The handle you use !

Early this year at La Queue en Brie - France, during one of the Nationals competitions I took some pictures of certain handles used by top competitors.

Below you will see a simple handle used by Serge Delabarde from France. Another one he uses has an aluminumn body covered with balsa to make it light.

Both handles he uses are very simple and basic and to my surprise with no means to make an in-flight adjustment.

I was wondering if you guys could post some photos of the handles you use.

Thanks for the contribution.

The handles photos below were taken during the last WC in Germany and I believe (but I am not sure) the first one belongs to the Chinese winner this year (Han Xinping) and the second one, I have no idea. But what comes to our eyes is simplicity.

Regards,

[photo not recovered: 3fc3624f6d79c15a.jpg]

That second handle belongs to Jiri Vejmola for sure.

[photo not recovered: 3fc362976dd862e8.jpg]

I am attaching also picture showing what Chinese flyers use.

Sure seems to be lot of hard point handles.

Thanks for the info and update. As I had said I wasn't sure and by looking at the close picture you took, it seems to me that the Chinese handle looks super and not just a simple thing.

Wonderful inputs. Does anyone have more ?

TD

FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, MY STANDARD PRECISION PRO HANDLE IS AN IDENTICAL COPY OF THE HOT ROCK SHAPE. LIKE YOU, I'VE ALWAYS FELT THE HOT ROCK WAS THE "PERFECT" HANDLE SHAPE FOR FLYING STUNT...SIMPLE AND SYMETRICAL.

THE PRECISION PRO MERELY TAKES THAT FUNDAMENTAL SOUNDNESS AND ADDS A DEGREE OF SENSITIVITY AND OVERHANG ADJUSTABILITY AND ELIMINATES THE CABLE WITH ITS ATTENDANT NEGATIVE CHARACTERISTICS.

AS LARRY SUGGESTED (AND MANY OF THE PHOTOS OF THE HANDLES USED BY THE BEST AT THE WORLD CHAMPS ILLUSTRATES) THE HARD POINT ATTACHMENT IS A SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT IN FEEL AND ACCURACY OF INPUT TO THE MODEL.

TED

P.S., PARDON THE SHOUTING AGAIN.

P.P.S. IT IS WORTH NOTING THAT THE WHOLE HARD POINT IDEA FOR HANDLES POPPED INTO MY HEAD WHILE HELPING MR P.W. FLY HIS TOYS IN SHANGHAI. HMMMM? HIS HANDLE DIDN'T NEED NO STINKIN' CABLES. I MAY NOT BE TOO SMART BUT I AM A QUICK STUDY!

IT'S A MAC USED FOR FLIGHT CONTROL, IS THAT IT?

you slick, slimy, sick, subrepticious, smart Slovak!!

Gee, Igor, those chinese guys look so clean cut and "goodboyish" that they make us look like a bunch of combat fliers!

Regards from Dr. Noi Zinum and Rogi Ugreb.

But the problem can be, if you move leadouts, CG or rudder. In this case you must ajdust neutral, and inflight adjustable handle saves time. I do not use it just because I have calculator telling how much to adjust line length if I move leadouts so I can do it on ground before flight.

For years I kinda thought my design was pretty good, even though I had seen a great many variations over the years, including Ted's handles.

Just a couple weeks ago, following use of a single "Ted Handle" for a few months, being well aware of PW's design, glancing askance at my own design, I sighed and cut a check for four of Ted's handles.

Even if I had a better design, and I do not, just the effort in building drilling jigs and gathering up the materials was not worth it.

The last coat of paint went on my new handles last night. I'm set.

Oh, oh. Paul better look into his social security status!

I will try the hard point handles soon. I know that anything to which Ted Fancher puts his name will be good, and I have heard and seen nothing but good reports about the Morris handles as well.

Mike, your handle is the George Aldrich "Magnum" handle. A lot of folks like it, until they try a handle without cables. It is a good handle for Combat, and ok for sport if you are still flying multitudes of airplanes on one set of lines.

I just got a second batch of Tom Morris handles, a bargain. See the link. Steve http://www.tomsbuildingservice.biz/control_system_components.htm

PS: Judges tend to give negative impression points for overly fancy control handles, Randy.

Or is the picture inveted and you fly clock wise?

One of the reasons that I like the Magnum Handle is that it has the same line spacing as the Hot Rock but is enough wider between the arms of the handle that my hand fits much better. I still have a firm contact at the arms with my index and little fingers, but don't have to overlap those two outside fingers over the inner ones. The handle is much more easily adjustable for line length than the Hot Rock, too. Its only drawback (other than the fact that the pros tell us that a hard point handle is better) is that it's very thin, which can sometimes make flying uncomfortable. That's why I add the handlebar grip. Even with the added rubber, the handle is not quite as heavy as the Hot Rock.

