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Rules Proposal

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Alan Resinger · Nov 30, 2003 11:03 AM

Rules Proposal#0 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-03 AT 12:18 PM (CST)
 
After watching "Animal House" a couple of weeks ago I decided a "Road Trip" was in order. Calling on Chris Cox for a partner, we decided to take a trip to Seattle to visit with PW and maybe stop by and visit with Howard. Besides, Chris wanted to stop by Boeing surplus to look for some more tools for his expanding inventory with which to work on his RV-7. E-mailed PW and set up a Saturday date. On the trip down I-5 Chris and I talked about making some new propeller molds and also spent quite a bit of time discussing the pros of his new Fancher handle. We both use hard point handles but Chris just couldn't pass up on Ted's handle when he could get one while down in Clovis in October.
Upon arrival at the Walker household we found Paul in the shop busy as usual working on a set of replacement wing panels for last years Miss America. Seems that he thought that balsa was sufficient to use as landing gear mounts in the original. There were also some minor structural problens with the originals which led to at least one case of wing flutter or should I call it wing panel flutter as it drifts to the ground, with the rest of the plane flying along with only the inboard wing. I've had it happen to me with a take apart and it isn't fun.
We were also given a sneak peak at next years Miss America which is just short of having the final construction finished. Typical of Paul's workmanship and it looks to be coming in as a real lightweight. Probably will end upo in the mid 50 oz range with the Saito 72 for power. After sitting around the shop for a couple of hours and discussing all things PA we decided that lunch was in order so we adjourned to a nearby resturant for some much needed nutritional intake.
Now before I get into this rules proposal thing I like to make a few things clear. 1.) At no time was any alcohol consumed during or after this lunch. 2.) Not one of the three of us smokes.
Because of the complexities that this rules proposal could stir up, we decided that we should put it forth on the Stuka Stund Forum in order to make sure that we have covered all possibilites and get some positive input from all of the obviously talented and deep thinking stunt flyers that make it a point of visiting and posting on this forum. Another thing is that we are contemplating asking Dirty Dan to finally formalize this proposal and submit it, as his obvious way with words and the high regard he is held in almost unanimously by the stunt community, especically the "Eastern Stunt Kabal", will help get this proposal through in the shortest possible time.
We would like to propose what will be called the "Mulligan Rule" to both the AMA and FAI rules. For those not familiar with the term, my long standing as a PGA and CPGA member makes me an expert and hence an explanation. A "Mulligan" is a term used in golf, that is involked during friendly and sometime not so friendly matches that gives each golfer in a foursome a chance to replay one exceedingly horrible shot with no penalty. Its like the shot never occured. We think stunt flyers should also be able to throw out that one horrible manouver that seems to always find its way into that otherwise perfect pattern and refly it for the judges. We can forsee problems, as can you wait til the end of the pattern to involk the rule and pick your worst manouver or do you have to call it just after the said manouver. In PAMPA skill level contests do Experts get 1 Mulligan, Advanced 2 Mulligans, Intermediates 3 Mulligans, etc. What if your worst manouver was the Take-off or the Landing? In FAI what if your Square Eight has to be redone and doing it puts you over the 7 minute time limit?
Any helpful comment and suggestions for this rules proposal will be appreciated. We're sure that there things we haven't thought of that could "Impact" on our efforts to get this proposal in the rule book in the shortest possible time.
One more thing, remember that we're flying model airplanes and all this is supposed to be fun.
Alan, Chris and Paul

Ted Fancher · Nov 30, 2003 11:25 AM

RE: Rules Proposal#1 source
Mulligans! Mulligans! We don't need no er, uh...mulligans!

Ted

p.s. If I could just leave out the square eight it would be fine. Would that count?

jaco · Dec 01, 2003 01:43 AM

RE: Rules Proposal#23 source
>Mulligans! Mulligans! We don't need no er, uh...mulligans!
>
>
>
>Ted


godzilla · Dec 01, 2003 08:45 AM

RE: Rules Proposal#30 source
>p.s. If I could just leave out the square eight it would be
>fine. Would that count?

Err...what Ted said. I think everyone would leave out the square eight.

Ty Marcucci · Dec 01, 2003 02:21 PM

RE: Rules Proposaledited#35 source
OH YES BIG TIME!! And here all this time I thought I was the only guy that could not do a decent figure square eight. I have stated before that mine look like an octogon connected to a lozenge. Hmmm, Mulligan/Murphy the square eight??

