Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 56 of 56 known posts recovered
Is there a particular hotel PAMPA members stay? I heard there is a PAMPA rate/hotel deal of some sort. Does it apply to WC?
Any tips, suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Steven Yampolsky 
Dont worry about the mule going blind 'til you get the cart loaded!
You see, I've never been to Muncie. As a matter of fact I've never heard of this place until this pas winter. Amaizingly enough, expedia.com lists TONNS of hotels in Muncie. Is it some kind of conference capital or something?
Steven Yampolsky
... and learning how to drive only 60mph
... and how to live with only 2 pedals
... and ... and ... and ...
... and especially how to get visa 
Steven Yampolsky
Well.........They'll give a Credit Card to anyone....Won't they!!!
Hope things work out and I get a chance to me you there.
For folks in the US attempting to go, book soon or it might be too late if you want to stay in Muncie. I booked on Aug 30th! Anderson is only about 20 miles away and should have space. Book soon!
If you need local support somehow, please don't hesitate to ask
(someone to phone bureaucrats and yell at them, vouch for you, etc).
Preston
TED FANCHER
Much to our displeasure, the hot tip seems to involve first going to Canada, as they will literally let ANYBODY into that country.
Tell 'em you have no papers. They'll tell you, "No problem!"
Tell 'em you have no money. They'll tell you, "Here's some!"
Then come on down to Muncie. You'll be in-country and you'll have money to spend.
Dan
Yeah, well they let me in every time you guys have a contest. I've even been known to stay overnight without problems, even if I can't read the French labels on the cereal boxes at Chris and Dragon Lady's home.
And I always seem to go home with more money than I had coming in. Go figure...
Dan
My real concern is getting the models into the US, or even onboard an aircraft to the US. This is bare models, no fuel, batteries or fluids.
Even being in the airline business, and with high level security passes, I can't guarantee an easy time of it - flying to contests, I always have the appropriate pages from the ICAO Dangerous Goods manual - but the security guys have the last say. I can relate a number of horror (and funny) stories on the subject.
Even the AMA doesn't carry much (if any) weight with the airlines - I'm sure that Bill Lee is adressing the issue, but it has all the hallmarks of a Team Managers nightmare.
Any and all ideas very gratefully recieved!
Cheers,
Dave Simons - Oz T/M elect.
Scotty, the World Controline Champs will be in Muncie, Indiana, a week or so before the NATS. I think they announced it last June or so. Check the AMA website for details. By the way, about every other State in the central US has a city or town named "Muncie" (be sure to go to the correct one). Too bad they aren't having the WC at Albany, huh? Steve
PS: A report on how the junior Mr. Burger is doing in Burns, Oregon would be interesting.
WHO???
Igor's son is going to heigh skool in Burns. He and his buddy decided to leave their Slavic/English Dictionaries home, to make it more fun and challenging! Hahahahahaha! How funny is that? Steve
Veeeeery well. He did not know basics of C/L flying so he decided to order ARF Flite Streak and all recommended accessories. He got all, just the model is little bit different than he expected (look at the picture)
But now is everything solved and he says that the building is easy. Well I believe him – building of ARFs is really easy, so I hope he will fly early – if weather in Burns allows, I heard it is quite cold there for him.
igor
StevePS: The Flite Streak looks a bit odd!
Hey, you guys could probably make a killing with a "rent a F2B" service!
Thanks again,
Dave
SteveYep, the drive doesn't seem too inviting, dodging elk at night would make a novel change from dodging kangaroos, & they would do as much damage i'm sure - I can imagine the conversation with Mr. Avis ..."now, about that chevvy I rented yesterday". However, shipping models ahead is not really desirable as it would eliminate 2 practice sessions and, in F2A we have only 4 chances to practice before July.
Also, we are scared that if someone didn't like the models, they would simply be confiscated & we wouldn't be there to bail them out.
How about flying to Toronto & driving? I have 2 contacts at Air Canada.
I'm not concerned about a stunter, didn't make the team, but others are, & I for one are not interested in flying in the US nats.
hey, I figured that if we went via Seattle, we could catch up - it would only be 21 years since you darkened my doorstep!
Cheers, Dave
Re the rent an F2B idea. Great, except... There is just the little matter of BOM if the visitors would like to play with their US cousins at the Nats.
That's what Tom Dixon's letter in Stunt News was all about.
Dave and Geoff: For clarification we do have a builder of the model rule at our Nats. The worlds is a different story, but any who wish to enter our Nats will have to enter with a model they have constructed themselves. Dixon's letter was way off base, but PAMPA's policy is to publish anything and they did.
The facts are, there was a mail-in vote taken of the competitors from the last couple of years and the vote was not to drop the builder of the model rule. There was another vote taken at the pilot's meeting at the NATS and it was again affirmed that they not drop the builder of the model rule. There was also a rules proposal submitted to drop it from our rules and that didn't fly.
I am saying this just so people don't get all pumped up again. Dixon is trying to enlist all those who don't fly at our Nats to try to vote to get it changed. But we have a Democracy. We voted. That should be it. We don't revote for our president, and we don't revote for this.
And because of all of the furror this issue has caused in the past, I consider it done and don't care to discuss it any further on this forum. You guys are OK, but I will delete any further posts that make any attempt to do so.
Personally, I couldn't be bothered transporting a model halfway across the world & back, to start with a 20 point handicap.
I haven't managed to read the article yet, but it must be pretty interesting to cause such a reaction.
Cheers, Dave
That is good idea. May be I have another one. Guys here around like to sale models after WC to get back some of inversted money. I am sure there will be several models for sale, but it could be some spare model more for sale before should not be a problem also
igor
I might add - completely coincidentally to the other branch of this thread I'm sure - Tom Dixon was offering just such a "service" for the US Team Trials - rent an airplane/engine/etc. to avoid having to figure out how to get the your own airplane to Muncie. No takers, as far as I could tell. I would guess that it might be possible for the W/C, too.
Brett
Steven Yampolsky
1) There's a Super 8, and one or two other motels south of the flying field, right off I-65.
2) There's a Howard Johnson's on the south side of town, about 5 minutes from the flying site. This one tends to have a lot of Nats tenants. Nearby are two mom and pop places for the budget minded (including the Hilltop Motel, where I often used to stay).
3) There's the Radisson Hotel Roberts, downtown. This one is something out of a gangster movie - HUGE lobby, brass doorknobs, high ceilings, the works.. Lots of people stay there for the Nats, too, since it's fairly close to the site, and is a full service hotel (not a motel).
4) There is a huge cluster of motels on the north west side of Muncie, near the Ball State campus (finally, you know why there are tons of motels in Muncie). These are a good 20-25 minutes away from the field. West on Memorial, north on the highway, west on McGalliard, and keep going.. ^_^;;
5) Anderson's a good 1/2 hour away, but there are a ton of motels there, as well.
6) To the north, there's Fort Wayne, and I think one or two other sizeable towns that might have motels.
Jim mentioned that AMA is geared up toward providing official invitations to the W/Cs/AMA Nationals and that just such a document can help immensely when applying for a visa.
He also mentioned that getting a visa can take up to six months. As I have no real need for such a thing, I cannot verify. Still, what with some fairly nasty people out there complicating our lives with bomb threats and such, it would seem a good idea to get in line early.
The name of Dave Simons came up in our conversation, and I related to Booker that Dave thought I was joking when describing that one need not have any money or *any papers whatsoever* in order to gain entry into Canada.
Dave, Jim and I think it hilariously funny that you thought I was joking...!!!
Your ABC Fox 35 parts will be in Jim's hands in a couple days. Thanks.
Dan
Finally, some good news from Canada. Thanks for the information, allthough I suppose it should be counted as pure luck that I am allowed entry into Canada at all.
