What is this Vintage Stunt engine?

LAST EDITED ON Nov-19-03 AT 00:27 AM (CST)
 
Six brownie points to the first to identify the brand, designer and displacement of this beautiful engine. Two more points if you can give the MAJOR Stunt wins with it, place and year. Steve

Would that be an Aussie made Glo-Chief 45,designed by Gordon Burford?

Would that be an Aussie made Glo-Chief 45,designed by Gordon Burford?
RetredNed
Bob Allen

Like what He said

Brian Horrocks won the 1959 and 1961 British Nats Gold Trophy with models powered by the Glo Chief 45.

And the reason Brian used that engine was because while he was in England and just before the Nats started, Gordon Burford sent over the engine to him with a plea for him to use it. I recall Brian saying he had something like less than a week to build a complete new model for it.

I'm fairly sure Brian Horrocks won the Brit. Nats with the Glo Chief 49. I think the photo is of the 45, it doesn't look quite as dumpy as the 49.

Looks amazingly like a K&B 45 with a red anodised head, maybe built under liscense in a ferrin' country. Australia, maybe, since that seems to be the consensus!
Bill <><

LAST EDITED ON Nov-19-03 AT 09:21 AM (CST)
 
It looks like something designed by John Brodbek (sp)(not Brodak) the designer of most K&B and Veco engines. The cylinder head shape looks like three of my older K&B .32/.29 engines and the case looks typical of some McCoy engines. The glow plug looks like the original production Arden plugs. This is just chatter, not a guess, as I haven't a clue.

It would be interesting to know just where and when the picture was taken, because that's a British KLG 'Brassknob' plug. I think it's possible that Brian used a 45 in '59 and a 49 in '61. He hasn't been well of late, but I've emailed him for details. Keep your fingers crossed.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-19-03 AT 10:27 PM (CST)
 
I got this photo from Peter Lloyd, of Vic, Aussie. He said it was a .49, it's rare and not for sale. I electronically "smudged" the "Glo Chief" on the bypass, to make it a bit of a challenge. I have not heard of a GC .45, but have met Gordon Burford twice, a very fine and likeable gentleman. Yes, the Glo Chiefs were definitely "'fluenced" by the K&B Greenies, but a bit heavier castings.

Peter also put me in touch with Brian Horrocks, much to my surprise. I was only interested in getting some info on the shades of "green and gold" (Aussie's team colors) on the original '59 Larakin. Ended up with a digital photo of Brian's replica Larakin Mk.1 ('59 Gold Cup winner) and club decal, to boot. It rather reminds me of a certain "Smoothie on Steroids", with a better color scheme. The model is powered by a GC .49, fitted with a ST .51 muffler. My plan is to take a Larakin to Oz in a few more years, with DS .60 Lite and Tom Morris "take-apart" hardware. Steve

PS: Brownie points to everybody. Value 1/100 of .01US$. Except Scott and Ty.

This kind of stuff needs to be sent to mikey Keville to be in his stunt news column for everyones enjoyment.

I LIKE IT , I LIKE IT < ILIKE IT .........:

LAST EDITED ON Nov-19-03 AT 11:14 PM (CST)
 
>This kind of stuff needs to be sent to mikey Keville to be
>in his stunt news column for everyones enjoyment.
>
>I LIKE IT , I LIKE IT < ILIKE IT .........:

Brian wrote that there was a plan afoot to publish the '59 Larakin in the Brit magazine (International Model Builder?) in January '04. Meanwhile, Tom Dixon has plans, as does an West Ozzie plans service. Links below. Brian also emailed an article he'd written previously about the Constellation Model Flying Club, of which he was a founding member in the early '50's. A club a bit older than the NW Skyraiders...how about that! Quite a struggle to find and keep a flying site...seems somehow familiar. Steve

http://members.tripod.com/~TomDixon/plans.htm

http://www.vicstunt.com/ (click on "plans" in upper right)

Steve,

There was in fact a Glo Chief 45, it was produced in 1962 and differed from the 49 that Brian Horrocks used in that it had a smaller case and screw in backplate. The same crankcase was used on the 29 and 35.

>Steve,
>
>There was in fact a Glo Chief 45, it was produced in 1962
>and differed from the 49 that Brian Horrocks used in that it
>had a smaller case and screw in backplate. The same
>crankcase was used on the 29 and 35.
>
>Peter.

Ah...obviously 'fluenced by the Stalkers...or C*x TeeDees Steve

Steve

I think Glo Chief were just about, if not gone by the time Tee Dees appeared. And how long have Stalkers been around?