Eggbert · Nov 30, 2003 12:15 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#2 source
> One more thing, remember that we're flying model
>airplanes and all this is supposed to be fun.
>Alan, Chris and Paul

Ho, Ho, Ho, if there wasn't snow outside I might think it was April.

Does a bad engine run count as a Mulligan?

Eggy

David Hoover · Nov 30, 2003 12:26 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#3 source
My biggest problem would be deciding on which maneuver o invoke the Mulligan rule. My choice would generally be almost unlimited.

Best, Hoovie

Life is simple. Eat. Sleep. Fly.

Randy · Nov 30, 2003 12:49 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#4 source
How about you take the worst maneuver, fly it again and the judges take the worst one?

He, he

Randy Powell

slodog · Nov 30, 2003 01:43 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#5 source
This is a joke, right?
Andrew Raney

Ty Marcucci · Nov 30, 2003 02:24 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#6 source
In the Navy, they served at times a concoction called "mulligan stew". It had apples vice potatos in it. Tasted fine. As to a "mulligan" in PA, no. Not now,not ever. I would end up flying ten minutes and redoing the entire pattern, except for the final crash.
Why not call it a "Murphy" as he always comes along when you least need him. Why blame the Mulligans?? At least you are picking on the Irush, er Irish.
If this suggestion had come out of, oh, say, Texas, I would consider it.

kvarley · Nov 30, 2003 04:54 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#7 source
This is an enlightened age and we should know better than to denegrate some persons name so badly. To connect a name to something so derogatory as a blown manoever or a refly for free is not fair to many fine Irish people. What I am proposing to eleviate the situation is to actually sell the refly manoever for something like five points, then one would definately have to carefully consider the use of a Mulligan, Was the bad manoever bad enough to risk five points to improve ones score. or not. We would have a Mulligan bonus much like a flap bonus or an ignition bonus and each attempt would take off five points from it . Yeah, thats the answer.And it is more politically corect, because a mulligan becomes a thing of value. Just trying to save us from giant lawsuites,Class action of course.This is a litigous age we live in. Keith V

LNeumann · Nov 30, 2003 05:47 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#9 source
In "thinking this over", when you take a mulligan in golf, you go get your ball, bring it back, and then hit ig again, right? (It is either that, or you hit a second ball, and it is a little hard to put up a second airplane and put it in the pattern now being flown.)

So, I would suggest that the best way to incorporate this into the pattern so that everyone would know what was going on would be to require that, immediately after the maneuver was flown that the flyer wished to redo, would need to retrace his steps by flying said maneuver backwards to get himself at the proper point in the pattern where he could fly it over. Thus, if Ted, for instance, didn't like his square eight, he would need to immediately fly the square eight backwards to bring himself back to the exit point of the previous maneuver so that he could fly the square eight once again. It would seem that this would be the only way to make the mulligan rule work properly. And I am sure that if said rule were written in simple form as I have obviously done, it would be greeted by the rules committee with appropriate enghusiasm, such as

SRiese5283 · Nov 30, 2003 06:07 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#10 source
NO Drinking, No Smoking, Just a lot of fumes...

So what's Paul going to throw out? THE pull test! The Messy toolbox. OR that stinking hat!!!

Scott (I think the Canadians are 60% nut free)Riese

Jerry Eichten · Nov 30, 2003 06:13 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#11 source
Throw out just one maneuver? I've had whole years I wanted to forget...

JohnT4051 · Nov 30, 2003 07:54 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#12 source
If you're going to allow mulligans, then you're going to have to add a maneuver to have the score come out right. I suggest the square cloverleaf. (Hey, try it -- it's actually quite easy.)

--jt

LNeumann · Nov 30, 2003 09:06 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#13 source
I prefer the triangle clover leaf. Maybe we could add another rules proposal to include this.

JohnT4051 · Dec 01, 2003 01:42 AM

RE: Rules Proposal#22 source
>I prefer the triangle clover leaf. Maybe we could add
>another rules proposal to include this.

I don't think I could do the triangle cloverleaf -- I can't even get plain old triangles right. But I did try a square cloverleaf the other day (I'm always bored in those laps after the pattern ends).
It's pretty simple to do. Doing the first section (upper right) spills off enough speed that the corners in the second section (lower left) are gentle, much like the second outside square loop, and everything else follows pretty gently as well.
I actually found it, in a way, easier than the round cloverleaf, because I always have trouble finding the bottom of the lower left part, because there's no starting ground reference like there is in other maneuvers. But doing it as a square lets you use the upcoming ground as a measure, and you find the spot for the easier. (This comment is only relevant to us hackers...you expert fliers find the bottoms just fine, blindfolded even.)
Also, I was musing that learning to do it with square corners might help some intermediate fliers learn to do the round one better, because one of the most common errors in the round one is failure to fly far enough to the left after the first segment, and the result is overlapping, or interlocking, segments. Doing it square really makes that obvious even to the pilot, and might help to break the overlapping habit.
Or probably I am just nuts. Don't anybody get me wrong; I am not proposing any rules changes!!!
--jt

wcrane · Dec 02, 2003 04:44 AM

RE: Rules Proposal#52 source
Ha! Most of my cloverleafs already LOOK like triangles, I'm ahead of the curve!

