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New format for the 2004 Nats!!!

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DMoon · Nov 27, 2003 11:06 PM

#0 source
I read in SN where there will be a new format for the Advanced and Open qualifying rounds. They will lump all contestants together to help with the anticipated increase in Open entries. Then seperate the scores on the boards. Great Idea! (Wish I had thought of it(oh I did about two years ago...)

BULLITIN!! BULLITIN!! For the Advanced guy who really wants to see where he lands in the Nats relm and is thinking of moving up but just cant quite figure it out...BE THERE!!! This will be a great chance to fly with/against the greats of the sport and be judged right along side them. Wow this year the Nats is going to be really cool I cant wait! You will be able to fly right after Ted or David or Brett or PW or Windy and see how you fair in front of their judges in the very same round.

There was a thread about two years ago about when to move from ADV to OPEN at the Nats. There is a score overlap on the board but you cant really gauge from numbers on the board. It is really two seperate contests. I was saying that at the Nats if it were just one large contest on the circles and not seperated by Skill Class except for on the board only, you would have a much better feel for where you really stand at the Nats level. I immediatly got shot down by some of the more experienced flyers and people who have formulated the current way the qualifying rounds and the way contest is run. I understand this current format came from many years of hard work and much dedication to those who fly toy airplanes. AND I THANK YOU FOR IT!! I just thought a one society contest on the circles would really tell people where they stand and when movement would be a good choice and so on. I know I had no idea where I would shake out and just went for it. The Advanced trophy was my nemisis for a few years so I just bypassed that bad boy all together.

Many were telling me that the death of stunt was on the way until Skill Classes were intorduced. Those missed my point completely. I never said ever to remove skill classes. All I said was to do EXACTLY what they are doing now in anticipation for the rise in Open entries. I think it will be great.

What do you all think?

Doug Moon

peabody · Nov 28, 2003 03:54 PM

#1 source
Dave Cook and the living Buffalano have both done extensive crunching as to how to achieve the best, fairest and most realistic performance from judges......and it pretty much boils down to having the judges watch flyers that are close in performance....either increasing or decreasing, but in order. Dave is a big proponent of flying low to hign...and has statistics to prove it all.

Varying from a poor Advanced level flyer such as me to a flyer of Ted's quality then back to another dummy like me, then to a Walker level guy has to skew the results someway.

What I do like about the new format is that (at least during qualifying) the Advanced guys will get the same judges as the Open flyers.... they pay the same money, they deserve the best judges available....I dislike the whole concept of "grading" judges during the event...if the don't stack up, don't ask them back.

See Ya

Peabody

Ted Fancher · Nov 30, 2003 12:42 PM

#5 source
>What I do like about the new format is that (at least during
>qualifying) the Advanced guys will get the same judges as
>the Open flyers.... they pay the same money, they deserve
>the best judges available....I dislike the whole concept of
>"grading" judges during the event...if the don't stack up,
>don't ask them back.
>
>See Ya
>
>Peabody

Rich,

I think it is important to note that, even under the current format, the advanced flyers fly in front of the same judges as do the open flyers during qualifying. This procedure, quite frankly, is more for the benefit of the judges than the pilots.

The current format has four circles with four sets of judges who stay on their circle for both days of qualifying. The flyers are broken down into advanced and open groups and fly a round on two different circles, one round each day. A given group of Advanced flyers, for instance will fly on Circle one the first day and Circle Three the second. Simulataneously, a group of Open flyers will fly on cirlce three the first day and circle one the second. The other two groups and cirlces make the same switch.

Thus, each team of judges evaluates an advanced group on one day and an open group on the other. Good, bad or ugly, every flyer and every judge gets exposed in the same fashion to the same mix of their opposite number.

Judges for subsequent rounds evaluate, indeed, distinctively either advanced or open contestants.

