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Wings and what they do...

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DMoon · Dec 28, 2003 12:44 AM

#0 source
I was thinking about High AR vs Low AR. Now the difference in AR I am talking about is not much. But here is a few things I have found when flying the two models back to back in the same day.

I have a Billy Geo Bolt wing and it is really a high energy device. By this mean it feels like it just jumps into the turns. It also hates a 2-4 break run. The plane seems to wind up with a 2-4 break run. The more steady I make the motor the better the plane performs. Once you get the motor close and kill off any break by boosting compression(power) it almost feels as if the motor is no longer a part of the equation. You can get right to flying and paying attention to the plane.

On my lower AR models they tend to be less active in the lift department. If the motor is not getting good usable acceleration out of the corner the plane "sinks" a little or wheelies upon exits. Now once you get a good 2-4 break run working you can get just as agressive and fly it just as good. However the motor is more at play here in this particular design than the higher AR plane.

I was watching some footage from a recent Nats and saw one of the competitors who was using a higher AR wing and complanining about it all week long, and most of the season, when it hit me. He was running a 2-4 break pipe run and the plane was getting away from him in the rounds. The loops would grow and grow and grow until the top third one was off the screen. I rememeber seeing his flights in person. I just thought he was flying to fast and need to back it off a bit but then when I saw it later and really heard the motor and saw the flight characteristics it hit me his motor setup was adding so much extra energy to the plane it was just getting away from him.

Now take the same setup and put it in his old lower AR model and he was a right back where he was before.

Does this make any sense?

Brett Buck · Dec 28, 2003 01:44 AM

#1 source
>I was thinking about High AR vs Low AR. Now the difference
>in AR I am talking about is not much. But here is a few
>things I have found when flying the two models back to back
>in the same day.
>
>I have a Billy Geo Bolt wing and it is really a high energy
>device. By this mean it feels like it just jumps into the
>turns. It also hates a 2-4 break run. The plane seems to
>wind up with a 2-4 break run. The more steady I make the
>motor the better the plane performs. Once you get the motor
>close and kill off any break by boosting compression(power)
>it almost feels as if the motor is no longer a part of the
>equation. You can get right to flying and paying attention
>to the plane.
>
>On my lower AR models they tend to be less active in the
>lift department. If the motor is not getting good usable
>acceleration out of the corner the plane "sinks" a little or
>wheelies upon exits. Now once you get a good 2-4 break run
>working you can get just as agressive and fly it just as
>good. However the motor is more at play here in this
>particular design than the higher AR plane.
>
>I was watching some footage from a recent Nats and saw one
>of the competitors who was using a higher AR wing and
>complanining about it all week long, and most of the season,
>when it hit me. He was running a 2-4 break pipe run and the
>plane was getting away from him in the rounds. The loops
>would grow and grow and grow until the top third one was off
>the screen. I rememeber seeing his flights in person. I
>just thought he was flying to fast and need to back it off a
>bit but then when I saw it later and really heard the motor
>and saw the flight characteristics it hit me his motor setup
>was adding so much extra energy to the plane it was just
>getting away from him.
>
>Now take the same setup and put it in his old lower AR model
>and he was a right back where he was before.
>
>Does this make any sense?

Perfect sense, pretty much identical to what many of the high aspect ratio experimenters have noted, myself included.

BTW, what is the aspect ratio of a "geobolt" wing?

Brett

DMoon · Dec 28, 2003 11:18 PM

#6 source
Brett,

I went into the garage and had "Fun With Numbers"

Here is what I found.

Geo Bolt wing without flaps and tips.

Span = 57.75"

AVG Chord = 8.9375"

AR = 6.46 : 1

Geo Bolt wing with flaps and tips.

Span = 63"

AVG Chord = 11.375"

AR = 5.538 : 1

The plane I was comparing in my fleet is the 97 Bear.

97 Bear without flaps and tips.

Span = 53"

AVG Chord = 9.75"

AR = 5.4358 : 1

With flaps and tips.

Span = 58"

AVG Chord = 12"

AR = 4.8 : 1

Looking at it on paper and it doesnt look like that much of a difference. But looking at the two models on the floor and you can really see it. Especially when looking at the wings minus tips and flaps! The two wings are worlds apart. The newer more powerful engines of today will only help the High AR wings work better. Simply because they can be setup to run very steady(no 2-4 break needed) and still make enough gusto to haul the mail. When the biggggg motors come to town it could open up a whole new set of numbers that work well in the world of stunt. High ARs super long tail moments smallish tail areas and really short nose moments. Then again the hemishpere will limit the size of the model at some point.