I can't remember selling new Glo Chiefs in Sydney when I worked in the biggest hobby shop in town in the early sixties. I can remember the arrival of Tee Dees several years after the reed valve Coxes.

>Steve
>
>I think Glo Chief were just about, if not gone by the time
>Tee Dees appeared. And how long have Stalkers been around?
>
>I can't remember selling new Glo Chiefs in Sydney when I
>worked in the biggest hobby shop in town in the early
>sixties. I can remember the arrival of Tee Dees several
>years after the reed valve Coxes.
>
>Cheers, Geoff

It was said in jest, Geoff. There's not a lot that's new in model engine design, certainly not the screw-in backplate. Mostly, it's old ideas, brought back and refined. For example, the blue on OS's LA series...OS had a blue engine in '48. McCoy's were black with red head, Orwick's green hammertone, why shouldn't OS paint their engine blue? It actually looked quite good ...see the OS website for pics. Anyway, it kinda grows on ya...
Steve

Since we're on the topic of Glo Chiefs, here's my 35BB and some comments Dave Simons previously posted about it.

"Nice example of a Glo Chief 35 BB - that is a rare engine! I bought one new in about '66, for combat. I talked to Gordon Burford a while back about this motor - he only built ahundred or so as the case dies got damaged & they didnt sell well enough to make new dies, so he dropped it. They were not intended as a stunt motor, I think.
Cheers, Dave"

Eggy

Isn't that an RC carb on this engine? Is there a baffle on the exhaust too?

>I got this photo from Peter Lloyd, of Vic, Aussie. He said
>it was a .49, it's rare and not for sale. I electronically
>"smudged" the "Glo Chief" on the bypass, to make it a bit of
>a challenge. I have not heard of a GC .45, but have met
>Gordon Burford twice, a very fine and likeable gentleman.
>Yes, the Glo Chiefs were definitely "'fluenced" by the K&B
>Greenies, but a bit heavier castings.
>
>Peter also put me in touch with Brian Horrocks, much to my
>surprise. I was only interested in getting some info on the
>shades of "green and gold" (Aussie's team colors) on the
>original '59 Larakin. Ended up with a digital photo of
>Brian's replica Larakin Mk.1 ('59 Gold Cup winner) and club
>decal, to boot. It rather reminds me of a certain "Smoothie
>on Steroids", with a better color scheme. The model is
>powered by a GC .49, fitted with a ST .51 muffler. My plan
>is to take a Larakin to Oz in a few more years, with DS .60
>Lite and Tom Morris "take-apart" hardware. Steve
>
>PS: Brownie points to everybody. Value 1/100 of .01US$.
>Except Scott and Ty.

STEVE, Never seen the engine! just was going with the expert.

Scott(at least it has a Red Head) Riese

LAST EDITED ON Nov-20-03 AT 07:00 AM (CST)
 
HMMm...these engines have the exhause stacks on opposite sides, and the RC version has a threaded back cover.

Just to carry on the theme of old Glo Chiefs,here's an in-betweener I picked up a few years ago at a club auction. According to Maris Dislers it came out in the change over period between Sabre and Glo Chief but I can't recall now if he said it came in a Taipan or Sabre box. The interesting thing is that no name is cast on the case.

I had forgotten about the Sabre brand. Chronologically, it was GB, then Sabre, Glo Chief, and last Taipan? Plus the odd Doonside, Sesqui, Deezil and Elfin Repro Projects? Any others? Any offers for a matched pair of NIB Doonsides? Steve

Hi Steve,
What's interesting is why Gordon changed the name from Sabre to Glochief, that unmarked 29 probably comes from that period.

You really should build some FF sport models for those engines & get some exercise (Ha, I should talk).

I hope that someone writes a biography of Gordon Burford, Aussie modellers owe him a debt of gratitude that we'll never repay.

I'd guess that the majority of modellers who learnt to fly in the 50/60's learnt on a Taipan 2.5 diesel.

Gordon is one of the finest production engineers that ever turned his hand to building model engines. Because of his manufacturing skills he was able to change engine designs very easily, which meant that no one engine variant stayed in production for very long. There were many outstanding engines; some of my favourites:

Blue head 2.5 diesel, 'bout 1961 best pb sport diesel made, wish I still had mine - Did my first pattern with a jnr flitestreak.

GC 29 steel fin, 'bout 1959 very good stunt engine.

GC 49, like your picture, first of the big stunt engines, but noisy.