It is sometimes thought of as "punishment for inferior performance" when a judge is assigned to other than the "premier" event of the day. While it wouldn't be totally factual to deny this probably happens, most often the reasons for such assignments have a lot to do with entirely separate distinctions. Where they are from, who they routinely fly with or judge at home, their relationship to flyers they may have to evaluate etc. To say nothing, of course, about the fact that somebody has to judge the other events or else you can't hold 'em!

Just thought it was important to let every one know that, to the greatest degree possible, the administrators do their very best to expose all of the flyers and all of the judges to as great a cross section of their opposite number as possible and still accomplish the goals of the competition itself. Another way in which they try to balance the needs for "competition" and the desire for as pleasant as possible an experience for all involved. Often times it's not easy.

Ted

Trostle · Nov 30, 2003 04:38 PM

#6 source
>>What I do like about the new format is that (at least during
>>qualifying) the Advanced guys will get the same judges as
>>the Open flyers.... they pay the same money, they deserve
>>the best judges available....I dislike the whole concept of
>>"grading" judges during the event...if the don't stack up,
>>don't ask them back.
>>
>>See Ya
>>
>>Peabody
>
>Rich,
>
>I think it is important to note that, even under the current
>format, the advanced flyers fly in front of the same judges
>as do the open flyers during qualifying. This procedure,
>quite frankly, is more for the benefit of the judges than
>the pilots.

>Thus, each team of judges evaluates an advanced group on one
>day and an open group on the other. Good, bad or ugly,
>every flyer and every judge gets exposed in the same fashion
>to the same mix of their opposite number.
>
>Judges for subsequent rounds evaluate, indeed, distinctively
>either advanced or open contestants.
>
>It is sometimes thought of as "punishment for inferior
>performance" when a judge is assigned to other than the
>"premier" event of the day. While it wouldn't be totally
>factual to deny this probably happens, most often the
>reasons for such assignments have a lot to do with entirely
>separate distinctions. Where they are from, who they
>routinely fly with or judge at home, their relationship to
>flyers they may have to evaluate etc. To say nothing, of
>course, about the fact that somebody has to judge the other
>events or else you can't hold 'em!
>
>Just thought it was important to let every one know that, to
>the greatest degree possible, the administrators do their
>very best to expose all of the flyers and all of the judges
>to as great a cross section of their opposite number as
>possible and still accomplish the goals of the competition
>itself. Another way in which they try to balance the needs
>for "competition" and the desire for as pleasant as possible
>an experience for all involved. Often times it's not easy.
>
>Ted

Ted,

Thanks for explaining something that many who attend the Nats do not know or understand regarding how judges are used and assigned. Rich Peabody has even been a judge at the Nats on several occasions and evidently still did not know or choose to understand how the Nats administration (read that as Warren Tiahrt and Gary McClellan) manages the judging corps. Or maybe it is just that Rich likes to stir the pot. He has not done so for a while and it appears that he was due.

Keith

captcurt · Nov 30, 2003 08:47 AM

#2 source
Hi Doug:

I too would welcome an opportunity to see where I stand against the best. But...one thing this will cause is a reduction of the span available for scoring. This will be the case at both ends. I understand that this should not be a problem as long as everyone is scoring against a fixed scale as is supposed to be the case. There has been alot of talk lately regarding use of more of a range available when scoring.

Will this "compression" of each end of the range be an issue with both classes together?

Curt

Ted Fancher · Nov 30, 2003 12:01 PM

#3 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-03 AT 02:07 PM (CST)
 
Hi Doug,

Really interesting question and, as often happens, there is more of interest in the history of the event than you are likely aware of...because you weren't there yet!

As a matter of fact, when the current four circle format was initiated and at the time that Rolly McDonald and (I think Big Art but it might have been Jack Sheeks...old-timers setting in) instituted the skill class system into that format we were actually doing exacly what is now being discussed as the "new" format. For several years the advanced and open contestants flew "mixed together" on the four circles. The judges were not informed of who was flying in what class and the only distinction was the scoreboard on which the scores were posted. After qualifying, the breakdown for semi-finals for open and (at that time) finals for the advanced class, was pretty much the same as now, i.e. separate competitions in front of separate judges.