The model I was describing in the post above about the competitor complaining about the wing has a much lower AR then the 97 Bear. I dont have the numbers but visually it looks to be lower by a noticable amount. He was running into troubles with the Geo Bolt wing after years of trimming on the other type of AR wing.

Brett Buck · Dec 29, 2003 12:16 AM

#8 source
Looking at it with the flaps off means next to nothing, of course.

5.5:1 vs. 4.8:1 is enough of a difference to be noticable. 5.5:1 is not at all uncommon - The Trivial Pursuit is 5.45:1 and the Infinity is about 5.25:1. Now try it going from 4.8:1 to 7:1 - which is an experiment that a lot of people have done!

You are also probably right about it working better now than it did back in the late 70's. But, the same reason - abundant controllable power - makes it unnecessary, for the most part. And more power doesn't help the turbulence sensitivity at all.

I have given thought to dusting off the plans for my old DarkStar from the early 80s (680 square inches, 7.25:1) and building another one for a Saito 56 or 40VF. But I just don't think that it's a direction that will really work out.

BTW, some of the speed sensitivity you are seeing with the GeoBolt is due to the thin wing airfoil and large flaps for the weight, as much as it is with the aspect ratio, particularly the "accelerating/exploding out of corners" part.

Brett

DMoon · Dec 30, 2003 12:12 AM

#17 source
> Looking at it with the flaps off means next to nothing,
>of course.

The wings by themselves without flaps are so vastly different I just did the numbers to see the differences.

>
> 5.5:1 vs. 4.8:1 is enough of a difference to be
>noticable. 5.5:1 is not at all uncommon - The Trivial
>Pursuit is 5.45:1 and the Infinity is about 5.25:1. Now try
>it going from 4.8:1 to 7:1 - which is an experiment that a
>lot of people have done!

I would like to fly on a 7:1 sometime. I just dont have the time to take on another project right now.

>
> You are also probably right about it working better now
>than it did back in the late 70's. But, the same reason -
>abundant controllable power - makes it unnecessary, for the
>most part. And more power doesn't help the turbulence
>sensitivity at all.

Unecessary? I dont know about that. I think with all the power it would be that much better. The stronger the motor the more steady it will run. An 80 swinging a 12X4 4 bld or a 61 swinging it and the 80 will be alot easier to keep real steady with little or no power increase in the corner if the Plane will fly through the corner with none needed. The Lower AR needs a boost and that is when it can get a little up and down in a hurry. An 80 on a 2-4 break setup that starts hitting real hard on the exits in the wind oh my lord what a nightmare! The lower AR still needs that little boost to overcome the drag. When I was, and still do from time to time, running a the little lower AR wings I always had to have a great deal more props on hand for all the "possible" wheather and all that stuff. Today with just a tad bit more AR it just doesnt seem to be that big a factor. It was pretty windy at the Nats this year, excluding Friday I wasnt there thank God, and the wheather was every where and I ran the same prop I run hear in the dead of summer with no wind at all at 101 temp. It just seems to not be such a big deal. You find one and it pretty much juts works.

You are right about the turbulence. For some the boucing in level flight is just to much and drives them nuts. I dont really care about it to much after the two maneuvers that call for it. It doesnt seem to have to much troubles with it in the maneuvers, but then again I have never really had a really high AR wing. Mine is juts slightly higher.

>
> I have given thought to dusting off the plans for my old
>DarkStar from the early 80s (680 square inches, 7.25:1) and
>building another one for a Saito 56 or 40VF. But I just
>don't think that it's a direction that will really work out.

I would like to see that. Was it published or is there a pic of it somewhere??


>
> BTW, some of the speed sensitivity you are seeing with
>the GeoBolt is due to the thin wing airfoil and large flaps
>for the weight, as much as it is with the aspect ratio,
>particularly the "accelerating/exploding out of corners"
>part.
>
> Brett

Yep you are right. And it is a good thing. You can really flatten out the pitches on your props. It really helps to kill off any wind up. Those super flat pitches can let you really push the pipe in and run the rpm up and still no break. Not much load. The flat pitches help in that steady maneuver speed, all in the 4stroke mode. Even use decending pitch with very good results. It can be a fight sometimes to kill it off, just like any setup can, but I rarely kill it by taming the motor. Many times I just shoot more nitro or push the pipe in further, 17" or shorter, and it calms down. I know it isnt the way most would do it or teach it but it does work.

Mike_Ferguson · Dec 30, 2003 07:17 AM

#18 source

>I would like to fly on a 7:1 sometime. I just dont have the
>time to take on another project right now.