2.5BB diesel, late 60's faster than an Oliver, 1/3 the price, could not kill them in .15 rat race & diesel goodyear, first engine I owned that had a really round cylinder.

Taipan 15 schnurle, early 70's - better than a conquest, not as fast as a rossi, instant starts in a goodyear.

GB F2C specials mid '70s, state of the art & superbly made, never had one & I think they all went into collections instantly.

Dave wrote: "What's interesting is why Gordon changed the name from Sabre to Glochief, that unmarked 29 probably comes from that period.

You really should build some FF sport models for those engines & get some exercise (Ha, I should talk)."

Why DID Gordon change the name from Sabre to Glo Chief? Out with it!

Short of driving to Oregon, we don't have a reliable flying field for FF anymore. The fabulous Harts Lake Prairie is a US Army "playfield", and as you can imagine, it has been quite busy since Sept. 11, 2001. Plus, the last two summers, we've had drought conditions, and for fire hazard reasons, they just made it unavailable. Besides, I exercise most every day. Pop! Fizzz! GlugGlugGlugAhhh! Steve

OK, I hope that any other Aussie will correct me if I get the details wrong!.

Gordon changed the name from Sabre to Glo Chief because he was threatened with legal action by North American (or it could have been Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation) for infringement of name rights.

Imagine that! One of the worlds largest aircraft companies suing a model engine manufacturer because of the name of one of their products - and a word that appears in any dictionary. Ker-razy. Gordon couldn't afford to fight it, so he changed the name.

Anyhow I like GC better - principle of the thing.

Dave...that's the story I heard too about changing the name although I don't know which company forced the change. As regards the engine in my photos, I can only guess that he either hadn't decided on what name to use or he was making sure he could legally use Glo Chief...once bitten

I've got a Sabre 29 minus head (hmmm, that reminds me, Maris said he had one) and a Glo Chief 35 with the 3 screw back plate. Of the diesels I've had, that drum induction BB 2.5 was an absolute ripper

Strangely enough I have one of these also. Agree it's a Sabre 29, either 1st or 2nd model. I also have a 2nd. or 1st. model, with steel fins and SABRE on the bypass. This looks for all the world like a 1951 Veco 29 as built by K&B.

Just as a point of interest, there are still quite a few of this late 50s GloChief 49 engine around. Brian Horrocks brought it to fame by using it in the UK. Ian Ward from Scotland has a nice example of one as well. Saw it when we met in 2000 as well as Brian's old "Larikin" which Ian has restored. I can't remember if it is the actual engine from the model. Maybe Dave (Day) can check with Ian on this.

I have quite a good engine as well and plan to use it in a "SUPER UGLY" Ausie designed "Thunder Bug" one day.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-22-03 AT 01:52 AM (CST)
 
Just adding to the general aggreement re the change from Sabre to Glochief.

In the strictest sense, it was CAC who "threatened", but the word GB received from CAC was that they were reluctant to take legal action, but would be forced to if he continued using it.

Gordon told me back in the 60's that it was North American that insisted to CAC that the name "Sabre" was, in their view, both trademarked and copyrighted, as a follow-on from their F86, F101 and F104 fighters. CAC were operating assembly "under licence" from NA, and it would not have been seen as "cooperative" had they ignored NA's request/demand. As usual, the whole matter was more an issue of politics and big-stick-waving. GB contemplated challenging it in the Courts, but his costs could well have bankrupted him.

So Sabre became Glochief. He later adopted the Taipan name to overcome what he perceived was a bias against Australian engines. Whether or not he was right - who knows.

EDIT: Herbie? .. If you have the plan for the ThunderBug, both Peter White and myself would "lurve" a copy of it please.

Ken,
Many thanks for adding the details, I'd heard this story a few times & didn't care to press it with Gordon, I got the impression that it distressed him.

Engine manufacture isn't dead in Oz (here follows unashamed commercial plug for a friend!) Visited Steve Rothwell's factory this morning, he is well into making parts for the second batch of his Oliver replicas. this will be the best Oliver replica on the planet - and Steve blitzed the opposition last weekend in a major vintage TR contest, with the production prototype.

This is one of the best made engines I've ever seen.

Thanks for the email, contact you on the morrow.
Cheers, Dave

We seem to be heading off at a tangent here. The 'Larakin' didn't exist until '61 and was NEVER green and yellow. The model in the photo above is the '59 winner and never had a name until a smaller version was published in 'Model Aircraft' as the 'Wallaby'.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-22-03 AT 03:22 PM (CST)
 
>We seem to be heading off at a tangent here. The 'Larakin'
>didn't exist until '61 and was NEVER green and yellow. The
>model in the photo above is the '59 winner and never had a
>name until a smaller version was published in 'Model
>Aircraft' as the 'Wallaby'.