I agree now and did then with your suggestion that that was a superior method of actually integrating the classes so that the results actually were indicative of the skill difference between those who chose to fly one skill level or another.

This method was changed (unfortunately, again IMHO) for pretty much the reasons you addressed in your original post. Some people felt it was too difficult for the judges to somehow make this huge change in mental perceptivity to be able to fairly compare the efforts of an advanced flyer and immediately thereafter an open flyer. I thought then and continue to feel this is a great disservice to those hard working and competent individuals who volunteer to judge our affairs.

I think, Doug, you are probably the poster boy for why the resulting system failed to provide a realistic distinction between the advanced and open flyers at the nats. You spent a number of years working hard to try to achieve what you thought was an important stepping stone to legitimize your entry in open vice advanced. You felt it was necessary to win the advanced class before you would feel validated.

When, for whatever reason, you ultimately decided you were spinning your wheels and wasting valuable seasons in that endeavor you entered open and immediately not only increased your "scores" dramatically but found yourself flying at least one more day than you probably felt was likely to happen! For those unfamiliar with the recent past at the nats, this means that Dougie qualified for the Top Five Flyoffs the first time he flew in Open! An awesome, likely unprecedented happening.

Did you actually fly that much better than the year before when your "scores" were significantly lower and you failed to beat all of the 40 or so other entries who felt unqualified to compete in Open? You certainly did fly better...but not, I submit, "that" much better.

What really happened, in my opinion, is that the "qualification" of your flying, the "scores" I put in quotes above, were significantly effected by the sort of "pre-flying manipulation of outcome" that is produced by administrative schemes that pre-select" the level of competence of the contestant. By that I include the structured separation of classes during qualification at the Nats or other big contests you addressed, Doug; the between rounds manipulation of second round flying order by virtue of "increasing or decreasing level of performance" as mentioned by P'body (I thought that was why we were flying...to decide what the proper ranking of performance is on a given day. If we already know we could all save a lot of gas and spend some time at home with the wife and kids!); and, most especially, the terrible suggestion to judges that flyers of a given class should receive maneuver scores in a certain narrow range...advanced, 28 to 32 and open, 31 to 35 or some such arbitrary range of scores.

The influence of these sorts of administrative manipulations on the outcome of events is, I feel, much more invasive and disruptive to the ultimate ranking of flyers than is any possible confusion on the part of a judge when flyers perform maneuvers that aren't all of the same degree of perfection from flight to flight. That is, after all, their job; one which they must perform not only flight to flight but within a given flight wherein it is entirely possible for an open flyer to fly a maneuver worthy of only a modest score...to say nothing of the possibility of an advanced flyer doing a perfect one. Once again, determining the quality of each individual maneuver is what the judges get the big bucks for!

Once again, I think it is almost indisputable that your experience in back to back nats is as clear a piece of evidence as one could hope to witness in an event so dependent on subjectivity for the ultimate picking of winners and losers.

The only form of administrative manipulation of flight orders with which I am reluctantly in agreement is the need for seeding flyers into circles when the number of entries is high and the quality of flyers involved can be at such disparate levels. This is a very difficult task and, like most people picking stocks to buy, depends an awful lot on past performance. Not sure there is any other way.

The process is arguably justifiable, however, because the possibility of a total random selection making the range of competence of one circle vice another so great that clearly inferior pilots will "by process" end up qualifying for succeeding rounds due simply to the fact that all the "better" flyers end up beating each other into submission on the "tough" circle. Imperfect but necessary, in my mind, until somebody can think of some magic way to get around the problem.

More than you wanted to know, probably, Doug. But I was sure you would be interested to know that not everybody felt the current system was inherently preferable to what you thought was a new idea but was actually a reality for a number of years!