Based on this thread, I think it'd be interesting to see the old Big Jim Greenaway El-Jay design with a big piped motor or a 4-stroke. I think the aspect ratio on that design was something close to 7:1 (I'll pull out the "MiG Sweeper" plans sometime this weekend to see what it actually was). Some of the things I didn't like about that design sound like they could have partially been the by-product of a 4-2-4 engine run.

godzilla · Dec 30, 2003 08:38 AM

#19 source
An 80 swinging a 12X4 4 bld or
>a 61 swinging it and the 80 will be alot easier to keep real
>steady with little or no power increase in the corner if the
>Plane will fly through the corner with none needed.

Huh...

DMoon · Dec 30, 2003 09:27 PM

edited#28 source
> An 80 swinging a 12X4 4 bld or
>>a 61 swinging it and the 80 will be alot easier to keep real
>>steady with little or no power increase in the corner if the
>>Plane will fly through the corner with none needed.
>
>Huh...

You and I talked about this before. The 80 will be easy to keep docile and with a relative light load on it. The 61 with the same load may want to boost more than the 80.

My engine setup on the Big Bear are much more tame and have alot less accelration out of the corner compared to the amount needed on the small Bear.

godzilla · Dec 30, 2003 03:47 PM

#24 source
>Geo Bolt wing with flaps and tips.
>
>Span = 63"
>
>AVG Chord = 11.375"
>
>AR = 5.538 : 1

Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde both have the Aerosmith Impact foam cores.

This is the same wing that Howard Rush's Impact uses.

Average span is 10.92".

AR is 5.68. Higher than the Geobolt (about the same). The root chord is much smaller on the old Impact cores than the UHP wing. Both root chords are smaller than the Geobolt.

Brett Buck · Dec 30, 2003 05:00 PM

#25 source
>>Geo Bolt wing with flaps and tips.
>>
>>Span = 63"
>>
>>AVG Chord = 11.375"
>>
>>AR = 5.538 : 1
>
>Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde both have the Aerosmith Impact foam
>cores.
>
>This is the same wing that Howard Rush's Impact uses.
>
>Average span is 10.92".
>
>AR is 5.68. Higher than the Geobolt (about the same). The
>root chord is much smaller on the old Impact cores than the
>UHP wing. Both root chords are smaller than the Geobolt.

Huh? As far as I know, there is only one Impact wing - the one published in the FM article. I'm reasonably sure this is the one Howard had on his two Impacts, and the one that Paul used.

Brett

godzilla · Dec 30, 2003 07:55 PM

#26 source

> Huh? As far as I know, there is only one Impact wing -
>the one published in the FM article. I'm reasonably sure
>this is the one Howard had on his two Impacts, and the one
>that Paul used.

The foam core is smaller than the UHP version which is based on the 92 FM version.

The foam coare is smaller and not as thick...

DMoon · Dec 30, 2003 09:37 PM

#30 source
The UHP is not based on the 92 plan, it IS the 92 plan. Paul told Steve that was the ONE.

DMoon · Dec 30, 2003 09:34 PM

#29 source
Is that avg chord with your flaps or with Paul's flaps. I have taken the AR off of the UHP plan on the IMPACT, the exact one Paul told Steve to use, from the FM article and the ARs are very similar. The one major difference is the thickness of the airfoils. The IMPACT is quite a bit thicker.

Randy · Dec 28, 2003 01:53 AM

#2 source
Doug,

That's pretty much what I found out. The higher the AR, the more suceptible the wing is to speed change. It takes very little change in speed to make a big difference in the amount of input from the controls it takes to make a turn (for instance). The wing becomes more efficient almost exponentially, the faster it goes (to a point). It one of the coolest and most exasperating things about high AR wings. It's also one of the reasons they fly great in calm weather, where you can more accurately regulate the plane's speed

Using a 4 stroke made the very high AR planes I've messed with almost flyable as long as the turbulence wasn't too bad. Nice, consistent speed.

Randy Powell

ferocious · Jan 02, 2004 09:52 AM

#33 source
It might make things a little easier to think about by going back to the basics- span, wing area, weight, engine torque, and profile drag. Aspect ratio is sort of a figure of merit as a shorthand way of comparing different wing planforms and is most useful if you assume "everything else being equal", which it never is when comparing different actual models.

Induced drag to produce lift is mainly influenced by the wing span and weight. As Ted pointed out, a long, narrow wing carries a given amount of weight with less drag than a short, squatty wing. Increasing the span on a given design 10% will make a big difference in how much it slows down in maneuvers. the "explosive" corner phenom occurs when the plane doesn't slow down as much as a shorter span model. The higher speed means the control loads are higher in the maneuver, making the plane harder to control. The longer, more efficient wing also is better at extracting energy from the wind so the plane can speed up more in a maneuver if the pilot doesn't take corrective action. Add a motor with a lively break from a slow 4 cycle to a fast two and things can really get out of hand quickly.

