Snaggletooth 2 progress

Right now I'd rather play with my computer than build a tank.

Snaggletooth is a 46 size airplane with 550sqs. Hopefully, it will be "killer" with a modern rear exhaust 65.

Can't honestly say I've overpowered one yet.

Al,

I still see Don Shultz once or twice a year, although he hasn't flown CL Stunt for many years.

At least in my mind, his horizontal 8s were the best, and I am trying to emulate what he appeared to do so easily. Just cannot get the timing right going up into second loop, although it is getting easier coming back into third loop.

Anyway, I'm gonna call him tonight and tease him with your latest stuff.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-12-03 AT 04:46 PM (CST)
 
Dan,
Don and I used to hang out whenever I had a Seattle layover. This was before he went to work for Boeing. He did a number of drawings for my Mustang article "Evolution...". some were never used in the various publications which published the article. Maybe I'll put a couple here. Needless to say, the ones which weren't used were somewhat not "politically correct". Don also did a number of drawings of my Bearcat and Sea Furys.

Al,

what .65 is that?

Are you gonna pipe it?

God bless you!

In Christ,

LAST EDITED ON Nov-12-03 AT 08:53 PM (CST)
 
Ion,

I have both Ro-Jett and PA 65's. Not everyone believes pipes are the way to go. It should be obvious there is no place to put a pipe on this design. I don't like the character of pipe engine runs for semi-scale airplanes, and that doesn't mean that I think that well designed semi-scale airplanes are necessairly any less competitive than piped lawn darts. It is a false perception that all serious competition fliers use piped stunt ships. There are other configurations which run as well, maybe better. Paul Walker just placed first on our FAI Team without a pipe. The choices for all out competition aren't that simple.

Al;

Do you have any projection on final weight? Is the header shown one of Richards mufflers? After looking at your planes I want to throw up when I look at mine, bet I'm not alone.

>Ion,
>
>I have both Ro-Jett and PA 65's. Not everyone believes
>pipes are the way to go. It should be obvious there is no
>place to put a pipe on this design. I don't like the
>character of pipe engine runs for semi-scale airplanes, and
>that doesn't mean that I think that well designed semi-scale
>airplanes are necessairly any less competitive than piped
>lawn darts. It is a false perception that all serious
>competition fliers use piped stunt ships. There are other
>configurations which run as well, maybe better. Paul Walker
>just placed first on our FAI Team without a pipe. The
>choices for all out competition aren't that simple.
>
>Al

Sorry Al, but Billy won the Team Trials, with a piped PA 61.

and won the year before and the year before etc...

>
>and won the year before and the year before etc...

With a Semi-Scale P-47...

I stand corrected.

I don't like the
>character of pipe engine runs for semi-scale airplanes, and
>that doesn't mean that I think that well designed semi-scale
>airplanes are necessairly any less competitive than piped
>lawn darts. It is a false perception that all serious
>competition fliers use piped stunt ships.

There is Todd Lee. He is VERY SERIOUS. He also said he was ready for a change (whatever that turns out to be). It would not shock me if he turned up with a piped plane. I don't think he is a fan though, for whatever reason.

I started trying to figure out the pipe setup, and was a miserable failure. It was really no fault of the engine (or specifically the CF tube that some so passionately detest). My failure was due to my own ignorance. In fact, I went on to sell that engine to Doug who used it win Rookie of the Year the next year (and win 5th).

Now I know more about pipes than I need to know. I run a 4 cycle... isn't this fun?

OK, I'll admit that all of my ideas are not necessarily original.

Heavens to Murgatroid! Oh, wait... sorry, that was Snagglepuss...

Tim

'zilla,

I was never a big pipe fan, though I used them for several seasons. No knock to pipes. Others use them to great success. I have just never been much of a fiddler when it comes to engine runs and it seems I was endlessly fiddling with the pipe setup. Again, It's probably just my impatience. For me, the 4-stroke was a godsend. I had very little trouble setting it up and the engine is seldom the problem now (though a lot of other things are).

LAST EDITED ON Nov-17-03 AT 03:18 PM (CST)
 
Setup on a 4s is pretty much unchangeable besides venturi sizes and props. So that works out great for the fiddler looking to quit fiddiling...

But since you cant fiddle with it, as much as a 2s, getting it right with props means more and more testing with props to find the right one instead of getting the motor work with the prop you have on hand. In either case fiddling will always be there. Brad fiddles with his 4s and the props way more tahn I fiddle with my 65. His fiddles take alot less time though...mine are always more labor intensive.

I must add Brad's fiddling and testing is because he is one of the first ones to really explore and workout the 4s. Therefore he must fiddle to no end to try every possible setup to see the results and track progress. Plus he loves fiddling just like the rest of us... He just likes to fiddle with 4s where others like to fiddle with 2s...

I am pressuring him now to move the motor combo to a new plane. He has worked this current rig to death. It is now time try all these tests on another rig and see if you get the same results...

Oh, there's plenty of fiddling you can do if you're inclined. I did quite a lot when I first started using these. And the sort of fiddling possible is amazing. I mean, grinding cams, valve lift, valve size, crank experiments, compression...the list is longer than a 2 stroke. But it doesn't need as much fiddling. Finding the right prop for it is important, but I've gotten decent flights with whatever Zinger was on hand. In some ways, 4 strokes tend to be like Apple Macs. It's either easy or impossible.

In either case fiddling will
>always be there. Brad fiddles with his 4s and the props way
>more tahn I fiddle with my 65. His fiddles take alot less
>time though...mine are always more labor intensive.
>
>I must add Brad's fiddling and testing is because he is one
>of the first ones to really explore and workout the 4s.

