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One guy's perspective on recent stunt handle histo

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Ted Fancher · Nov 28, 2003 11:28 AM

#0 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-28-03 AT 11:34 AM (CST)
 
The following just for discussion's sake and for the interest of forum readers who may not be familiar with the semi-recent history of stunt handles in the US.

It's interesting to note that most of the currently available bar and cable style of handle are closely patterned after a truly original concept that was designed, published and patented by Bob Baron (one of the true innovators of our event...see the thread on Wild Bill's Barecat series) sometime back in the '60s as I recall. It was a significant advance and became the standard for stunt handle design in the states for literally decades.

There was, in fact, an attempt to produce a version of the handle while Bob was still alive by an individual who was not aware of the patent. He, of course, stopped producing them when he was advised of the infringement problem. It is my (uninformed) understanding that no actual legal procedings ever emanated from that short period of production, but it is nonetheless true that a significant number of "Bob Baron style" handles became regular parts of competition stunt from then on. Most of today's "bar and cable" type of handles available from a number of sources owe their inspiration to Bob's vision.

I was one of the many fortunate purchasers of these handles and immediately appreciated the adjustability aspects. I was not totally pleased with them in actual use, however, because, like Doug mentioned on the other thread on handles, I couldn't get the quality of pattern I had previously, even when the Baron style was adjusted to "match" my previous very slightly modified EZ-Just Hot Rock.

Thus came one of my first "personal" revelations about handle design. Upon replacing the Baron style with the Hot Rock the quality of my pattern magically returned...as did a little light bulb over my head. For the first time, upon returning to the Hot Rock, I was aware of the tiny pressures I used for minute flight path adjustments with the index and little fingers against the protruding arms of the Hot Rock...an element missing from the Baron style (and most of the modern similar versions). In one flight it became obvious the difference between the quality of patterns was the result of my inability to make these tiny corrections because the Baron style handle, like many its imitators, has no arms against which to make these inputs.

This revelation led me to go to the shop and modify the Baron style so that it had "arms" on it just like the Hot Rock. This handle was immediately "nearly" perfect. I modified my other Baron Style the same way and used those two handles exclusively for many years, winning two national championships and Walker Cups, plus places on two US Teams with them.

I was obviously perfectly happy with these handles right up to the time I had my second "revelation" in Shanghai while caddiing for Paul. Again, stealing freely from someone just a bit wiser than myself, I determined that I could further improve my performance with the hard point style handle I now use and encourage others to try.

After making my first hand-made version I managed to win two more Walker Cups and make another US Team with the handle as part of my arsenal. I'm pleased to report that several well known flyers, including Bobby Hunt, have chosen to switch to this handle because they feel it actually makes a difference in their performance.

Ted

p.s.

The following is important to me personally because of some vituperative exchanges that unfortunately showed up on the other handle thread. Please forgive me for feeling the necessity to state the following.

I don't care a lot whether others buy my handles or not. They are available and I'm happy to share them with those interested enough to give them a try, but handle sales aren't an issue with me. I had the kits made because I had many requests from people I admire for the small number of parts made to my design by a good friend back east several years ago. In a short period all of "my" parts were pretty much gone! I had another good friend investigate getting parts laser cut and finally went the final step of getting some made and letting people, mostly by word of mouth, know they were available.

They've never been "advertised" and the ones I have will either be sold or they won't. It really isn't important to me. Nor is it important to me that all of you must "see the light" and switch to hard point handles simply because I like them.

I mentioned the handles on SSW and nowhere else ... although the editor of a major commercial magazine called and asked if they could write a "new products" review after trying one out. I thanked him but declined since I've no interest in becoming a "supplier". I'm a stunt flyer, that's pretty much all I want to be. My ego is just fine with just letting people know what my opinion is...and why. That's why appreciate this forum so much.

Despite suggestions to the contrary, I have no personal animosity toward anyone else selling handles or any other stunt related item as long as the items are safe and do the job they are intended to do. I don't off the top of my head know of any current offerings that don't meet those criteria.

DICKBYRON · Nov 28, 2003 11:57 AM

RE: One guy's perspective on recent stunt handle h#1 source
Ted,
Did you read #49 on the RE: The handle you use?
Please do.

cyberflyer · Nov 28, 2003 01:00 PM

Apologies? You want aplogies? We don't gotta give#4 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-28-03 AT 09:42 PM (CST)
 
>Ted,
> Did you read #49 on the RE: The handle you use?
>Please do.


Dick:

Give it a rest.

Cy.

The Cat Whisperer

bkruger · Nov 28, 2003 08:29 PM

RE: One guy's perspective on recent stunt handle h#8 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-28-03 AT 10:10 PM (CST)
 
>Ted,
> Did you read #49 on the RE: The handle you use?
>Please do.

Dick;

I'm trying to make sense of this. Is your angst caused by the fact that Ted disagrees with you that your cabled handle design or cabled handle designs in general as being superior, or the fact that Ted's comment might bite into your business?