For a real live example, take a 45 oz. Nobler with a Fox 35. Extending the wing a rib bay from 52 in. span to 56 in. span will make the plane a lot more flyable. The motor can be backed off a bit, it doesn't have to run just perfect. You can fly higher without losing control. A slight overcontrol at the wrong time will have much less tendency to make the plane fall out of the air. You can get a similar effect by building a new plane that weighs 40 oz. But, as others pointed out, adding span makes the plane more susceptible to turbulence and whip from the lines.

Jim Pollock · Dec 28, 2003 10:45 AM

#3 source
Hi Doug,

I'm a tiny bit suprised that you didn't already know about the tendencies of hi and low aspect ratio wings. What you are saying is exactly why Curtis Comer runs his engine in his Jubilee design (Low Aspect Ratio) in a screaming two stroke with a very low pitch prop. It doesn't fall out of the seriously hard corners it is capable of doing. Curtis was a close second to Robby Gruber at last falls Atlanta contest. Curtis will probably fly Advanced again at the 04 Nats and I consider that he is quite capable of winning. Of course, no one shoud consider me a threat of winning anything with the amout that I get to fly these days - but, someday I will have time to practice before I compete!

Jim Pollock

DMoon · Dec 28, 2003 11:32 PM

#7 source
Jim,

I havent been at this game to long and the Geo Bolt wing(02) is my first run with the higher AR wings. I am just now(the past few years) really begining to get alot of this down. Up until then I have been trying this and that and getting good results and listening to what others who have been there are saying and trying not to reinvent the wheel when it comes to builing and running piped motors. I just made sure the plane was straight and light as I could build it then get after the trimming and motor run and it worked great. Now I am really trying to figure out how and why it works. This board is such a huge help! I got into this in 91. I didnt know the pattern until 94 alot of the stuff I am learning like this were learned along time ago and published years before I knew what CLPA was. I would like to see alot of the old ground breakers reprinnted in SN from time to time. I really want a copy of "So you want to win"

Ted Fancher · Dec 29, 2003 11:28 AM

#9 source
> I would like
>to see alot of the old ground breakers reprinnted in SN from
>time to time. I really want a copy of "So you want to win"
>
>

Doug,

Reprints should be available from Curt Nixon at PAMPA PRODUCTS.

Anyone remember which issue that article was in?

Ted

aaronl · Dec 30, 2003 08:43 AM

So you want to win huh...#20 source
Do not remember the exact issue, but I do remember it being a three part series.

I want to say it was around the 1994 time when S.N. was published as a monthly magazine, could have been 1993.

Aaron

godzilla · Dec 28, 2003 11:29 AM

#4 source
It seems lower AR requires more pitch to maintain speed and control deflection, and is less prone to windup.

Higher AR requires less pitch, less control deflection, and is more prone to windup (it seems to make more energy from the wind).

Higher AR definately makes more lift.

Ted Fancher · Dec 28, 2003 12:30 PM

#5 source
>It seems lower AR requires more pitch to maintain speed and
>control deflection, and is less prone to windup.
>
>Higher AR requires less pitch, less control deflection, and
>is more prone to windup (it seems to make more energy from
>the wind).
>
>Higher AR definately makes more lift.

HI guys,

At the risk of sounding like Al, you guys need to read some of the stuff written (by myself among others) about aspect ratio.

Doug's discoveries, as Brett says, aren't really discoveries at all but rather a re-expression of why higher ARs can be a double edged sword; a subject that has been discussed in pretty much all of my articles as well in well informed scholarly publications which have a great deal more merit than do my infantile fumblings over aerodynamics.

Lift efficiency can be simply described as a ratio of the amount of lift produced compared to the amount of drag developed in the process. In the aviation world this is decribed as L/D or lift over drag.

For all the volumes of discussion we've seen on this forum about the importance of airfoils and the alleged superiority of one versus another, all remotely acceptable airfoils must really take a back seat to the effects of aspect ratio in terms of L/D.

The extremes are, again, the easiest way to illustrate the phenomenom. Compare the aspect ratios and glide performance of low (comparative) speed high performance sail planes and the high speed of delta winged jet fighters...then think of a stunt ship as something in between the extremes.

The mission of the sailplane is to gain the absolute maximum duration from a given amount of stored energy and speed is a non-issue. The delta winged fighter's mission, on the other hand, is to fly just as fast as it can and it carries its own supply of energy in the form of tons of kerosene. Neither aircraft can pretend to perform the mission of the other even though they are at the pinnacle of performance for their given mission. This is true even if they have roughly the same wing area and not totally dissimilar airfoils(not an unlikely possibility)

Aside from the energy source, the primary reason for this vast difference in capability of the two airframes is the aspect ratio of the wing. The sailplane hasn't enough energy available to drive its high aspect ratio wing to even a fraction of the speed at which the delta fighter excels (to say nothing of such things as structural integrity, etc}. The fighter, on the other hand, at speeds common to the sailplane will literally fall out of the air because what little lift can be developed at such a speed comes at the cost of so much drag that it will fall faster than it moves forward. (In reality, it will probably stall at such speeds because the angle of attack necessary to even attempt to create the lift required will exceed critical A of A and it won't actually be flying at all)

General statements can be made about lifting surface planforms (shape from the top view) that enlighten us in that vast realm between sailplanes and fighers. To wit:

All other facets being the same (i.e. airfoil, air density, air speed) high aspect ratio wings create large amounts of lift change with small and/or modest angle of attack changes at a given airspeed. While doing so they produce only a modest amount of additional drag. Drag produced as a byproduct of lift is known as "induced" drag.

Low aspect ratio wings of the same area as above require much greater angle of attack changes to produce the same amount of lift achievable by the high A/R at the lower A of A. The drag increase will be dramatically greater and the difference proportional to the difference in Aspect Ratio.

Both equal area wings are capable of roughly the same maximum lift potential because the lift properties of the surface are mostly dependent on the area and efficiency of the airfoil (coefficient of lift). This is not totally accurate for reasons doing with technicalities that could be discussed separately, but for our discussion only cloud the comparison; reynolds numbers and spanwise flow, etc.

The high A/R suface will produce this maximum lift at a comparatively low A of A and will, of course, stall at only slightly greater A of A.

The low A/R wing will produce this lift at a very high A of A (ponder the pictures you've seen of the Concorde on final approach and then think of a sailplane trying to emulate that pitch angle!)

Once again, the induced drag of the low A/R surface will be monumentally greater than for the sailplane type of wing and will require tons of energy to be expended in order to maintain the airspeed required to produce the lift the sailplane can generate by the simply utilizing its own mass and kinetic energy.

Stunt ships fall into a broad category of moderate aspect ratios generally a bit on either side of five to one. An aspect ratio of four to one will produce an stunter which will slow noticably in corners unless (as Doug points out) there is some mechanism to moderate that loss of airspeed, i.e. the 4-2-4 break, for instance. Wing loading will be a very big deal to such a stunter, especially if the power source is modest.

An A/R of six to one or greater, on the other hand, will produce a stunt ship which is much more amenable to heavier wing loadings because it creates a lot less drag in producing the lift necessary for corners of a given radius. It will require less A of A change to produce the lift and will be less dependent on flaps or high lift devices of other sorts.

I doesn't come without a down side, however! Because lift required for a given corner radius is more or less constant (a one g difference between "going up" corners and "coming down" ones), anything that changes the lift produced by the wing will alter the track of the high A/R ship more than one of the same area with a lower A/R. Because we fly in a tethered environment, when the wind blows our "airspeed" is constantly in flux as we fly into, out of, and across the wind direction.

Because lift changes as the square of airspeed, any changes in airspeed occassioned by our tethered environment and the wind will alter the lift produced. Thus, the tendency for loops to tighten up and flight paths to alter seemingly at random (but actually predictably) and manevuers like loops to wind up faster and faster.

For these reasons a higher aspect ratio will behave better with a power source that attempts to moderate changes in airspeed...the single speed piped run being ideal and the four stroke potentially even more so. A 4-2-4 run will complicate and exacerbate the problems to a point that they probably can't be solved to a great enough degree to reach a competitive platform in unkind wind conditions.

Ted

bkruger · Dec 29, 2003 01:16 PM

#10 source

>
>For these reasons a higher aspect ratio will behave better
>with a power source that attempts to moderate changes in
>airspeed...the single speed piped run being ideal and the
>four stroke potentially even more so. A 4-2-4 run will
>complicate and exacerbate the problems to a point that they
>probably can't be solved to a great enough degree to reach a
>competitive platform in unkind wind conditions.

Ted;

Interesting discussion, as always.

Big question for me is where the line between low and high aspect ratio sit. Is it 6:1, 5.5:1, etc? With no point of reference, the terms lose much of their meaning. We need a mark on the wall or a series of marks on the wall to refernce from.