Hey, Booker's flying his ARF Nobler. Likes it, too! How is your own Nobler coming along? You know how much glee it gives me to see you Speed Guys lifting your skirts and coming over to the Stunt circle.
Dan
I've just emailed MAAA yesterday declining my spot on the Aussie team.
It wasn't and easy decision to make. In fact something that I've been mulling over for the last 3 months.
The fact that I've only been home for 3 weeks in the last 3 months and my work schedule looking similar for next year was one of the main reasons. I think I'll re-name my profession to "professional airline passenger". The time that my job is allowing me to be at home is more importantly devoted to being a world champion husband and father. Maybe next time........
I wish everyone in our team, and others goood luck at the WC's.
BRI
I hope the weather isn't too bad as I've decided to go the camping route. Peabody and several others have done this for years, I believe. I understand that there are some facilities at the Nat's site for campers, but it seems to me that I've heard reports of commercial camping sites nearby. Does anyone have good information?
I've already purchased a huge 3 room tent as well as other camping supplies to make it comfortable. Since I enjoy camping, the equipment will also serve in other ways,both before and after the events.
Showers seem to be the biggest problem, though there are special camping structures now available for that purpose. Without such facilities, it's probably good that the judges will be standing up wind... ( for Danny)
Whoa, whoa, whoa!
I was represented in this vote; Howard Rush was representing me and the rest of District 11. Unless I am mistaken, all District Directors or their designated proxies voted on this issue.
A vote was not asked for from visting competitors, potential or otherwise, as it is not their place to vote on such matters. It is the US Nationals, after all. I don't think the French equivalent to AMA would be open to having me vote on the rules of conduct to be used at their national championships any more than we ask them what they think of the AMA flight-time limit of 8 minutes versus FAI's 7-minute rule.
I believe most of the displeasure with Dixon's position is that we have already settled the issue via established--and quite well known to Tom--procedures which he is now trying to overturn. Not good form, to say the least.
Dan
I am just having a little difficulty getting my head around why this is such a big deal - it's only a one-off after all, or maybe it would be seen as the "thin edge of the wedge"?
My other problem is why is it considered to be OK that very few of the people that are actually affected, meaning visitors, have any input.The effect is not trivial, a trip like this is expensive in all kinds of commodities.
As for comparisons with other countries, it is difficult to imagine how a similar situation could arise, and maybe voting is the wrong term, but were opinions, thoughts, feelings even sought? Certainly no one I know.
It just seems to be a little "unfriendly".
Hmmm.. Dave
I'm trying to see your side of this issue, I really am. (Is your check really in the mail or do I have to pull my punches here!?)
But every single time I reverse things, it puts me in the position of dictating, or trying to dictate, to my imaginary hosts how I think their national championships ought be run and whose rules should be in place, all for my convenience.
I just can't go there. And I think this makes you more than a little uncomfortable as well.
Looked at another way, here in the U.S. we allow anyone who wants to compete entrance to our national championship contest. World wide I do not believe this is a universal practice, although I do understand that some of my friends have been made most welcome at the Australian Nationals.
I don't know how many times it has happened, but we have no problem with modelers from other countries taking first-place trophies home from our Nationals. Again, I don't know how often such has taken place over the years, but I witnessed this at the '88 AMA Nationals when some Ruskies--the Cold War was still in progress, remember--were on the podium in some events.
Still, this is a settled issue; it was settled by modelers representing U.S. interests and having to do with a U.S. contest. Knowing some of these folk, I am quite certain the position of non-U.S. competitors coming along for the W/Cs was put forward and discussed. A decision was made, I agree with the decision, we move on.
And you know how friendly we are! Don't give me that parting pout of yours to the contrary...
Dan
I dont believe that there is any question of attempting to dictate anything, I wouldn't be so presumptious, disrespectful or lacking in cognizance of US tradition. Yes, It definately would make me uncomfortable.
When I first heard of the proposal (From Keith Trostle, I think) my immediate reaction was: "wow, now THAT is a wonderful sporting gesture, typical of the Americans, man it will be great to just share a circle with some of the top guys, no BS about who built what or worrying about where the line is, count me in".