The red handle pictured above is indeed the Magnum. Unfortunately, it's no longer made. I see them from time to time at the 'Bay and there may be guys here who would part with one or more.

I forgot to mention that one of these days I'll try the handle that Bigiron promised to send me back in the Iskandar (pre Stuka) days.

The bar has been replaced with a solid milled unit and the hardpoints are a bit different now, but that's essentially it.

How'd ya know?

fawgetaboutit----

All sorts of examples and good talk about something as important as your lines !

I think Marcucci's idea about field box is very interesting too. Who starts ?

1 - Our friend Dave Fitzgerald - USA

2 - Alberto Maggi - Italy

3 - Gilbert Beringer - France

Dick, I have heard alot about your handles. I also heard that they are hard to obtain. Do you still make them and how much are they?

I can take pay pal:
or you can send a check to :

dick byron
3325 galaway bay dr.
grand prairie, tx 75052
972-336-0445
817-680-4848 cell phone

I too have long been an advocate of seperate handles and lines for each plane, so when I build a new plane, I also build a new handle for it. A few years ago, after getting one mix up, I started painting the handles to match the plane. The red, white, blue, and yellow one was built for my recently departed Excalibur. The yellow one, with the checkerboards is for my Legacy.

The other handle is an example of my first style, and is one of the first I ever built. Notice, that I used a section of aluminum channel for the bar. Later, I purchased some CNC machined bars to use.

Yes, they are all adjustable. I haven't yet got on the bandwagon for the fixed style, though I'll likely be ordering one of Ted's for evaluation.

For the early style handle, I believe that the curve at the front of the handle is what makes the old EZ-Justs such a comfortable design. So, I copied the EZ-Just in the area where the fingers grip. I made the rest of the handle with different radii to accomodate my rather large hand, pinky, and index fingers.

For the later design, I wanted less weight, and a very secure grip. The first one, of this style, I built lacked the finger grips, only retaining the swell, or curve, of the EZ-Just. The next one was built as you see it here. The grips are set to follow the swell or curve, but lock the fingers into position better. These handles are only 1/2" thick, some may not like it, but it works for me.

I'm wondering why everything is spinning around?

Y'all can fly with the Magnum in any way you want, but they were designed such that the knob for clamping cable is down when flying in normal upright level flight.

The knob is a great place to attach a safety thong, another reason it goes to the "down" side of the handle.

They are pretty thin, but several wraps of that lightly-tacky, squishable tape used on sprained limbs, tennis rackets, etc., etc. goes a long way toward increasing the thickness of handle to your own specs while also nearly instantly conforming to your hand. The particular tape I use--sorry, no brand names nor even a good description come to mind--will readily conform to another flyer's hands, making the loan of certain of my models all too easy.

As to adjustability of hard-point handles, Ted's design is adjustable, although I much prefer to just jam upper and lower metal pieces all the way home in order to reduce the overhang as much as possible.

For Ted's handle, and my previously-used hard-point handles, I have a whole bunch of home-made line clips bent up from .047 piano wire. And a dial caliper. (A direct copy of Paul Technology, I am not afraid to admit.) In addition, I have a (new) big wad of line clips which are bent up expressly for my "Ted Handles." These are made from .055 piano wire and where my to-airplane clips use recycled SIG slides, the larger units have overlapping wire coming from each end and are held closed by a 1/2-inch long piece of silicone tubing.

With experience, and four different line clips with which to fiddle, I can always nail the perfect setting.

Yes, yes, it is a hassle to get a neutral setting. Flying, measuring clips, flying again.

Laugh if you want, and I am sure some of you are laughing so hard you are crying, I would not consider using any other setup, most especially cabled handles, on any CL Stunt model with which I expect to extract maximum performance. Yes, even my ARF Flite Streaks, just to demonstrate that I am as capable as anyone else in going way over the top with Stunt models and related equipment.

Incidentally, and to no specific point, I had to slightlly modify my handles from Ted so my hand will fit. But the larger version was just a bit too big, plus the available minimum line spacing was wider than I may need for some future model. Also, Ted's handles as I measured them were .810 thick; I shot each one through a table saw a couple times, thinning them to .610. (See above; when one gets accustomed to a dial caliper it gets used for *everything,* even low-tech woodworking projects.)

Another incidental, ditto, is that as a bonus for the less than tidy, clips made from piano wire can safely be used on even a Saito 72-powered, 70-ounce Impact while the clips are open, they are that strong. But do close them anyway, okay?

>>Of course handles are carefully crafted from Kenyian mahagony or Chinese birch, with precious wood carving and UV resistant high gloss varnish!<<

The one pictured above is made from Black Limba. I'm working on one now that's from Afromosia. Mine are just polished up with wax.