Yes, yes...

Now think how much you would fiddle if you did not have Bob G. to take a nod from. Bob takes his nods from Billy W. and Billy makes the pipes for the guy who makes the engine (Randy Smith)! Tell me that isn't a convenient communication chain.

I think considering the circumstances, I fiddle almost none at all. Only really since the Nats. Before that I flew on one prop for a year, switched props and flew on that one for a year. I never even really changed venturis, but I did spike my fuel on the fly.

The fiddling is only a recent phenomenon...

>Now think how much you would fiddle if you did not have Bob
>G. to take a nod from. Bob takes his nods from Billy W. and
>Billy makes the pipes for the guy who makes the engine
>(Randy Smith)! Tell me that isn't a convenient
>communication chain.

Yeah there is alot of communication between us. But what Billy is doing is not anything like we are doing. Except for compression. The rest is different from what I am doing. He runs a whole different setup. I dont have access to his stuff so persuing that would be futile. Without Bob I know I would have to fiddle more. But I also know He goes down roads I dont because I have found a spot I like and I am sticking to it and watching until some one else gets what I would view as a better rig. I will try new things all the time but mess with what works??? Why?

>
>I think considering the circumstances, I fiddle almost none
>at all. Only really since the Nats. Before that I flew on
>one prop for a year, switched props and flew on that one for
>a year. I never even really changed venturis, but I did
>spike my fuel on the fly.
>
>The fiddling is only a recent phenomenon...

I have seen SP upside down getting work often just as you have seen big bear getting the same treatment. I also remember constant fiddling and complaining about the other rig prior to the nats. Not much fiddling with the motor, I guess, but with everything else you could think of. Also that article you wrote about 4s for stunt...VERY GOOD ARTICLE...proves you fiddle alot. You had to work your rear off to get that info. People, myself included, tend to see fiddling as a bad thing. As long as it is productive fiddling is good.

We are all fiddlers. It is when you fiddle with it and you just cant get it working when it becomes tiresome and frustrating and people say wow he sure does mess with his rig all the time. As long a you fiddle with good results you wont see it as fiddeling but as needed steps to get it all working.

Not fiddling in my mind would be flip and fly from day to day. And that almost never happens. Unless it is the same rig as always and all the possibilities have been tried and it is practice time.

Doug and 'zilla,

I think you have made some good points. And in all honesty, a lot of the "fiddling" level depends on the state of the plane. What I mean is, when a plane is new, the fiddling factor goes up exponetially. Once the right elements are found (for that plane), the fiddling lessens. What I've noticed with the 4 stroke is, once that initial fiddling to get a new plane "right" is over, the fiddling (Or, as I like to use the tecnical term - messing) drops precipitously. Once it's pretty much dialed in, I probably don't touch the engine much for the remainder of the season. It's dialed in.

Conversely, when I was using pipe engines exclusively, The "dialing in" was an ongoing process. Every contest it was fly the plane to see where it is, adjust, fly, adjust until is was set for the weekend and I hoped the weather didn'nt change radically. Now, I think this is largely just me. I've seen Brett fly his Infinity and he does very little diddling. Ted seems to mess with his a bit more, but it's relative. He's never really "out" much and it's a matter of getting that last little bit of the available performance. So I suspect I just didn't have a great enough understanding of the system...or just had lousy instincts.

None if this is any reflection on the worth of one system over the other. I think it mostly comes down to personal taste and what you like to work with. I don't miss that angry bee hive sound and I really like the sound of 4 strokes so maybe that's it. <grin>

>Now think how much you would fiddle if you did not have Bob
>G. to take a nod from. Bob takes his nods from Billy W. and
>Billy makes the pipes for the guy who makes the engine
>(Randy Smith)! Tell me that isn't a convenient
>communication chain.

I must tell you that I RESENT that statement.

I guess it looks to you as though I cant think for myself.

Yes I take some hints from Bob but if I did all that was said do you honestly think I would fly 5.9 laps and have Chevy emblems on the side of my plane, please..?? You were even trying to talk me into speeding up some after that nats. You see how well that worked. We all take hints and tips from eveyone else you have gotten many on your pattern from me! Heck where would you be without the Pat Johnston manifold? Not on a 4s I bet.

Yes your statement there has really heated me up a bit. And I am sure we could go back and forth for a bit but I see no more point in it. I just wanted you to know...

>>Now think how much you would fiddle if you did not have Bob
>>G. to take a nod from. Bob takes his nods from Billy W. and
>>Billy makes the pipes for the guy who makes the engine
>>(Randy Smith)! Tell me that isn't a convenient
>>communication chain.
>
>
>I must tell you that I RESENT that statement.

It is not a bad thing to have people to help. That's all I meant.

Al,
As usual the workmanship looks simply outstanding!
The "new" rear exhaust 61-65 should really be the ticket on this one.
What type of muffler are you planning to use? If you posted that earlier, I missed it.
Thanks for th "peek" at your work, there seems to be something I pick up on each time.
Bill Little <><

>Right now I'd rather play with my computer than build a
>tank.
>
>Snaggletooth is a 46 size airplane with 550sqs. Hopefully,
>it will be "killer" with a modern rear exhaust 65.
>
>Can't honestly say I've overpowered one yet.
>
>Al

Al, what is your correct email address?

"I don't know about this tuned pipe business. I practiced on that thing until my lips turned blue, and I still can't play a stinkin note."
"Homer J. Simpson"