From somewhere near Parkville, Mo.
William Crane
AMA 6733

Randy · Nov 30, 2003 10:37 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#17 source
Jerry,

>> Throw out just one maneuver? I've had whole years I wanted to forget...<<

Hmm, I seem to remember some pretty good ones. Enough to trounce me, though that may not mean much.

Randy Powell

P Walker · Nov 30, 2003 09:48 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#14 source

>So what's Paul going to throw out? snip! snip. OR that stinking hat!!!
>
>Scott (I think the Canadians are 60% nut free)Riese

Scott....I can see your jealousy seeping through your keyboard. You only wish you had a lucky hat like that!!!!!

I believe the correct method would be a hand signal immediatly after the maneuver to signal the Mulligan. Then the maneuver would be re-flown immediatly. And to all the smart alecks out there, no, there will be no Mulligans on the TO or Landing. Well DUH!

I believe Chris and Alan volunteered to judge the first contest in the country (Canada, that is) to use this "method" in the '04 Western Canada champs in August. Thanks guys! I'm sure they will explain all the details soon so we can all practice for this!

LNeumann · Nov 30, 2003 09:55 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#15 source

>I believe the correct method would be a hand signal
>immediatly after the maneuver to signal the Mulligan. Then
>the maneuver would be re-flown immediatly. And to all the
>smart alecks out there, no, there will be no Mulligans on
>the TO or Landing. Well DUH!
>
>I believe Chris and Alan volunteered to judge the first
>contest in the country (Canada, that is) to use this
>"method" in the '04 Western Canada champs in August. Thanks
>guys! I'm sure they will explain all the details soon so we
>can all practice for this!

I realize this is all tongue in cheek, but wouldn't it be embarrassing to take a mulligan, and then find that the repeat maneuver scored even worse than the one it replaced? Hmmm, maybe we can take a mulligan on the mulligan if...

And how do you practice for a mulligan? Actually, I see guys doing this all the time in practice for the Nats. They do an hourglass and then go back and do another one.

Alan Resinger · Nov 30, 2003 10:32 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#16 source
Leonard,
I really like your idea of retracing the bad manouver backwards to its starting point and then reflying. Of course if you score lower on the refly it stands. This brings up the problem of running overtime on the pattern as now you are doing two extra manouvers. In golf the "Mulligan" being called means the first shot is disregarded. No retrieval of ball or anything except in extreme cases. I remember a guy I played against one time who took a "Mulligan" on a 2 foot putt that was for a few bucks. Missed it the second time also.

mcm · Dec 01, 2003 08:13 AM

RE: Rules Proposal#25 source
You'd have to learn to laugh at yourself. My mulligan shot in golf is often (very often) worse than the shot I hit first. My mulligan rule is that I take my choice of the two shots after I hit the mulligan. This way, the pilot could, to a certain degree, score his own pattern.

Which brings me to another golf suggestion: Just have everyone score their own pattern on the honor system. I mean, nobody EVER lies about their golf score. Do they?

Randy · Nov 30, 2003 10:40 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#18 source
Paul,

>>I believe the correct method would be a hand signal immediatly after the maneuver to signal the Mulligan.<<

And what would the signal be? Using the thumb and forfinger to hold your nose? A waving motion near your behind? Maybe just a good, Roman thumbs down.

Randy Powell

Ty Marcucci · Dec 01, 2003 01:27 AM

RE: Rules Proposal#19 source
The most obvious signal would be throwing your hat to the ground with great force. Or better yet, throwing both hands up in the air as to signal "surrender". Yeah, that's the ticket.

Bill Little · Dec 01, 2003 08:28 AM

RE: Rules Proposal#27 source
>The most obvious signal would be throwing your hat to the
>ground with great force.

Ty,
You can't steal my "hat throw", just ask Marshall B., Steve F., or Charlie P. I got that manuever "down pat".
Bill <><


Dont worry about the mule going blind 'til you get the cart loaded!