I don't adjust overhang as is obvious. The finger holes are done because I don't tend to grip the handle very hard and fly a lot with my fingers. Allows me to push forward when giving "up". Other's have picked it up and said they didn't like it because it didn't fit their hand. But then, it's carved to fit my hand. I do adjust line spacing since I tend to mess with some strange designs and they tend to be a bit sensitive (or insensitive) depending on what weird design decision I might have made. Line length is still adjusted by hardpoint, so no inflight adjustments, though the new handle does have an idea for that.

Cripes, Dick, I know lots of people who enjoy your handles. I'm not one of them, as I kinda swore off cabled handles a few years ago, but with a following like you've got one would think you to be much happier about the situation than you seem.

Sorry Don,

Dick does make really nice cable type handles and I have a couple that I use for OTS flying (I have been using "no-cable" handles on my Impacts for several years now and have just purchased 4 of Ted's great handles) but Dick does come across as defensive and kinda angry on this forum. He is a truly nice guy in person which makes it surprising that he seems angry and defensive on this forum.

The fact that some of us find that no-cable handles are more suitable for us does not mean that we are finding fault with Dick's cable handles. Different preferences for different people.

Dan,

I agree. The handle kits were purposely made thicker than I prefer because some might like the additional thickness. Always figured it was easier to take away some of the wood than it is to add it on!

Also, Dan, note that the standard sized handle can safely be opened up 1/16" or so top and bottom and still leave adequate meat in the arms for a sound structure...plus the fact that the real strength of the arms comes from the clamping action of the compression bolts on the line clips. Another 1/8" or so of space and the narrower grip size and I bet you'll find it fits just fine.

As I comment in the instruction sheet that comes with the handle, I feel it is very important for the fingers to contact the arms of the handle to allow tiny control inputs from merely flexing the fingers rather than having to move the whole wrist. I think you'll find the smaller handles superior in this way once you get them carved to fit properly.

Let me know what you think.

go to: http//www.dickbyron.com to revue them.

Perhaps now you know why

Happy Thanksgiving to you, too, Dick.

I know you're going to find this hard, if not impossible to believe, but whenever I type, write or say the word "cable" it does not simultaneously bring to mind a mental picture of "Dick Byron". As a matter of fact, pretty much the only time in years I've gotten any sort of mental picture of you is when you've sent me either private-- or in this case--public hate mail. I'm not sure what your problem is but you really need to get it resolved. Please don't feel you have to include me in that solution.

I don't think anybody else reading my original post needed a road map drawn regarding my remarks, but just so you can enjoy your turkey, please review the following.

There was a famous line in a movie years ago where one of the characters played by either Cheech or Chong, I don't know which, used the phrase: "Badges, badges! We don't need no stinkin' badges!" The implication being that these bad boys could do their quasi law enforcement deal without benefit of the usual "official accourtrements". It was a clever and humorous line and pretty much every living adult is familiar with the phrase, even if not its origin.

In the context of this thread, I gave credit for the source of my "inspiration" to use a hard point handle to exactly where it came from...likely history's finest US stunt flyer, Paul Walker. As he was once again beating me at the Shanghai World Champs ... not by much, but close only counts in horsehoes and handgrenades (hope I don't have to explain that one too, Dick)... I noted that his very straight forward handle didn't have all the usual accoutrements. It didn't have no stinkin' cables! (Oops)

Well, being an inferior pilot on that day didn't mean that I was also without sentient observational skills. One thing I've learned being beat by Paul Walker on a fairly routine basis is that he does nothing for no reason, especially something that makes things harder than the "accepted" way...which is one of the drawbacks of a hard point handle. When I saw Paul had made his life harder by eliminating the cable from his handle it occurred to me it might be worthwhile to investigate why. While doing so I added my only personal contribution to the concept, the sliding attachment arms that allow a modest amount of control over neutral, desired handle angle and overhang.

Well, Dick, I tried it and I liked it and I've told other people I like it. I thought it might be fun to tell people on this thread that I liked it and EXACTLY WHERE THE INSPIRATION FOR MY VERSION OF THE HANDLE CAME FROM. I thought it would be more fun to do so by paraphrasing a line from a cute movie that most mature adults in the country were familiar with.

It was a joke, Dick. An attempt to make my remarks amusing as well as informative of my personal opinion. It had nothing to do with you, Dick. Hard to believe, I know.

Ted

I apologize to the readers of this forum for replying to Dick in this manner. Please, try all types of handles, pretty much all of which "work" and decide for yourself which style you prefer.