Perhaps one could break down Aspect Ratio further into three categories for CL Stunt:

Low Aspect Ratio - LT 5.0:1
Medium Aspect Ratio - Between 5.0-6.0:1
High Aspect Ratio - GT 6.0:1

Thoughts?

v/r - Bob Kruger

Howard Rush · Dec 30, 2003 12:40 PM

#22 source
"not totally dissimilar airfoils(not an unlikely possibility)"

Ted, I wish you wouldn't be so negative.

Ted Fancher · Dec 30, 2003 01:32 PM

#23 source
>"not totally dissimilar airfoils(not an unlikely
>possibility)"
>
>Ted, I wish you wouldn't be so negative.

oh, you english majors are just silly.

Not only that, did you notice how I foolishly labled a flying saucer a one to one AR? Certain Kernel from the southland brought that faux pas to my attention.

Ted

Howard Rush · Dec 30, 2003 09:26 PM

#27 source
That is interesting. A circle, by the official definition of aspect ratio, would have an aspect ratio of 4/pi. If you interchange the span and chord of a circle-planform wing (by flying sideways, maybe), it would still have an aspect ration of 4/pi. Given a rectangular wing of aspect ratio A, if you interchange span and chord, the resultant wing would have an aspect ratio of 1/A. Thus, pi = 4.

Trostle · Dec 30, 2003 11:01 PM

#32 source
>That is interesting. A circle, by the official definition
>of aspect ratio, would have an aspect ratio of 4/pi. If you
>interchange the span and chord of a circle-planform wing (by
>flying sideways, maybe), it would still have an aspect
>ration of 4/pi. Given a rectangular wing of aspect ratio A,
>if you interchange span and chord, the resultant wing would
>have an aspect ratio of 1/A. Thus, pi = 4.

Interesting indeed. This just may be the key to the Theory of Everything. And to think it came from a simple flying platter.

Ted Fancher · Jan 02, 2004 11:55 AM

#34 source
>>That is interesting. A circle, by the official definition
>>of aspect ratio, would have an aspect ratio of 4/pi. If you
>>interchange the span and chord of a circle-planform wing (by
>>flying sideways, maybe), it would still have an aspect
>>ration of 4/pi. Given a rectangular wing of aspect ratio A,
>>if you interchange span and chord, the resultant wing would
>>have an aspect ratio of 1/A. Thus, pi = 4.
>
>Interesting indeed. This just may be the key to the Theory
>of Everything. And to think it came from a simple flying
>platter.

Now, Kernel. That's not nice. Howard may not be the most complex individual but calling him a flying platter is a bit over the edge...or not. Let me think about it for a bit.

Ted

Howard Rush · Jan 02, 2004 01:08 PM

#35 source
I think it's some figure of speech like synecdoche, relating me to my primary activity for the past week.

Bob Reeves · Dec 29, 2003 03:19 PM

#11 source
What's really hard is when you are trying to build a Classic airplane and stay true to the design with all this top secret design info being passed around so freely

The Skylark 46 has a wing span of 56.5 inches and an average cord of 10.906 inches giving it an aspect of 5.15 :1 which puts it somewhere between Doug's airplanes. The 35 Skylark has a WS of 52 inches with the same cord so it ends up 4.74 :1 pretty close to the Bear.

Have no idea if this means anything but thought it interesting to compare a classic with the modern stuff.

Ted Fancher · Dec 29, 2003 04:47 PM

#12 source
>What's really hard is when you are trying to build a Classic
>airplane and stay true to the design with all this top
>secret design info being passed around so freely
>
>The Skylark 46 has a wing span of 56.5 inches and an average
>cord of 10.906 inches giving it an aspect of 5.15 :1 which
>puts it somewhere between Doug's airplanes. The 35 Skylark
>has a WS of 52 inches with the same cord so it ends up 4.74
>:1 pretty close to the Bear.
>
>Have no idea if this means anything but thought it
>interesting to compare a classic with the modern stuff.

Bobs...K and R.

Yeah, nobodies ever defined what's high and what's low. It is likely best just to think in relative terms ... i.e., higher and lower. There's little to no chance of a competitive stunter ever being at the really gross extents of the aspect ratio rainbow. Many high performance sailplanes are as much as 30 to one and delta fighters can actually be as little as two to one. Either of those extremes would be of no value for a stunter.

A couple of thoughts on why might be instructive however.