I guess that I'll just put it down to cultural differences - but for the life of me I cant see why a one-off deal is so important. Maybe this is better discussed over a beer next July, better make that a Canadian beer, to ensure neutrality.
As a side issue (related though) when you guys fly FAI classes, speed & TR fer instance, do you go with all the FAI rules, including no B*M requirement?
Couldn't find a smiley face with a pout, sorry. Of course the cheque is in the mail, would I fib to you, of all people?
Cheers, Dave
>As a side issue (related though) when you guys fly FAI
>classes, speed & TR fer instance, do you go with all the FAI
>rules, including no B*M requirement?
>
>Couldn't find a smiley face with a pout, sorry. Of course
>the cheque is in the mail, would I fib to you, of all
>people?
>
>Cheers, Dave
Dave, when US'ns fly FAI classes, we use FAI regs, including 7 minute flight time and no "BOM". Those flying for a place on our WC F2B Team had to run a .61 or smaller, not the .65 we're allowed.
Your rules: FAI rules, but PAMPA-like skill classes? No OTS, but Vintage (pre '60?) and Classic (pre '65?)?? All to the same pattern?? All with 7 minute time limit? No BOM? Correct me where I'm wrong! I don't get it at all, but it's your NATS, and when I visit again, I don't expect y'all to change the rules for me. I expect to have to buy an MAAA license, too. Don't expect me to buy an FAI License.
As for the beer...Mexican beer would be more neutral, politically, than Canadian. Better, too, they have a knack for putting in just the right amount of kerosene. Your group should enjoy the traditional slice of lime in the beer, too. Steve
So far as our classes go:
F2B, per FAI rules, split into open & advanced categories.
Classic, pre-65, provisional rules are FAI pattern, 7 mins etc
Vintage, pre-60, simplified pattern, & no time limit that I can find. Although there is no official BOM for vintage, because workmanship points are awarded, not building the model is regarded as "not on, old chap".I've never seen anyone attempt to do so.
I dont know why, but classic is often flown to a simplified pattern too.
You wouldn't have to have a MAAA licence, we have a "honoured guest" arrangement - and you would most certainly qualify for that! Your AMA licence would be recognised, because the AMA is a member of the FAI, as is the MAAA.
Which is why I've never had to buy a licence in NZ, UK, Germany, France etc etc.
Yep, if you turned up here, we probably wouldn't change the rules just for you, but if 30 US fliers turned up it might be a different story..., particularly if it was a one-off associated with a special occasion and it didn't inconvenience or disadvantage the locals. I, at least, regard having foreign visitors to our contests as a great honour. Most of the guys I fly with, I'm confident, would say "hmm AMA scoring, should be interesting, lets see now who is the most adaptable, but the best guy is probably still gonna win, heck we might learn something from the 'mericuns".
For the w/c, AMA membership (temporary or whatever) is included in the entry fee.
Anyway, this subject is obviously a dead duck, lets forget it.
Cheers, Dave
Actually, that is not true. Our team trials are an FAI contest. They are not held under AMA rules, but FAI rules. FAI pull tests are used and AMA wire sizes are waived and the stricter AMA engine requirements are maintained. FAI judging is used as well. And in years past each entrant even had to buy an FAI stamp just to compete for the right to compete in the Worlds competition.
Anyway, we have argued the BOM to death. But as for the competitors coming a long ways, yes they will. But so do many when the contest is held in Spain or Germany or Russia or Japan. They still travel a long ways just for one contest--the Worlds.
In this case the Worlds was scheduled at the same location and a week earlier than our Nats to give any competitor the opportunity, if he desires, to enter our Nats as well. But He does so under our rules, just as we would enter your contests under your rules. The contestants can enter Advanced with a plane they did not build and a loss of appearance points, but they cannot enter Open without flying a plane they they, themselves, built. And, knowing that this is the case, if they wish to enter, they have a year in which to build it (Well, now we are down to a little under eight months).