"......There was a famous line in a movie years ago where one of the characters played by either Cheech or Chong, I don't know which, used the phrase: "Badges, badges! We don't need no stinkin' badges!" The implication being that these bad boys could do their quasi law enforcement deal without benefit of the usual "official accouterments". It was a clever and humorous line and pretty much every living adult is familiar with the phrase, even if not its origin....."

Tsk, tsk, Ted. I didn't know you were a doper! You are, I believe, old enough to remember the original use of the line that you quote. It is from The Treasure of the Sierra Madre(1948). Humphrey Bogart's character (Hobbs?) is surrounded by banditos who claim to be Federales in order get closer to him. Hobbs orders, "Show me your badges!" to which the bandito leader replies with the line you quoted. That line has been quoted and paraphrased by many others in and out of films since.

By the way, if you haven't seen this film, you might like to rent it. It's one of my all-time favorites.

Hope your Turkey Day is going well!

What! You mean those guys weren't Cheech and Chong in costume? I've been lead astray again.

Actually, Paul, I'm not much of a film buff. My only real memories of films from that long ago, strangely enough, were of Mario Lanza in The Great Caruso. My late Mom, a marvelous singer, took me to see that when it was brand new and I was only slightly less so. For some reason, the music, his uniform or whatever, I was enthralled. Made my mom buy a 45RPM record of La Donne e Mobile (SP?) and one of those tiny (for those days) portable record players and I sang along with Mario until the record was about worn out. What a voice!

I hasten to add, some years later that same little player was pressed into duty to provide the means whereby I attempted to imitate Elvis and Roy (Orbison, who else?)

Only film memory preceding that was a short circuited trip to the Wizard of Oz (which likely predated "...Caruso"). It was short circuited because yours truly was scared to death of tin men, talking lions and straw down the back made me itch. Can't even recall if we made it through when it turned from black and white to color...if it did in the original release.

At any rate, my apologies to Bogie and the C and C boys. At least I got the line and the plot right.

Hope you had a great turkey day...do they come frozen up there?...and best wishes for a Merry Christmas and a terrific new year.

I loved The Great Caruso, too. Mario Lanza did indeed have a voice. However, I grew up and tired of tenors (except for Nelson Eddy) as a lot of them sounded "screachy" to my ear. A good basso profundo now, is a different kettle of fish. Remember William Warfield singing "Old Man River" in Show Boat(1951)? Great stuff! That film also featured my favorite coloratura soprano, Kathryn Grayson, one outstanding singer, and VERY easy on the eyes.

I, too, had trouble with The Wizard of Oz. That wicked witch and her flying monkeys gave me nightmares for awhile.

Oops. I'm fading into the mists of time........................mea culpa, apologia mea.

Yep, we have frozen turkeys here, but we eat most of 'em cooked.

I found it, interesting, that you were in Shanghai for the world champs. If my memory servs me correctrly both Bob Hunt and Paul Walker were there also. That is quite a coincidence, you see I gave Bob Hunt 6 of my handles to either use or trade as he saw fit 2 were to be given to each team member. Were you a team member? yes!

He was to send me a poster from there. He did.

Ted the one thing I can see is that you tend to say things without thinking of there impact on anyone else.

Your arrogant response is typical of you as to the origin of the "stinkin cable" line. Even if you had explained it before you said it was still out of line.

Your statement that paraphrasing a line from a cute movie that most "MATURE ADULTS" in the country is just plane inflammatory. I DEMAND AN APOLOGY.

Better splain.

To think that I'm 'Better Read' than someone else. More to the point. I'm not stupid, I just have a head full of worthless stuff. This quote, originally from 'The Treasure of the Sierra Madres' and used constantly afterwards is used constantly and really I cannot think of a month that has gone by that I haven't heard it used somewhere in the last ten years. Now 'Well Read' usually applies to someone who is up on both classical and contemporary literature propects, that definatley is not me. I can't put this silly monitor down long enough to clear the magazines off my copy of Dickens, let alone read it. I have however had a straight cable line attached to my brain and have a head full of that TV garbage.

So when Ted says, 'He don need no stinkin cables' I knew immeadiatly what he means and where he gets it. I also concour and have shown folks the difference between a cabled handle and a hard point.

Now to each his own. If you prefer cables, have at em. Lord knows you haven't seen my name in the top 20, 50 and for that matter 80% of all stunt pilots.

But to demand an apology simply because you haven't filled your head full of a bunch of garbage programming and therefore aren't on the same page as the rest of us 'Stoners?' Boy Howdy are we all gonna laugh about that in 10 years, you included.

Now, go get a copy of the Bogey movie, its a good'un. And I still laugh at the Cheech n Chong movies, I was in college when they were still spinning those out.