Peter Lloyd (Ford Lloyd's son, for you Ozzies) sent me several other photos of Brian with his Larakin Mk1 & 2. Also sent a PDF of the '59 British NATS, with a difficult to read narrative describing the winning flight. I'll attach the photos. The color is a creamy yellow or yellowish cream, true enough. The red & white/cream model is the '61 Gold Cup winner, apparently. I have plans for that one. Randy Powell was looking for a BIG Classic model? Buddy, have I got a deal for you! The smaller model is a Nobler. I wonder if it was Merco or Fox powered?

In later years (late '80's?), Brian Horrocks built a replica of the Mk.1, and was shown in Airborne magazine, presenting it to Dave Axon, an official of MAAA, for their "museum", which apparently doesn't & didn't exist. Brian, having returned to Oz, had no access to the original paint, and didn't seem to think it was all that important. It was close enough for him, that model was the one that caught my eye, and wish to approximate. Obviously, since there is no butyrate dope available in Oz, and I would probably be using Brodak dope, the best I could hope would be another approximate color match, so maximum authenticity can't be a huge concern, from a practical standpoint. In fact, a close look at the two Mk.1's Brian built, they have some easy to see differences in the cockpit and rudder.

Thanks for the information about the Larakin Mk.1 name being a delayed event, but it makes little difference. The "Wobbly" is about as interesting as Vegimite...I know of it...don't want any! Steve

The Nobler in the photo was powered by a Glo Chief 29 and was flown by Brian in the 1960 World Champs to place 13th.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-03 AT 04:45 AM (CST)
 
Ken, Pete
I have a plan for the "Thunder Bug" which was expanded from the kit plan?? assy. drawings. The tailplane came via Alwyn Smith or Tony Cincotta which gave us the full working drawing. The last one I flew for a mate here at Windsor (N.S.W) was around 1963. It was powered by the engine of interest, a Glochief 49, hence my interest in this engine and aeroplane. The Glowchief 49 also powered my first Palmer Skyscraper in 1964.

As a piont of interest, I am trying to get a good photo from a video of Brian Horrock's model which Ian Ward has in Crossford, Scotland.

"Herbie H"!!

Can Dave Day Give a name to this model? This is the one which Ian Ward from Scotland restored (Ian holding model). Is this the "Larakin" from 1961. Ian stated that it is in the original colours and still has the "Lee Bees" sticker on the nose. It also looks very "green and yellow"!!

I'm hoping that Brian comes back to me on this, or that Ian Ward gets in on the act. What I know is that during 1961 Brian was building an un-named model in his flat in Bilston for the Gold Trophy. Two fellow members of the Bilston Club, Sam Skitt and Bark Pittaway were usually present. Betty Horrocks on one occasion remarked to Sam that he was a "Real Larakin". Brian immediately adopted the name for the model. It's possible that Brian later referred to the earlier, different, model as the Larakin Mk 1. My memory is becoming far less than it used to be, but I believe that the model which Ian Ward is holding above is not the Gold Trophy winner. I think that was the pinkish one.
The Nobler was built for the world champs in Hungary in 1960. We all travelled together on a coach which was shared with the Belgian team.
I hope to see Sam next weekend and will get his version. I know he has good pictures of all these models.
While he was in England, Brian drove a VW Beetle. The decal on the wing of the model above is a cut-down sticker from the local VW agent.

Here is the word from Brian himself ...

" My 1961 Larakin was covered in yellow parachute nylon and the fuselage was green with a red front end.
The 1960 Larakin was a break from tradition . I have to find a pic to prove it and send it to you. OK? "

He's still a very busy boy in his older years, and can't make the SA State Champs at Christmas - a prior family committment.

Doesn't it LOOK like a Stuka?

>Doesn't it LOOK like a Stuka?

No! Looks more like a Chipmonk...

Tho I can't find them, I have a set of plans for this model, from Tom Dixon. It says it was the Larakin Mk.3, and the '61 Gold Cup winner, not that this is any guarantee, but FWIW. BIG airplane! Steve

Certainly looks as if Pete Tindal caught a similar bug with his Chipmonk at the 1976 Worlds, doesn't it.

Bingo! That's the exact model Chipmonk (note the Brit spelling) that I had in mind. Sure looks like a Stuka...NOT! Fox .40 powered, right? Steve

Steve - I'll have to leave that question to Herb Hanna - he's a personal friend of Pete and would know off the top of his head.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-03 AT 05:09 AM (CST)
 
Boy!! Hasn't this one diverted from the old Glochief 49! Pete Tindal has had the love for the Chipmonk (Chipmunk) for many years and prefered the classic DH Chipmunk rather than the "Krier" canopy etc style bubble. I don't think he had Brian's model in his sights when he designed the Chipmonks prior to and after 1976. Pete was with me when we photographed Brian's Larakin as well as some other bits of nostalgia when we called to see Ian (Ward). I might add that Ian was impressed when I told him I was from Australia on the phone. He thought that the line was very clear. We informed him that it bloody well ought to be as we were only 3 miles down the road!! Could we come over for a visit??!! A great afternoon.

PS. Also, Pete used Fox 40 engines in the 76 models. He later used some Merco 61 engines in the same airframe.

Hi Dallas,
I found the '70s vintage big case Fox 40 to be a great stunt engine, albeit a little heavy. Solid 4-2 break and a good deal of power!
Bill <><

To get back to the Glo-Chief/Sabre theme for a moment, can someone that knows (Like DCO) confirm my suspicion that this engine is the last of the Sabre .35s?

LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-03 AT 09:20 AM (CST)
 
Hi Charlie

I cannot say for certain about the 35 because I didn't ever see one, but the last batch of the poor-performance Sabre 15 Glo's had the name removed in the same manner, and I had two of those back in those years. I'd say it's a safe bet that you're right in your assumption.

When talking to GB about the name fiasco, I don't remember him explaining why some were blank - it was always just "assumed" they were the production during that period and before he settled on the GF brand name.

EDIT: Make that GC name!

... and to clarify which Larakin was which? - Brian's page in the Personalities section of www.vicstunt.com now has a photos page with his own description of each photo in this thread.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-03 AT 06:51 PM (CST)
 
Some nostalgia models from OZ. Leonard has a the Thundersrteak held by the late Harold Flanagan from Coff's Harbour NSW and there are two other models from around 1959-1961. The Thunderbug had some bits missing off the plan and after I cleared that up, lack of time put it on hold. The side view shows a different fin shape to the photo of original model. Hope to get a copy to SSW soon. The other is the Semi Commanche of Paul turner from here in NSW, OZ. As far as I know, I was the only other one to build replicas of it. One in 1965 and another in 1998. I did build a lengthened fuz one for an Enya 45 in 1972 and a totally modified version was designed around 1974 for the engine of the day, the ST 46 using Al Rabes thoughts on design. Reg Towell completed this model in 1976 and it proved quite successful.

Leonard may be able to start a new string for this as it is getting away from the original concept of the Glochief 49.

last of the Sabre .35s?

Hi Charlie,
It is a 1958 GLO-CHIEF, and a very nice one too!
rgds

Thanks Dave. It has never been run as far as I can tell.
Do you know how that model Glo Chief behaved when used? Were they a good motor?

Charlie,
I do remember these GLO-CHIEFs well and bought two 35s, which I still have, in 1958.
So did my flying mate, Ray Brown. Will attach a shot of his Hi-Boy, which is powered with a '58 model, and has been hanging in my workshop since Brownie died about 10 years ago.
I flew my engines in a Hi Boy, Gladiator and a Ramrod and we both flew Sure Funs off the water with 3-line controls. We cut slots in the exhaust stacks of the GLO-CHIEFS and fitted our own throttle slides.
We made our own Roberts-style bellcranks, but we never knew that the handle also had the compensating bellcrank and our handles simply had provision for a third line. Still, they worked well and we didn't know the difference!
cheers

LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-03 AT 11:10 PM (CST)
 
I'm really surprised (and thrilled) that this thread developed as well as it did, and drew out such a great mob from Oz. KenD has added a link to the NW Skyraider's website, and I've added a link to Victoria Stunt on ours. Now, if we can see some more Aussie-designed stunters built, especially the Classic designs, it will be VERY cool. Snug lines to all, Steve http://www.nwskyraiders.com

Hi Steve,
Darn it, youve let the cat out of the bag - some of those designs were very good. My secret weapon for VSC in a couple of years will be a ST46 powered take apart Angelique (Kens design), with good wood & Ukrainian take apart bits, I figure 55oz. Ken is gonna help with the changes for the ST - aren't you Ken? No Steve, you cant have my plans, signed by Ken!

A great thread, everyone learned something, 'specially me. Thanks

What would I expect to pay for a usable Sabre/Glo Chief 35?

Tony