Ty Marcucci · Dec 01, 2003 02:24 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#36 source
Guess who I first saw do that??? HMMMM? The old mule skinner. I just throw my hands up in disgust.

SRiese5283 · Dec 01, 2003 01:33 AM

RE: Rules Proposal#20 source
>Paul,
>
>>>I believe the correct method would be a hand signal immediatly after the maneuver to signal the Mulligan.<<
>
>And what would the signal be? Using the thumb and forfinger
>to hold your nose? A waving motion near your behind? Maybe
>just a good, Roman thumbs down.
>
>

Randy Powell

NO It would be the "PUSH THE GLASSES BACK ON THE NOSE" signal

Scott(oh Jack Pitcher has that)Riese

SRiese5283 · Dec 01, 2003 01:35 AM

RE: Rules Proposal#21 source
>
>>So what's Paul going to throw out? snip! snip. OR that stinking hat!!!
>>
>>Scott (I think the Canadians are 60% nut free)Riese
>
>Scott....I can see your jealousy seeping through your
>keyboard. You only wish you had a lucky hat like
>that!!!!!
>
>I believe the correct method would be a hand signal
>immediatly after the maneuver to signal the Mulligan. Then
>the maneuver would be re-flown immediatly. And to all the
>smart alecks out there, no, there will be no Mulligans on
>the TO or Landing. Well DUH!
>
>I believe Chris and Alan volunteered to judge the first
>contest in the country (Canada, that is) to use this
>"method" in the '04 Western Canada champs in August. Thanks
>guys! I'm sure they will explain all the details soon so we
>can all practice for this!


Paul...I would love to EARN ONE someday.

Scott(got time)Riese

gcb · Dec 01, 2003 07:58 AM

RE: Rules Proposal#24 source
Then there would be the occasional guy who scored lower on his "Mulligan" that would be sitting on the sidelines doing the "Mulligan Stew".

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

George

Ted Fancher · Dec 01, 2003 10:22 AM

RE: Rules Proposaledited#31 source
>
I'm sure they will explain all the details soon so we
>can all practice for this!


Hmmmm, Paul. Let's not get hasty here. Is it not possible that the mulligan may prove inferior in performance to the original?

As a society is it not in our best interest to not legislate regulations which may, under some undefineable but potentially, perhaps, maybe, under certain phases of the moon provide for a penalty rather than an entitlement! We must be careful, very careful, not to legitimize through regulation any concept that does not guarantee equality of outcome.

Perhap we should enhance the "mulligan" concept to state that "said maneuver may be performed repeatedly until such time as the judges cry uncle and clearly signify by prearranged physical signal...perhaps a deep bow from the waist facing away from the pilot for a period of at least one lap or until acknowledged by the pilot by a similar signal...denoting that a greater score has been, if not earned, at least written down.

Let's think this through very carefully.

And finally. Isn't the whole idea of practicing for a Mulligan sort of counterintuitive? Seems to me that to gain the greatest benefit from the Mulligan concept the original...i.e. the "to be mulliganned" maneuver must be as inept as possible so as to gain the greatest numerical improvement possible from its re-performance.

If, in fact, we were to "practice" the concept, doesn't one risk the possibility that the resultant original maneuver performance might well exceed the quality of the "mulliganed" version and thus, the ability to negatively impact (pardon the unavoidable propinquity of the words "negative" and "impact) one's standing as a result may, in fact, be as great a potential consequence of invoking said rule as the potential for enhancment of same!

Clearly, Paul: Practice? we don't need no..um, er...practice!

Ted

p.s. Please note that, because it is almost as hard to type with one's tongue in one's cheek as it is to pontificate orally while doing so, the above is intended to be humerous (or, humorous, I suppose, depending on whose leg is involved...there I go again. Sorry).

Ty Marcucci · Dec 01, 2003 02:26 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#37 source
Do I detect a "moon mulligan" precept here???

Steven Yampolsky · Dec 01, 2003 08:42 AM

RE: Rules Proposal#29 source
What about attempts? I consider those as "Mulligans".

Steven Yampolsky

Randy Ryan · Dec 01, 2003 10:27 AM

RE: Rules Proposaledited#32 source
If this is a joke, He He!!

If its serious I go along with Ted! That's why we get 2 flights and I don't see any purpose in complicating the judge's job, or allowing a refly of a bungled maneuver. If its bad, you blew it, better luck next time.

Randy Ryan
AMA 8500
SAM 36
I fly 'em all and love it!

dirtydan · Dec 01, 2003 01:03 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#33 source
Harumph!!

