass.