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Combat Streak and Whipsaw

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Gary Weaver · Nov 19, 2003 08:56 PM

#0 source
I am setting here looking at model airplane plans when I came across the Combat Streak. I have seen this airplane before but I can't put my finger on it. After several minutes it came to me, its a Flite Streak with a full fuselage. It appears to me someone took a Flite Streak and built it with a full fuselage and renamed it Combat Streak. What is the advantage of a full fuselage over a profile?

I also noticed the Whipsaw has a really cool looking very long wing span. I have seen this airplane somewhere before too. After studing it for several minutes I realized the Whipsaw is a single engine profile B-17. "Neato." The elevator, stab, fin have been customized.

Has anyone ever built or flown a Whipsaw?

Ty Marcucci · Nov 19, 2003 09:17 PM

#1 source
There is a Whipsaw on ebay right now. It came out first with Consolidated, then was bought by Ambroid. It is a PDG design. The Combat Streak has room for a bigger fuel tank. It too is a George Aldrich design. I had two of them. Both kits are worth more as kits than built and if you don't believe that, just check out $bay.

dennis · Nov 20, 2003 06:30 AM

#4 source
>There is a Whipsaw on ebay right now. It came out first with
>Consolidated, then was bought by Ambroid. It is a PDG
>design. The Combat Streak has room for a bigger fuel tank.
>It too is a George Aldrich design. I had two of them. Both
>kits are worth more as kits than built and if you don't
>believe that, just check out $bay.

Ty, The whipsaw was origionally put out by Enterprise models in N.J
at a cost of $2.95 for the 15 sized version. This preceeded the super Whipsaw. It was actually a take off of the Stinger another PDG design in F.M about 1961. They basically added a canopy to the design.
I loved that little plane. It was a pain to get any kind of tank in it without opening the wing and building a platform for it
I also had the Super WhipSaw by Ambroid. It flew well but the kit wasn't the best
I had the Stinger plans blown up and built 2 of them, Don't even think of putting a modern 35 on one of these. I have TT25's on and it's really more then you need.
Since I flew combat as a kid I really have a soft spot for the old combat designs. Have also built Wow's, Wowee's, Half Fast, Reactor, Voodoo and Super Swoop. Don't ever spend the money for a vintage kit on any of these. They are too simple to cut out and make one for yourself

Ty Marcucci · Nov 20, 2003 09:56 PM

edited#6 source
You are absolutely right. I was looking at a kit here in the office and got the names mixed up. I always get Consolidated and Enterprise kits mixed up. They look the same to me once the box top is off, terrible kits, but for the era, not bad. The one I have here is a 1/2A kit, but with todays .049s, it would be over powered, then maybe not.

Serge Krauss · Nov 19, 2003 09:45 PM

#2 source
Gary-

>Has anyone ever built or flown a Whipsaw?<


Propped against the front curtain a few feet away is the "Whipsaw" I built from an Ambroid kit back in about 1960, replete with Werwage's 1959 "Ares" paint scheme - but alas only to my untutored, teenage standards of workmanship. I posted somewhere recently how a backfiring McCoy .19 RR ultimayely preserved it all these years; so I'll just say that to my uneducated 1960-vintage eyes, it looked really wicked (still does)!

I ran tail-moment coefficient numbers through on this and found them impressive. As a knife-edged, A/R>6 combat model of it's time, it must have really turned sharply at high speed. The "Super Whipsaw", must have been even scarier with a .35 and a thin wing of modest area and an A/R of over 7! Wayne Buran loaned me his kit plans to copy last year.

My new flapless with "really cool" airfoil generated by manipulating airfoils in "Profili" owes a lot otherwisw to the "Whipsaw", although it's planview will be less attractive due to aerodynamic considerations directed toward a different goal (yes, I really had one when I asked last year).

You could probably fly the whipsaw on modern 1/2-A power now. Neat plane.

SK

Kim Mortimore · Nov 22, 2003 07:45 PM

#7 source
>
>My new flapless with "really cool" airfoil generated by
>manipulating airfoils in "Profili" owes a lot otherwisw to
>the "Whipsaw", although it's planview will be less
>attractive due to aerodynamic considerations directed toward
>a different goal (yes, I really had one when I asked last
>year).
>

Serge,
I think highly tapered LE/TE flapless planforms look very sharp. The Super Whipsaw wing looks like it could be enlarged and adapted for flapless stunt, with a new airfoil. John Kilsdonk's '61 Hooptee Mk 1 is another good looking double-tapered design, but with lower A/R. A while back SN said the version he built a few years ago, not long before he passed away, cornered so tightly that improved spar design would be needed to handle the flex.

Can you tell us anything more about your really cool flapless airfoil? I'm also curious what aerodynamic considerations led you to change the planview?

Thanks!
Kim Mortimore

Serge Krauss · Nov 22, 2003 10:25 PM

#8 source
Hi, Kim-

>Can you tell us anything more about your really cool flapless airfoil? I'm also curious what
>aerodynamic considerations led you to change the planview?


FWIW: I wanted a larger, slower plane than the "Whipsaw". Starting with the NACA 63A010 (as archived), I moved the point of maximum thickness up to 24% and 23% chord and thickened to ~19% and ~20% for root and tip, respectively. To get the t.e. thickness I needed, I had to create a longer chord at a lower percent max. thickness, so that I could chop it off at the t.e. to get these specs.

This was with Profili I. A couple weeks ago I finally registered and sent in my donation for Profili II (does spars and...?), but haven't played with it yet. Anyway, this scientific sounding method gave me an airfoil with an "eyeball-engineered" l.e. radius that looks good (never measured!): big enough, but not as blunt as an NACA 00XX section increased to those dimensions. It also eased the high-point transition (hoped this would alleviate problems at aft edge of l.e. sheeting) and stretched out the aft surfaces to a nearly straight taper.

One thing I noted while experimenting with this was that deriving a thicker section from this method did not seem to produce the same shape as using the NACA section generated by its own built in equation. For instance, a requested NACA 0019 did not look the same as an NACA 0010 fattened by 90%. Another thing I might note is that although the creator of Profili seems to have done a good job in a good cause, with sensible and generous expectations from users (i.e. a freeware Profili I, and a quite modest $10.00 USD donation to register for Profili II), David Lednicer posted a couple years back on the "Nurflugel" site that the archived airfoils in Profili seem to have come from the compilation he and Michael Selig display on the UIUC site.

Anyway, I used the same taper ratio as the "Whipsaw" (not the 'Super WS') to handle wind better than usual taper ratios at high A/R, but put the 1/4-chords in line spanwise for longer tail arm and to negate any dihedral effect from sweep. I then added a small fixed (stationary) flap, which brings area up to about 500 in^2 and lowers the A/R to about 6.1. Tips are modified, as was the horiz. stab/elevator. There are other more subtly "guestimated" features. There are a couple things I'm trying to enhance longitudinal stability. Tail Vol. coefficient is good, but I'm really guessing with the control quickness - stability trade off. That's the fun in it. However, even with a nicer fuselage profile, I think mine will lack the more harmonius appearance of the original "Whipsaw". The inside of the wing's pretty impressive though, and I seriously doubt that it will have root folding problems.


My desire at the time I drew this up was to make a very tight turning plane that was not a combat plane - for an LA .25. I wanted it light and knew that a relatively short-coupled model would lessen both weight and circular air flow effects against turns. My more recent "adventures" at the field hint that I perhaps should have drawn up a large flapped design first, but as Ty says, "I'm gettin' better." Perhaps I'll catch up with the plane by the time I fly it.

I never flew my over-powered, nose-heavy "Whipsaw", but believe that PDG may have created quite a little monster here, despite its thin wing section. It's numbers are impressive, and at its speed, it must have been pretty ferocious. I'd still be interested to hear what flyers discovered with it in the 1950's. I view my model as a descendent, but quite different plane.

Well, that's undoubtedly more than anyone wanted to know about an obscure experiment, but there you have it. As I said: FWIW.

SK

Kim Mortimore · Nov 24, 2003 04:42 PM

#9 source

Thanks for the detailed reply, Serge!

Kim Mortimore

bkruger · Nov 20, 2003 05:56 AM

#3 source

>fuselage. It appears to me someone took a Flite Streak and
>built it with a full fuselage and renamed it Combat Streak.
>What is the advantage of a full fuselage over a profile?
>

Simple full fuselage ships have a number of advantages over profiles:

1. Vibration from the engine is handled better. With a full fuse, there is much less chance of a vibrational harmonic setting in that causes erratic runs from fuel foaming. This is important when dealing with older engines that had a cast iron piston and shook at lot more than many of our better balanced newer engines.

2. Some engines (like the Fox 35) don't always run well on their side, especially in negative G maneuvers. That problem goes away with an upright or inverted mount.

3. Tanks placement makes engine run setup easier, as the centerline of the tank can correspond with the centerline of the engine.

4. Full fuselage ships are inherently "stiffer" than most profiles. e.g. the fuse won't flex during hard maneuvers.

The Combat Streak is a fun flyer. I built a couple many years ago and had a ball with them.

Bob

wright45 · Nov 20, 2003 06:52 PM

#5 source
Back in 1959, my third airplane was a Whipsaw/Fox 15 steelfin. Flew great but I had to mount the tank on top of the wing so no inverted flying. Someday, I will build another. I already have copies of my first plane (Scientific Golden Hawk/Cub 049A), fourth plane(Veco Tomahawk/McCoy 29)and I still have my original second airplane, Scientific Air Champ/Cub 074.
I once had a Combat Streak, but it didn't fly as well as a Flite Streak for some reason, got rid of it.