One of the unique charaacteristics of very high aspect ratio sail planes is the need to restrict abrupt pitch inputs due to the aggressive change in lift which results from even minor A of A changes. Instead of being a simple stick hinged at the floor some have sticks which actually telescope horizontally out from in front of the pilot to militate against unwanted overagressive pitch changes such as might result from turbulence, etc. Needless to say, the span loading on a wing this long can result in some bodacious loads being placed upon the spars or other supporting structure from rapid pitch changes and the resulting high positive and/or negative g's which would result.

A past local area combat flyer loved to demonstrate the maneuverability of his very high aspect ratio original designs...around eight to one, as I recall ... by wrapping them into the ubiquitoes combat demo of ever tightening consectutive loops. More conventional A/R ships will gradually slow due to the high drag build-up and eventually find some balance between lift/drag/horsepower that would result in some tight loops at a much reduced speed relative to level flight. This guys high aspect ratio ship would do this trick at much higher speeds and tighter loops. In fact, at least twice in moderate wind conditions I can recall him simply blowing the wings off (the span loading situation) the ship due to the added velocity of wind up due to winds.

A local legend, Bill Osborne, who has helped more kids learn to fly than probably the rest of us put together, used a flying saucer design with Cox .049 power. These little critters with their precise one to one aspect ratio are a clear demonstration of the effects of such low aspect ratio. Despite an incredibly low wing loading, once they get out of level flight they slow so much that a "loop" is more of a stand-still flop.

The bottom line is I feel we stunt guys can think of five to one as a standard and can probably include in that group anything down to 4.75 or up to 5.25. Anything above or below that is going to start to require some design consideration of the effect of A/R on lift and drag which will result.

Anything over six might be thought of as high A/R and would lead me to consider means to mitigate the lift thus produced. Smaller span and chord flaps, for instance. ON the other hand, high A/R is a legitimate consideration if one were to design a flapless stunter (or nearly so, as have the Beringers) because of the ablity to get greater lift increases with smaller A of A inputs. Of course, this high lift, low drag configuration will also wind up like the dickens in a wind! Lastly, the power loading with high A/R can be lower than for a conventional ship. Denny Adamisin had a series of very long winged stunters back in the '70s that flew great with dead rich OS .35Ss pulling around well over 60 inches of wing span.

If you for some reason decide to go super low on the A/R, like down to four or less, you are going to have to decide on alternate means of developing lift such as much more efficient high lift devices to avoid the need for very high A or A to perform maneuvers. Plus, you'll need lots of ooomph up front because whatever the source of developing the required lift it'll come along with a ton of drag.

Make any sense???

Ted

Ted Fancher · Dec 29, 2003 04:55 PM

#14 source
By the way, harkening back to earlier threads on torque curves and horsepower and so forth, it is worth noting again how fortunate we are nowadays to have a wide range of powerplants available and viable for our use which, properly utilized, will allow us to successfully campaign designs which aerodynamically challenge the standard envelope.

Al was a pioneer in this sort of multiple ball juggling with his smallish winged, large flapped semi-scales which (contrary to what you may have heard form some quarters) flew really, really well. If you read Al's stuff you'll quickly notice that the powerplant was always a very, very big deal to making his unique stunters work they way he wanted them to. A Fox .35 probably just wasn't going to cut it!

I've never actually measured the aspect ratio on Al's ships but I bet he could let us know if that was a consideration in their development and, if so, in what manner he utilized the lift characteristics.

Ted

bkruger · Dec 29, 2003 05:00 PM

#15 source
Ted


>Yeah, nobodies ever defined what's high and what's low. It
>is likely best just to think in relative terms ... i.e.,
>higher and lower. There's little to no chance of a
>competitive stunter ever being at the really gross extents
>of the aspect ratio rainbow. Many high performance
>sailplanes are as much as 30 to one and delta fighters can
>actually be as little as two to one. Either of those
>extremes would be of no value for a stunter.

Concur. That was why I put out three figures in terms of CLStunt. The purpose was just to get a mark on the wall to reference from when you hear the terms "low aspect ratio and high aspect ratio."


....
>
>If you for some reason decide to go super low on the A/R,
>like down to four or less, you are going to have to decide
>on alternate means of developing lift such as much more
>efficient high lift devices to avoid the need for very high
>A or A to perform maneuvers. Plus, you'll need lots of
>ooomph up front because whatever the source of developing
>the required lift it'll come along with a ton of drag.
>
>Make any sense???
>

Makes good sense, and, as always, I learned a little more than I knew a few hours ago.

I am interested in your comments on the effects of A/R versus windup in the wind. I always thought that wing thickness and powerplant had more to do with this than anything else. Some of my ships that were thin winged, such as a Nobler, would, on a windy day, be "honking" on the third inside loop. A similar sized ship such as a Mustunt with a much thicker airfoil was not so ruthless, although it did require more power.