I forsee your blood preasure going down, and your enjoyment, well heck, you already play Control Line Stunt, how could you get happier?

I am sure that you make great handles too. Ted was just trying to lighten up some of his sometimes boring disertations. A little less hyper sensitivity would be beneficial especially where meanings sometimes get fuzzy in typed out quick responses.

I think Mikey's handles would be killer too and intend to get one of his to try also.

Regards,

Bill Morell

I will never forget my first big handle, for my Barnstormer. I used fishing line, about 50 lb pull from my Dads sporting goods store, it was woven and dark brown. Very strong. The American Junior handle for the Firebaby was just too small. So I "found" a 1 X 2 stake driven in the ground at a new house being built around the corner and uprooted it, carved a handle to fit my hand. I drilled a hole at each end and installed the line with lots and lots of half hitches. Being in the Boy Scouts really paid off here! Then I measured the lines at the end, cut them equal and made nice tight knots there too. I attached these to the plane, Hugh, my flying buddy, launched it. I flew for several level laps, well almost level, and tried the "wing over" one of two tricks we knew. It went up just fine, but at the time to pull out, I had the handle full up, parrallel with the ground. The knots slipped and became tighter making the up line longer. Result=pow, into the ground at a 85 degree angle. Nothing is ever a perfect 90 degrees! That handle, had it survived, would be the "ugliest" ever created. However the style is not untypical of the ones with out cables. This was about 1953/54. I wasn't in high school yet. Next handle was an EZ Just. Never looked back until now.

And again, a picture of mine

It's two colors represents where I've whittled on the Microballoon/epoxy mix to fit my hand a tad bit better. Handle is simple enough. An Aluminum blank center covered with the puddy mix and held while it sets. Then whittle away the excess 'stuff' paint, seal and you have a handle that fits YOUR hand. Low overhang, adjustable center both vertically and horizontally with precession if you like it. I've been flying with a set of lines that is a bit longer on one line than the other, that's why the bellcrank portion is so far out at the bottom.

Really a pretty good handle that I know is not going to go flying out of my hand like that stinkin hotrock did before I was wearing safety thongs. The Hotrock is a little small for my hand and thanks to my Carpal Tunnel experience, I really can't tell how hard I'm grasping the thing anyways.

Just one thing:

Guess what the grip reminds me of?

I plunk down some dough and get me a few of these Ted handles. Mainly for one reason. I want to have many of the same Handles. I want to use the same handle on all my planes. I am thinking "Cool finally I can have a bunch of the same handles". I have been making my own Bar handles for some time now and just beaten by it.

After some construction, very simple I might add, I put the handle on a plane I have won with many times and felt needed little if any improvement. Old Blue, my 97 Bear that has many many fligts and even more stress cracks... Instantly I can fly the plane with more precision than I ever thought possible. Literally you can feel the bellcrank in your hand. All of a sudden I feel I could kick anyone's ass with that plane. The wheelies are gone and the wingover is just plain killer. I practice for a while and take it to a contest and bring home the hardware. I really feel like my hand is right on the bellcrank. I just know I am going to make a big leap in my pattern.

I get so happy after that conetst because now I cant give it go on the big pappa. I am all happy and ready for the revelation of a lifetime. I put up a flight and I have never in my life missed so many angles. I am glad no one was really paying attention.(I am sure Brad was there talking power curves on the 4s and pretty much drawing attention away from one of the ugliest patterns of all time,thanks Brad) I tried and tried and tried all different combonations, for almost a month, to get that thing to work but it just makes the plane so freaking active I cant groove it. Back on with the big old bar handle and the pattern returns, all is right again with the world. Well almost. Now I have seen the light with the hardpoint handle and felt the true action of the bellcrank going back to the bar handle made the plane have no "Feel" I can still fly the crap out of it with no feel like the hardpoint gives you but it feels sluggish now.

I could see how easy it would be with that handle on there to get alot hopps on exits with a very active plane. The little Bear has a very small tail 18% with rudderlets. The handle really helped to bring out the capabilities of that plane. On the big gun it just fired it up even more so. It was really over the top. Cables was hard to hit two maneuvers in a row. On solids...forget it. However Bob Gieseke flys on one on his plane, mine is like his, and it flys great. I flew it and it flys great and easy. I dont understand his controls are a little bit faster than mine but I can groove his and not mine. Maybe the bar handle is hiding something. Whatever it is the bar still works pretty good.

What am I to do? Retrim my whole plane around the handle or march on. For now I will march on. I do have four of the Ted handles and use them on all planes but the Nats rig and reccommend them highly...

Hi Doug,

Thanks for the testimonial...I think!