I'll be very interested to see what the range of opinions from others on the forum is on this subject.

Ted

Bill Little · Nov 30, 2003 12:17 PM

#4 source
I am much more in favor of everyone flying in front of the same sets of judges. It will not be a monumental task yo separate the scores on the scoreboards. Best idea, by far, for me!
Bill <><


Dont worry about the mule going blind 'til you get the cart loaded!

bhadley0 · Nov 30, 2003 08:37 PM

#7 source
Having not flown at a NATS my opinion isnt based on experience, but this does seem like a better deal for the Advanced flyer. Since I am planning on flying in my first NATS this year, and I will be flying Advanced, I like the idea of mixing it up with the "big boys".
However, one consideration to think of... If an advanced competitor came up with the highest score, of either class, wouldnt this somehow take something away from the open class winner?
Just a real hypothetical thought
Brian

LNeumann · Nov 30, 2003 09:10 PM

#8 source

>However, one consideration to think of... If an advanced
>competitor came up with the highest score, of either class,
>wouldnt this somehow take something away from the open class
>winner?
>Just a real hypothetical thought
>Brian

No, it would just show he was in the wrong class. I think there are a few advanced class flyers who need to move up anyway, and this may be a good way for them to see this.

And, by the way, they do not have to feel that they need to be able to make the top 20 before moving up. If that is true, then we should only have 20 contestants in each category.

Leonard Neumann

DMoon · Dec 02, 2003 12:02 PM

#13 source
Len,

You have been saying this for some time now. I and many others like me have to travel along long way to get to the nats, 136+ hours, and that is short compared to many of the guys. Being competitive is something we all want, as competitors. I mean all the other stuff during the week is GREAT but I do go there to be competitive. I ran in Adv for along time, 6 years. I was always right on the edge of winning it. That would have been a great accomplishment. Sure there are some guys that COULD move up but they are trying to accomplish the task of winning that event. I have always aspired to get to Open. So moving on was an option. Did I know where I would fall? Heck no! The system does not yield a good way to measure my talents agianst the open competitors in tis current form. I just went for it. Advacned at the Nats is not the same as a local meet neither is Open. It is just a different ballgame. You go and loose to Ted in CA at a local meet by 15points and you get fourth place. You do it at the Nats and you might not fly on Friday. It is big factor in deciding if you want to travel 1300 miles to the contest and chew up a week of vacation. Many may not say it is so but it IS.

I feel as Ted does that mixing it in would be very beneficial to the flyers. Also I agree with Ted on many of his views on this.

One step further. What if we left the judges where they are as we do now but the pilots moved from circle to circle for EACH round. Then by the end of two days we have flown in front of every judge not just half of them. That way all pilots are judged by all judges at one time or another during the first two days. Day one I fly on 1 and 3 and day two I fly on 2 and 4. Something to think about...


Doug Moon

LNeumann · Dec 02, 2003 12:20 PM

#14 source

>
>One step further. What if we left the judges where they are
>as we do now but the pilots moved from circle to circle for
>EACH round. Then by the end of two days we have flown in
>front of every judge not just half of them. That way all
>pilots are judged by all judges at one time or another
>during the first two days. Day one I fly on 1 and 3 and day
>two I fly on 2 and 4. Something to think about...

I have no problem with flying Advanced and Open flyers together on the same circle. Switching circles in the same day, however, could cause its own set of problems. We all know that there are differences in judges. If they are consistent from flyer to flyer it is OK, but what if I do my mulligan round on the circle with the high scoring judges. I can't go back and fly a second round in front of them. I think the idea of giving a throw away score is good, but then it must be done in front of the same judges.

There is also the problem of balooning scores, and we can't solve everything at once. If you fly in the morning against the "tough" judges and I fly in the afternoon against them and the scores are rising, I get the benefit and you get hurt. It isn't supposed to happen, but it does.

Nothing is perfect, though, and we live with our own frailties.