Now I will have to go through some old files and do some calculations on A/R to see if there were other differences.

v/r

Bob Kruger

Randy · Dec 30, 2003 10:13 AM

edited#21 source
Ted,

As you know, I've built some pretty high AR planes. The last was about 7.8 to 1. And most of what you note is true. I never noted any windup and the windy weather performance was mostly quite good, but part of that may have been the power train. The place where the design really falls down is in turbulence. When flying at sites where the turbulence is low (no local obstructions to grind up the air), the wind didn't matter much. I've flown that design in very heavy winds without much concern. but put a few trees around or a building or two (like the Clover Park Site) and it gets very exciting. I just love looking at the planform just as I want to enter a square loop.

As I noted above, there are certain aspects of these designs that show great potential. They do some things really, really well. But the drawbacks are equallly spectacular.

Randy Powell

Edit: I should note that I've built 12 high aspect designs in a progression ranging from 9.5 to 1 to 7 to 1., each building on what I had learned from the last.There were several things I tried in an attempt to moderate the design's rather extreme sensitivity to turbulence. Some things helped, some made it worse. Decreasing flap size, (over several iterations to about half span and one flapless try) helped quite a bit and lessened the tendency to do some creative things in the roll axis. Extending the tail moment and increasing the aft side area seemed to "smooth out the ride" quite a lot, overcoming the jumpiness that had been inherent. Going to a very large and airfoiled stab certainly helped the planes ability to stop turning and be a bit more predictable on the stick, but tended to make it even more sensitive to turbulence. A plethora of wing tips shapes and planforms were tried in an attempt to decrease what I came to think of as the "swinging wing tip" phenonmenon, but ultimately did little to fix the problem. The design has also been pretty susceptable to thermals in really hot weather. All designs are to some extent, but the problems most planes experience are magnified with high AR designs.

I've managed to moderate most of the really ugly side effects while retaining most of the cool stuff, but I don't think the design can fly consistently enough over a range of conditions to make it really viable. It's the "not quite knowing what you're going to get when you hit the controls" that drives you batty.

Lincoln Ross · Dec 30, 2003 10:36 PM

#31 source
I don't think flaps can make up for low aspect ratio. Induced drag is a function of lift^2/span^2, so if your wingspan is low you are going to have a lot of induced drag at the same amount of lift, and therefore need more power. Perhaps if the flaps are sitting in the slipstream from the prop there is some other effect if that slipstream is powerful, but otherwise I don't think there's a substitute for span unless you want to get into draggy things like endplates or assymmetrical things like winglets. However, perhaps there's some special clstunt phenomenon that I don't know about since my model plane experience so far is with other types. Theoretically an unflapped wing with a lot of area ought to provide similar lift and induced drag to a flapped wing of the same span and less area. But maybe I'm missing something as a lot of stunters have flaps. Maybe it's just that 5:1 is prettier than 3.5:1????

godzilla · Dec 29, 2003 04:49 PM

#13 source
>The Skylark 46 has a wing span of 56.5 inches and an average
>cord of 10.906 inches giving it an aspect of 5.15 :1 which
>puts it somewhere between Doug's airplanes. The 35 Skylark
>has a WS of 52 inches with the same cord so it ends up 4.74
>:1 pretty close to the Bear.
>
>Have no idea if this means anything but thought it
>interesting to compare a classic with the modern stuff.

I think it means that you might end up with a little more pitch and a little more "4-2 break" than the next guy who is closer to 6 to 1.

The weight could be a little more of a factor with the lower aspect ratio but only in the extreme case.

All in all, it appears that the AR has most of its effects in the extremes. The Skylark is a good median airplane. I would not lose a lot of sleep over it...

Bob Reeves · Dec 29, 2003 05:23 PM

#16 source
>I think it means that you might end up with a little more
>pitch and a little more "4-2 break" than the next guy who is
>closer to 6 to 1.
>
>The weight could be a little more of a factor with the lower
>aspect ratio but only in the extreme case.

Cool, the ST 46 will be right at home. I just finished the wing and without flaps (haven't built them yet) it's just under 8 ounces ready to cover, don't think this is too bad for a 600 sq/in wing (I hope).

John Sunderland · Jan 02, 2004 03:52 PM

#36 source
In my opinion, for CLPA purposes, any aspect ratio over 5.5:1 would be considered high aspect for the simple fact that the majority of successful designs has hovered around the 5:1 mark for many moons...LOL...even for the Moons! Doug & Steve that is.

John Sunderland`