There is truth in what you say. If you'll recall I addressed a similar issue in the instruction sheet/handle philosophy aritcle that comes with the handle. In that sheet I mentioned that the effects of using the hard point handle were not unlike switching from cables to solids in the degree of added sensitivity or "feeling" of direct attachment to the airplane was concerned. It all has to do with removing a portion of the "springiness" that exists between the airplane and the handle that can come from a variety of sources.

Primarily, these are: stretchiness of the control lines themselves (why many prefer flying with solids, because they "don't" stretch); the need to overcome the airloads on the control surfaces (why we've gone to on board systems with greater authority...longer horns and slower response rates, for instance); the sponginess of feel that comes from having to overcome the bow in the lines due to line drag (an argument for smaller diameters and solids lines which mitigate that bow), and, in the instant case, the springiness and inconsistencies which come from having a significant part of the control mechanism made of a material with inherent springiness and susceptible to taking "sets" from being bent around comparatively sharp radius corners in the handle bar and then being readjusted time after time with each subsequent "set" becoming a built in additional spring. I'm talking about the ubiquitos heavy gauge steel cable in the standard Bob Baron type handle. It is this latter phenomenom that the hard point handle is intended to mitigate.

In the handle instruction sheet I noted that none other than my good flying buddy David Fitzgerald, who favors solid lines...ususally to good advantage but occasionally to his detriment...found that the combination of the hard point handle and the solid lines resulted in response not unlike you describe, Doug. He has chosen to have two set-ups, solids and a cable handle for most conditions and cables and the hard point handle for wet weather...along, of course, with some tiny trim changes to adapt to the heavier, thicker cables.

My personal opinion is that the sorts of issues you bring might also be mitigated with a small trim change. The more direct feel of the hard point handle makes an airplane feel more tail heavy...there is just less lag in response and often, as did a user in San Diego, it is desireable to either move the CG forward (which can also improve line tension in many cases) or narrow the spacing to adapt to the increased responsiveness. This may or may not be responsive to your particular problem, Doug, but it would be interesting to see what would happen with the CG a touch further forward.

Happy Turkey day to all the Moons and their Moonies.

I only tried messing with the handle and not the plane. I am going to give it another go this spring and try some minor, read that easy, trim changes and see if the plane will adapt to the handle. As I moved in the line spacing it didnt act the same as making a small CG adjustment would have. It just seemed to slow the response but I could still very easily over control it. I was only trying to work one of the vatiables at the time.

However I do think people getting on these handles is a very good idea and will help you out in your flying and ability to setuo controls systems.

I will let you know what I find out.

He is using solids. I think that may be the problem.

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The wooden prototypes were very light and pleasant to the hand, but I wasn't happy with the roller adjustment, and worried a little about the strength of its wooden parts.

I had planned on trying to make the frame out of casted resin, with imbedded carbon fiber strands for the tensile portions, plus a soft rubber casting for the grip. Never got a round 'tuit (like so many of my projects)..

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"Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits." -Mark Twain

Mikey

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That's a clever idea.

Mikey,
I would love to have one of those. I had a chance to feel it and it sure is light. It has it's place. If I hadn't known you for almost 30 years I could get ticked. LOL.

Your friend:

Just like that stinkin little Cox 1/2A plane I've been waitin on for the whole year. You show me a picture then tell me I can't have any.

You da Devil Mike!

I don't know that Mikey is the Devil, but I would say that he is probably half so. I don't know about his handle, but you certainly hit the nail on the head about that "stinkin little Cox 1/2A plane." Do you think that plane's postponed release is the reason that Mikey moved back to Flat Montezuma from beautiful, mountainous Colorado? I'm surprised, knowing that he will definitely get some flack about the Hyper Viper, that he even dares to poke his head up here!

That plane is the first CL item I've been able to convince the local hobby shop to stock (He will special order whatever.) in well over six years, since he sold me the last CG Buster he'd had forever. The reason that control line and, to a large degree, Radio Control airplanes are dead for him is that he has a staff of young folks who are "into" War Game figures and RC Cars and take no trouble to learn about anything else. They couldn't answer a question with any minute amount of competence about an engine, fuel, prop or airplane kit if their lives depended upon it.

I was hoping, and I know that he was as well, that the 12 planes he had ordered (Only three were spoken for.) would be available for Christmas sales. I intended to volunteer my services to help any beginners or low time buyers or recipients get theirs into the air with as much success and as little damage as possible. Now that CR has become a nine month snowbird, we new "a few good men" CL pilots here in beautiful, downtown Halibut Guts. It was my hope to get my hands on a bunch of new pilots and hook 'em afore they could get away ! I just hope that hobby shop hasn't now canceled all those extra planes!