>Anyway, this subject is obviously a dead duck, lets forget
>it.
>Cheers, Dave
Yes. Because you were seeking clarification, I let this go a little longer than it should have.
One item though - I think you missed the point about my comments on the US TT: What I said was, that the trials use FAI rules and format in order to select the best team to fly in a FAI w/champs, under FAI juristiction. That is a good move, bearing in mind that the formats are slightly different. However I believe it isn't a "FAI" contest because it is (I understand)run under the auspices of, ultimately, the AMA and the national Aero Club, it merely borrows the international rules, or is it a contest sanctioned by the FAI & on the FAI calendar as a closed national event? Are you guys really using "FAI" line sizes? & does that mean the AMA will waive a safety requirement?, that sounds like an insurance nightmare going somewhere to happen.If that is so, waiving a local rule that has nothing to do with safety seems trivial, and that I can't understand.
Additionally, as said in my response to Steve; I sincerely believe that if for example, a substantial number of US modellers came to the Aussie nats & a temporary (one-off) amendment would enhance participation and enjoyment, then we would provide that temporary amendment.I would certainly lobby strongly for a temporary change.
This discussion has never been about the B#M rule, it is about flexibility and goodwill, just as Tom Dixon put it. Or maybe there is some other agenda that a simple soul like me can't recognize ( See how flexible I am, I even use 'mericun spelling).
So, since it's unlikely that you will see my viewpoint, & you'd be hard pressed to convince me of yours, lets drop it shall we?
I'd still like some advice & ideas on the best way to get my teams models & transport to Muncie!
Cheers, Dave
As I understand it, the FAI trials are not viewed as an AMA contest even though held at the AMA site. (If anyone knows different, join in, but, again, for clarification, not for argument.) As I recall, anyone may enter, but if anyone else were to win or to place, it will still be only the top three flyers from the US who will be picked for the team. And, yes, FAI rules are followed all the way, not AMA.
That means line sizes, pull tests, judge placement, wind, engine sizes, hand starting, time requirements, etc. When the world championships are held at the AMA site the same will apply. It is an FAI contest held on American soil (just as past contests were held elsewhere). Thus you may fly with the lines you were accustomed to using and not have to meet AMA requirements. However, when flying in an AMA sanctioned contest, then you fly AMA rules, including line sizes, BOM, judge placement, starting (we allow electric starters), wind, engine size (we allow bigger 2-stroke engines). Engine shut-offs are allowed in AMA, and even throttles. We use different total time, a different description for landing, different method of scording. There are a lot of different variables allowed or prescribed under the AMA contest rules that a lot of people may not even be aware of. I would expect it to be no different if I were to fly in your country. And, no, the AMA will not drop the line size requirements for the Nats entrants from other countries, either, even though they will be allowed to fly with the smaller lines a week earlier (or during practice) at the worlds.
One is FAI. One is AMA. And the two are sometimes worlds apart. (Pun intended.) You are free to join and compete. Just be prepared to follow the rule requirements including line size restrictions, pull tests, the wearing of a safety thong on the handle, etc., when flying in the AMA contest.
Life will be miserable, my wife is a Brit & I'm never gonna hear the end of this......No doubt Ian, Tony & Dave are chortling happilly, my Brit inlaws are gloating...where will it end...
O woe, O woe.
Dave
It sounds like the best bet is to fly in/out of Canada, which I think you are doing, anyway. Did you look up the old thread on "travelling with models"? This link may or may not work, but maybe Leonard will help find it. I have it bookmarked on my 'puter, but the server has been changed since then, plus the software, etc. I don't think there was an internal bookmarking feature then. A search might find it, tho I haven't had great results with the search function.
The toughest issue would be to get your models back onto your airliner when departing a US airport. I have hopes that the AMA organizers will have some "flushing and inspection certification" program, and have that ok'd by the airlines by the time of the WC. Steve http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dcforum/DCForumID1/3039.html