If the latter, why not make two handle selections available. One would be your cabled design, the other a hard point design. Let the buyers chose.

If the former, then the advice to lighten up is in order. Last time I checked, a person can voice their opinion and disagree without having to issue a formal apology.

Bob

preston · Nov 28, 2003 09:16 PM

RE: One guy's perspective on recent stunt handle h#9 source
I think Dick is angry becase Ted wrote something like
"every mature person in America knows...", which Dick interpeted
as Ted suggesting that Dick was acting immaturely. I think
Or maybe Ted meant every person in America over the age of 30,
taking into account that kids today don't know of Cheech and Chong.

Too bad this discussion isn't taking place on the field
where they could stick out their tongues at each other, laugh,
and get on with flying. Instead, it's immortalized here,
for people all over the world to wonder at.

Preston

cyberflyer · Nov 28, 2003 09:39 PM

We don't need no stinkin' arguments.#10 source

Dick is apparently unaware of an icon in American movie history, a film directed by John Huston, staring his father, Walter Huston, and Humphrey Bogart approaching the apex of his career in a unique role.

John Huston made Humphrey Bogart and his own career by directing the Maltese Falcon, this was a further collaboration.

Trapped by a group of Mexican Banditos at the mother lode of a minor gold strike--enough to change his life forever. Bogart's character asks the head bandit, who is claiming to be a Federale, to produce his badge.

Badges? the amused and then enraged Bandit wonders out loud?

Badges? You want we show you Badges? says the Bandit knowing his gun is his 'Badge'.

We don't need no stinkin' badges! he says, confirming the obvious and folding Bogart's bluff.

The line has roughly the same cultural notoriety as "Play it again, Sam"--the line that was never said in Casablanca.

As for sense of humor, Dick doesn't need no stinkin' sense of humor.

Blowing the misdirected non-implication of a reference to a Cheech and Chong movie, Dick sends us on a link chase to find out that he demands an apology from Ted.

I don't need go hand follow a back thread from someone who can't figure out enough to post a link to send me there at a click just to end up in a personal war over who invented the solid point hot rock and who gave the US team some cable based handles.

Take it off line.

Have a sense of humor.

Or both.

I've had many a thing I posted with good intent be misinterpreted when condensed to text, there is no need to deliberately grumpy with folks.

Whatever Dick's problem with Ted is, I don't suspect it contributes materially to my experience of reading the board.

This forum is great for asking questions, giving answers, posing and discussing aerodynamic theories, sharing construction techniques, projects, color schemes, motor theory and operations, flight experiences, lore, and legend.

Demanding apologies, however is pointless in this medium.

Save it for the email.

My two sense.

Cy.

The Cat Whisperer

jaco · Nov 28, 2003 10:19 PM

RE: We don't need no stinkin' arguments.#11 source
>
>Dick is apparently unaware of an icon in American movie
>history, a film directed by John Huston, staring his father,
>Walter Huston, and Humphrey Bogart approaching the apex of
>his career in a unique role.
>
>
>My two sense.
>
>Cy.

"Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges.
I don't have to show you any stinking badges!"

--Gold Hat, as played by Alfonso Bedoya
"The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" (1948)

cyberflyer · Nov 28, 2003 11:15 PM

RE: We don't need no stinkin' arguments.#12 source

Yeah.

Him.

That's the guy.

He has no need for any form of official documentation.

Cy.


The Cat Whisperer

DICKBYRON · Nov 29, 2003 10:03 AM

RE: One guy's perspective on recent stunt handle h#13 source
>I think Dick is angry becase Ted wrote something like
>"every mature person in America knows...", which Dick
>interpeted
>as Ted suggesting that Dick was acting immaturely. I think
>
>Or maybe Ted meant every person in America over the age of
>30,
>taking into account that kids today don't know of Cheech and
>Chong.
>
>Too bad this discussion isn't taking place on the field
>where they could stick out their tongues at each other,
>laugh,
>and get on with flying. Instead, it's immortalized here,
>for people all over the world to wonder at.
>
>Preston

Yes that was my interpretation, it now seems I was wrong.

Randy · Nov 28, 2003 12:02 PM

RE: One guy's perspective on recent stunt handle h#2 source
Ted,

It's ben my experience that you have always been a gentleman and of enormous help to any willing to listen.

The handles are pretty cool, too.

Randy Powell

Mikey · Nov 28, 2003 12:38 PM

RE: One guy's perspective on recent stunt handle h#3 source
Ted,
e-mail me at mikey@sigmfg.

Mike Pratt

Ted Fancher · Nov 28, 2003 01:45 PM

RE: One guy's perspective on recent stunt handle h#5 source
>Ted,
>e-mail me at mikey@sigmfg.

Mikey,

I tried but it bounced back. I sent you a "private message" via the SSW system instead. You should get a little"private message" symbol up in the top left of the opening SSW page.

Missed you, man. Look forward to hearing from you.