Paul Citrin

I think this is a terrific thread for three reasons: 1. We keep reminding each other of the importance of the many details involved in CL Stunt, yet the handle often gets short shrift. 2. There are a ton of different handle designs out there, some of them on this thread, each bearing ideas we can incorporate into our own design. 3. The basic differences in "feel" between cabled and hard-point handles has never been discussed to any great degree, and forecast that this thread will lead to a great many at least trying a hard-point handle.

My near-revelation took place many years ago when a group of us--including PTG, I am proud to point out--took 1/2A Combat to a new level. One of the really serious problems with many of our models was standard cabled handles: The light-tension little guys simply did not pull the cables straight, leaving the flier in a different time zone from the model.

There were several different designs produced, the most successful of which used old AMA lines, .018 diameter, for the leadouts. Yep, they would break from time to time, the constant flexing made this inevitable.

In taking a further look at the situation I took notice of the constant flexure of the cables on our standard handles, decided it would be a good idea to get rid of same on handles used in Slow and Fast. The practicality of actually doing anything about it meant I concentrated on other things. (Yes, I know one can cut their lines to near perfection. But what about the times you want to fly someone else's model, you borrow a set of lines, somebody flies your model, the leadouts on a whole raft of your current models are not cut to the required consistency?)

During one of my early trips to the Soviet Union, probably 1990, several of us went to a local park to fly F2D. I was furnished a hard-point handle. My first reaction was cloddish in nature: Poor Russians, all they can afford is this piece of crap. Three seconds later I remembered these boys would--and will--do just about *anything* to gain an advantage.

There's more to the story, but when I pulled the plug on Combat-related activities, *and* saw Paul flying with his own-design hard-point handle, I was smitten.

I designed my own handle, made a whole bunch of 'em over the years. They work quite well, even had a few NW guys copy them fairly closely. (Although, I must admit, they may have been looking more closely at what Paul was doing.)

Then Ted announced his hard-point handle as available for sale in kit form. Just about the time I was getting ready to fire up Dad's mill, producing a handle of my own which would eclipse the efforts of PW, Ted and myself all in one whack. Even bought a "plus" version of Ted's handle for, uh, ah, shuffle, shuffle, "review" of a suitable piece.

A couple weeks later I gave up and ordered four of Ted's handles in the standard size, narrowing grips to .610 in thickness (thanks for the extra meat, Ted!), relieving the arms to allow my fat hand in there, light 'glass cloth tacked in place with 3M 77 Spray Adhesive, affixed with applications of thin CA. Sanding and painting to match each model, even a red, white, and blue piece to match my new Impact.

As I don't think Ted has any overarching desire to be in the business of supplying handles, I regard this as a generous act which ought be appreciated. And taken advantage of by anyone who has not used a proper hard-point handle.

Yes, even if, maybe especially if, you want to design your own handle. Just as well copy one of the very best, in my opinion *the best* CL Stunt handle of any kind on the market.

"Is it just me or does Dick Byron, whenever he posts something about CL handles, sound defensive? Or angry. Or just sideways with the world for some reason?

Cripes, Dick, I know lots of people who enjoy your handles. I'm not one of them, as I kinda swore off cabled handles a few years ago, but with a following like you've got one would think you to be much happier about the situation than you seem."

Now I know that we are up in here a kinda forgotten part of the country, especially now that Boeing is based in Chicago instead of Seattle, but I really did think at least one or two fellow fliers actually owned a Byron handle.

It was recently mentioned to me by a native the handles in question are actually Bob Baron handles.

I don't have examples of Baron and Byron handles here to compare, but my (increasingly faulty) memory says there are no differences between the two.

Dick, is this true? And I ask as one who has never had any shame whatsoever in copying from others, have as my only regret in many years past not being nearly as aggressive as I should have been in giving credit where it is due in some cases. (Only PTG will know how true that statement really is.)

Still, if your handle is actually a Bob Baron design, it would seem to me this might be acknowledged in some way. Maybe especially as we lost Bob several years ago.

To those bound to stick up for Mr. Byron, I too have heard many positive comments as to his personal generosity, the standards of his work.

Short version: I am not trying to tear down Byron's reputation; but the right thing to do does seem to be in defending Bob Baron's memory and reputation, assuming things truly are as I see them at this moment in time. And I could most certainly be wrong.

I can assure one and all that Baron never gave me much reason to stick up for him in any way. But what is right is always right, even if Bob is gone from our lives.