Leonard Neumann

DMoon · Dec 02, 2003 02:54 PM

#15 source
Your points are very valid. I am always thinking and wondering stuff. However there would be a throw aways with what I said just as there are now. You only take your best one from the day. But it probably wouldnt work out to good but I was just thinking aloud.

Doug Moon

Alfadawg · Dec 01, 2003 07:29 AM

#9 source
I mostly agree that Nat's judges can be objective as to scoring the flight, not the pilot or the class being judged. A 33 point maneuver is the same in any class and should be seen as such. No problem with this. I do have some issues with mixing the classes together, though, as the advanced class is the last stepping stone to either Open or Expert. Those that feel the need to see how they stack up in the upper level classes are only fooling themselves. If you feel that you are competitive, then move on up! If not, stay in whatever class you feel comfortable in. The Advanced class is still a learning class. Once you have learned all you can in Advanced, move to the next class. Though nothing is perfect, I feel the present Nat's format is pretty close and as fair as possible while being a subjectively judged event. RJ

LNeumann · Dec 01, 2003 08:13 AM

#10 source
> (snip) as the advanced class is the last stepping stone to
?either Open or Expert. Those that feel the need to see how
>they stack up in the upper level classes are only fooling >themselves. If you feel that you are competitive, then move
>on up! If not, stay in whatever class you feel comfortable
>in. The Advanced class is still a learning class. Once you
>have learned all you can in Advanced, move to the next class.
> RJ

What we are going to see is a lot of overlap. Several in the upper rungs of Advanced could probably have made the top 20 (or close) in Open and should have been flying there instead. This year may be different with a lot of world class flyers there who could possibly be entering in either event. (And lets face it, a lot of the guys who enter the worlds should be entering the Advanced class at our Nats, and a lot of the guys who would normally make the top 20 in our Nats--in both classes--won't when they are beaten out by some of the worlds competitors.)

But one of the biggest fallacies that many of the Advanced flyers face is that they want to immediately qualify in the top 20 in Open if they move up. That cannot and should not be. Ideally (to me) a top ranked Advanced class flyer should move up into the bottom ranks of Open. If 40 guys enter to compete in Open we should not feel that the bottom 20 do not belong there. Else, why have qualifying? Just let the best 20 fly in Open, the next 20 fly in Advanced, and so on. You can see how silly that is. This is qualifying of the best for the best, and many a good flyer does not qualify for the next round and should not feel bad about it. (It is just incentive for him to say, "wait until next year." And then practice to work on his flaws. No Mulligans here. That's why you get two flights with a throwaway.)

Leonard Neumann

EddyR · Dec 01, 2003 08:43 AM

#11 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-01-03 AT 09:05 AM (CST)
 
I flew at the 1988 nats the first year for Advanced and I flew the Advanced class and had no problem flying between two top ten flyers.I believe you get a better feel for your ability. I came back and added this so advanced flyers can see the advantage of flying with the open flyers. I flew well at the 88 nats but lost pattern points as I did a extra loop in the overhead eight. I went home and started to fly Expert and had to fly against Bill Rich,Randy Smith,Gene Martine,Tom Dixon. I stopped flying Pampa class and only flew old time and classic in 1993. This year in entered Expert at Huntersville. This was my first pampa class flight in ten years and I was last but it felt good to fly with the Experts again.
Ed

LNeumann · Dec 01, 2003 09:14 AM

#12 source
It is not always about trophies. At least, I hope not. Just as only one person can win in any specific contest, so someone also has to come in last. And there are a couple of flyers who enter open every year and who come in at the bottom of the pack. But they have fun. They enjoy the competition even though they know they don't stand a chance. The goal should not be to look at the top, but merely to look at the guy in front of you. Work to beat him. Then chase the next guy. And if you happen to be the guy who is fading back, well, that happens to all of us. There is nothing wrong with continuing to fly for the fun of it.

Leonard Neumann