Ted

dirtydan · Nov 28, 2003 02:37 PM

RE: One guy's perspective on recent stunt handle h#6 source
Hmmm...

I guess a complete review would have been advised, but I made an entry on the other handle thread, the *long* one, prior to seeing this.

I'm not going to repeat the effort, but posts N.62 and N.63 may be of interest to anyone clicking on this one.

Dan

R3C2 · Nov 28, 2003 04:19 PM

RE: One guy's perspective on recent stunt handle h#7 source
DEMAND AN --------!!! I think I would tread a little softer than that, Teds Governor is the Terminator!!

DICKBYRON · Nov 29, 2003 10:05 AM

RE: One guy's perspective on recent stunt handle h#14 source
>DEMAND AN --------!!! I think I would tread a little softer
>than that, Teds Governor is the Terminator!!


OPS! Your right. I have decided to put this behind me and move on. By the way the first 980 handles I made were hard point.

DICKBYRON · Nov 29, 2003 10:36 AM

RE: One guy's perspective on recent stunt handle h#15 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-03 AT 10:36 AM (CST)
 
>>DEMAND AN --------!!! I think I would tread a little softer
>>than that, Teds Governor is the Terminator!!
>
>
>OPS! Your right. I have decided to put this behind me and
>move on. By the way the first 980 handles I made were hard
>point.

Her is a photo I just took. The first on the right Is the origional handle. The second is the one style I sold the most of. The third is just a rubber coated grip. No good. To slippery.

DICKBYRON · Nov 29, 2003 10:42 AM

RE: One guy's perspective on recent stunt handle h#16 source
>>>DEMAND AN --------!!! I think I would tread a little softer
>>>than that, Teds Governor is the Terminator!!
>>
>>
>>OPS! Your right. I have decided to put this behind me and
>>move on. By the way the first 980 handles I made were hard
>>point.
>
>Her is a photo I just took. The first on the right Is the
>origional handle. The second is the one style I sold the
>most of. The third is just a rubber coated grip. No good. To
>slippery.
Or should I say there ain't no stinkin cables here.

Steven Yampolsky · Nov 29, 2003 10:56 AM

RE: One guy's perspective on recent stunt handle h#17 source
Hey! I just realized where I got my handle 10 years ago! I have the middle one and it's great! You should bring them back!

Steven Yampolsky

DICKBYRON · Nov 29, 2003 01:02 PM

RE: One guy's perspective on recent stunt handle h#18 source
>Hey! I just realized where I got my handle 10 years ago! I
>have the middle one and it's great! You should bring them
>back!
>
>Steven Yampolsky

STEVE,
I will have some soon, both large and small. Probably not until Tucson. Just look at new products for the release.

Thanks:

Steven Yampolsky · Dec 10, 2003 12:13 PM

RE: One guy's perspective on recent stunt handle h#19 source
Here's a silly question:
Is it possible to have hardpoints to sit on a slider instead of having fixed holes?
I am having an issue with my plane where on a 3 inch setting, I need just a tad bit of extra sensitivity. On a 4 inch setting, it is too sensitive. It would be real nice to be able to adjust spacing in smaller increments. I am going to try and drill extra holes to see if it helps but I'm worried that I may weaken the bar with extra holes.

Steven Yampolsky

DICKBYRON · Dec 10, 2003 02:18 PM

RE: One guy's perspective on recent stunt handle h#21 source
>Here's a silly question:
>Is it possible to have hardpoints to sit on a slider instead
>of having fixed holes?
>I am having an issue with my plane where on a 3 inch
>setting, I need just a tad bit of extra sensitivity. On a 4
>inch setting, it is too sensitive. It would be real nice to
>be able to adjust spacing in smaller increments. I am going
>to try and drill extra holes to see if it helps but I'm
>worried that I may weaken the bar with extra holes.
>
>Steven Yampolsky
Steve take a look at the 1975 origional copy of the baron handle. It actually does have the hard point with the slider in place. I will make those if there is any response. I you want one I will make it. Let me know.
[email protected]

Larry Cunningham · Dec 10, 2003 01:06 PM

RE: One guy's perspective on recent stunt handle h#20 source
With all due respect to the late Bob Baron, I find myself fairly unimpressed by the "bar and cable" flight handle design, and don't think it's really innovative enough to be patented.

But I clearly lack understanding about patents. Though I hold two of them for telemetry components, and the first one listed 53 "novel points", according to the patent lawyer who prepared it.. (I would have never made such a claim myself, those "novel points" were simple applications of engineering methods I use regularly in electronic design work..).

I'm not "dissing" that design, I see nothing wrong with it functionally and it is obvious a very practical, simple solution. I simply fail to see it as some significant innovation. Obviously, Bob was granted a patent, so again, what do I really know about it? (Not much.)

Often, the simplest patents are the most valuable (e.g. safety pin!).

(OK, now, go ahead and beat me|bite me|make me feel dirty..)

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"Ah, mind-taxing time again, is it?" -Marvin