DAN,
Thanks for the kind words. You may not realise it but I have always stated to any one that would listen that these were not my design, they were Bob Barons design. My original handle was made from seeying Frank Mcmillan's handle when he lived in Omaha , 1975,. I made my own version and I still have it. It is a hard point handle but with the slider in place. When I started to make these for sale ,1990, they were all hard point handles. I sold thru Bill Hopkins in Arlington, Texas. I asked him to give me credit but he refused so I started to sell them myself. For a while Brodak sold them but he wanted to be the exclusive distributor and I just could not do that.I have sold 980 of the hard poind handles and they have worked very well. I had so may requests for the adjustabe type that I started searching for someone to cut the slot in the aluminum. Rolly McDonald did cut 60 for me but I just do not remember the year, Probably 1996 0r 7. When I sold out he just could not make any more so they were not produced any more. At that time every one I showed it to was informed that it was a Baron handle. Supprisingly enough the patent expired in 1986 or 7. I did not know they were ever patented until Bob himself told me that they were at one time when we had lunch in Tucson. Bob and went to Kiev in 1988 He on the stunt team me on the scale team, I helped him with his food requirements a few times. I do feel the he was a genius and his handles were just one sign of that. At no time did I ever state or imply that the slider handles I sold were anything but a copy of the Barron handle. NEVER.
As a matter of fact Bob was happy to see them made again as he did not want to do any more himself.

On a trip to Amarillo texas several years ago, maybe 1998 or 9 I went into Harbor Freight and found a Chinese mill for $495.00. Wow, I purchased it there and drove back to Grand prairie. I could now cut my own slots. I have made about 320 more that are the slider type.

There is a heck of a lot of work in these and I do it as an act of love of the Hobby. I have always felt the experimenting with different handles was good and whatever work for you was the best thing to use.
You know Bob Gieseke told me that Billy Werwage used one of my haldles at the team trials. He has about 12 of them.

As a mater of fact I still have 19 hard point bars left that will fit the large size handle. They are a lot easier to make and much less expensive to sell. I will Have some in Tucson in March.

I hope this clears this up for everyone.

Paul;

I don't know if it is the first, but I have had a few of these for years, and they are good handles. I had to drill some additional adjustment holes for finer tuning.

Feedback and feel on these are great. Not quite as good as Ted's new handles, but very good.

I believe this was a Tatone handle. I still have one in the drawer that I've had since I was a kid.

What was his fate in the movie?

By the way, the actual quote was:

"Badges? What badges? I don't got to show you no stinkin' badges"!

Bogey to handles in Two Degrees of Freedom...what a wonderful world.

Made em dig his grave, then shot it.

They said:

"Gringos estupidos, callegan arena en los burros!"

(Stupid gringos, they carry sand on their mules!)

And the wind blows away all that gold dust...

Getting back to handles, my main handle is a Bob Baron style handle. I have two more I was making but haven't finished (I "need" a knurling tool for the adjustment nut). I also have two of Ted's handles--finally finished them.

If the main objection to the Baron style handle is the too stiff cable, I would think going to a thinner or more flexible cable (less springy) might fix this apparent difficulty. Once we get back to spring (as in the season!), I think I'll try to make this modification. Of course I am not sure I can really feel detect the difference at my level of expertise.

well the ##### is just dam+n, just so you all know it isn't some other word! Maybe should have said "darn".

You may be correct. While I would have to watch the movie again to get the real, entire quote, I do know that the character you ask about was called Gold Hat and was played by Alfonso Bedoya.

EDIT: One of the problems with the way I read the threads on this forum, i.e., to read what's marked as new, and then to respond as I come to a message that cries out for a response, is that someone else may have already answered the question. I saw after this response, while reading the "One guy's perspective......." thread, that jaco had already answered this one. I apologize for the duplication.

Very interesting look you got with your handle.

In fact,I am very amazed with the many varieties so far posted here and I am sure this is not all.

As an ergonomic important piece of the Control Line modelling aircraft (ergonomic because we think it should be) the handles are for me what many here have posted already. What is good for one is not necessarily good the other and maybe that is the reason why some people like blue colours and others red..

Anyhow, just a quick post to say that I am more than happy with the photos exchanges and ideas.

Agora sim, o ambiente ficou distinto!!

Um abração,

I've knonw it for long, very long. I just kept under the scene and observed before enrolling.

Cheers,

Don't mess with him on Chipmunk kits and Bogart movies.

It proves that a lot of you fellows are available to share, contribute and exchange opinions about this passion and of course, it means that this Forum is of top quality.

The whole story behind my Flying Models site is to share ideas and immortalize facts and concepts to our loveable community, the control-line community around the planet.

I have gathered all the information herein posted (photos, I mean) and compiled a page dedicated to handles in the Aeromodelos.net.

The idea is to have a permanent source of inspiration to visitors being them veterans, newcomers but sometimes future modellers that are certainly to become.

Have a go at : www.aeromodelos.net to see it

Thank you all.

Thanks for the info.

Hi Ty,

I believe you are referring to Doug Dalhke and his collection.

Bill <><