Alan and Chris come to Seattle, visit Paul, don't even call me. I will not easily or quickly forget this.

At least if I had been involved a much higher percentage of people would not know if this is a joke or not. You guys are really good fliers, but wordsmiths you are not. Especially Alan.

For myself, I know it's not a joke and very much look forward to the 2004 version of the PAC contest.

Following this trial it will be no problem to write a suitable rules proposal.

Dan

Ty Marcucci · Dec 01, 2003 02:30 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#38 source
Sorry Steven, attempts are just simple "murphies", no mulligans allowed until the flight is official, so only after the reverse wingover.

Steven Yampolsky · Dec 01, 2003 06:31 PM

Stunt was invented by Irish!#47 source
>Sorry Steven, attempts are just simple "murphies", no
>mulligans allowed until the flight is official

After that, stunt will become a true Irish sport! I mean, with cloverleaf being the ultimate maneuver, mruphies and mulligans! Hey, I live in Boston: the Little Ireland of the East Coast! That means I should have a leg up on competition! I like that....


Steven Yampolsky

Ty Marcucci · Dec 02, 2003 12:31 AM

RE: Stunt was invented by Irish!#49 source
ONLY if you change your name to O'yampolsky.

Norm · Dec 01, 2003 02:06 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#34 source
I recall one thread here talking about "The Pattern" as being such a great invention that no one has ever perfected it. This is what makes it perfect and we mortals not...it's impossible to get it perfect.
NOW with this proposed rule change ..perfection will be possible.
Of course whoever accomplishes it will have to have an asterisk beside his/her name in the great ledger book of history.

Ty Marcucci · Dec 01, 2003 02:34 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#39 source
Actually comparing CLPA to the assinine "game" of flog is a base sin.
Flog is a crazy Scottish game where one beats on a little innocent ball and putts into a hole, out of hole and beat on the ball again. Flog, walk, flog, walk. Girls liked it, but the guys "din wan no stinkin gurls aroun", so dey called it "Guys only, ladies Forbidden" or golf and that is how flog became golf, honest.

Norm · Dec 01, 2003 02:55 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#40 source
CLPA...Circle Left Pilots Argue.

Currell · Dec 01, 2003 03:31 PM

Let it snow, man.#42 source
Re adding maneuvers...

Add the Snowman.

Three loops. Each gets smaller. Each gets higher.

Currell

JohnT4051 · Dec 01, 2003 09:13 PM

RE: Let it snow, man.#48 source
>Re adding maneuvers...
>
>Add the Snowman.
>
>Three loops. Each gets smaller. Each gets higher.
>
>Currell

I believe this is pretty much what my round loops look like now.

--jt

Randy Ryan · Dec 02, 2003 08:30 AM

RE: Let it snow, man.#54 source
I fly these on days I can't concentrate but I call them vertical 8 1/2's.

Randy Ryan
AMA 8500
SAM 36
I fly 'em all and love it!

Heavy Stunt · Dec 01, 2003 03:39 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#43 source
While flog may have become golf because of sexist Southern Gentlemen, it is more likely a result of a dyslexic Canadian being confused by reading the rules.

Bruce Hunt
Salem, OR

dirtydan · Dec 01, 2003 03:51 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#44 source
>While flog may have become golf because of sexist Southern
>Gentlemen, it is more likely a result of a dyslexic Canadian
>being confused by reading the rules.
>
>Bruce Hunt
>Salem, OR


I am desperately hoping your first Stunt News District 11 column has more and better humor than shown above.

Got a boat load of fresh sauerkraut. Shall I put you and Kristen down for a gallon or two?

Dan

Heavy Stunt · Dec 02, 2003 12:37 AM

RE: Rules Proposal#50 source
Dan,

That would be great. I can stack the container right on top of the leftover pickled onions (which go great in salads by the way).

But haven't we talked about the problem of transporting hazardous material across the state line. Maybe if you drove it to the border and placed it on the state line and I picked it up off the state line neither of us would be arrested for terrorism. Assuming we could keep the lid on the Saurkraut.

Bruce Hunt
Salem, OR

Norm · Dec 01, 2003 04:37 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#45 source
>While flog may have become golf because of sexist Southern
>Gentlemen, it is more likely a result of a dyslexic Canadian
>being confused by reading the rules.
>
>Bruce Hunt
>Salem, OR
AOW! cixelsyd ylerar era snaidanaC eW

kvarley · Dec 01, 2003 05:04 PM

RE: Rules Proposal#46 source
I think "dislexic Canadian" is an oxymoron or at least some kind of a moron. Keith V