Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line Ele

Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 34 of 34 known posts recovered

Jerry_Raimo · Dec 28, 2003 03:47 PM

Our club had the privledge of putting on a static display at the new Dulles Airport annex of the air and space museum on Saturday Dec 20th as part of the museums family day. We had a variety of control line models on display including two .19 sized trainers that we let a lot of kids handle that day. We had a ball.

There is enough empty space at the end of the main hangar to fly an electric on 52 foot lines. We hope to get invited back again in May of 2004 at the next major youth event. I am looking for ideas on what to build in order to fly control line stunt in this wonderful venue at our next visit.

If anyone with a scale or stunt c/l electric is interested in travelling to Washington DC to participate in our next show, that would also be welcomed input.

Thanks

Jerry Raimo
NVCL Youth Director
[email protected]

Smitty · Dec 29, 2003 03:42 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#1 source

Hey Jerry, don't know if these can be adapted to control line or not, but I was thinking of trying. The planes are made of blue foam and since you wouldn't need the radio gear, would be cheap to build, Check it out at www.foamyfactory.com There are free plans at the site to down load. Be sure to watch the videos. See ya at the meeting next week.

Bill Smith

Swordsman18 · Jan 14, 2004 03:00 PM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#31 source

>Hey Jerry, don't know if these can be adapted to control
>line or not, but I was thinking of trying. The planes are
>made of blue foam and since you wouldn't need the radio
>gear, would be cheap to build, Check it out at
>www.foamyfactory.com There are free plans at the site to
>down load. Be sure to watch the videos. See ya at the
>meeting next week.

This site was featured in the February 2004 Model Avaition "Flying for Fun" column. Good discussion of motor/prop/battery combinations. These should work for CL sport. And maybe the lightweight "Depron" foam might be a lighter alternative to Coroplast for building SPAD CL models, whatever the powerplant. The consensus is tha Coroplast is too heavy for making wings. Perhaps the Depron would be light enough to make a hollow foam wing with a thick airfoil at a reasonable weight.

Andy

"Real Engines Have Black Cylinder Fins and Red Heads"

Iskandar Taib · Jan 14, 2004 10:10 PM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#32 source

The coroplast is much tougher than depron, though. I see the two materials as being useful in very different sorts of planes. Somewhere in between would be wings cut by hot wire out of white beadboard or blue/pink extruded foam.

Swordsman18 · Jan 15, 2004 08:20 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#33 source

Somewhere in between would be wings cut by hot wire
>out of white beadboard or blue/pink extruded foam.

Igor Burger has got this nailed.

Andy

"Real Engines Have Black Cylinder Fins and Red Heads"

Jay Williams · Dec 29, 2003 09:15 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#2 source

I remember a guy selling those Micro size kits for the Cox .010 on the Bay. That would be super cool for the kids to see and hear one of those small motors running. I finally get my hands on a Cox .010 and he is no where to be found. Anyone know who that guy was?

Jay

treat each day as if it were your last, because one day, it will be.

WINGWALK · Dec 29, 2003 02:59 PM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#3 source

As cool as a Cox .010 would be I don't think they are going to let us in the museum with flamable fluid. Given the space inside I don't think they would like the noise either. If its a nice day we can fly any size plane outside on the ramp as they were willing to let us do at family day. Cold and wind made us think better of that plan!

Jerry is right though. If he or we could come up with an electric plane on short lines, it could be flown in a small section. I'll just bring my electric chopper and add a couple of lines and a handle to it. Think I could fool anyone? LOL

It's a cool museum and the response was great to us I believe. Now if we could keep Tom McClain off the F-4 Exibit....

Kirk Wicker
www.wingwalk.com

grzly23 · Dec 31, 2003 08:50 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#15 source

>It's a cool museum and the response was great to us I
>believe. Now if we could keep Tom McClain off the F-4
>Exibit....
>
>Kirk Wicker
>www.wingwalk.com

Dang, Kirk it is a Marine Phantom. Now if it were a F-4G Wild Weasel or a F-4E Phantom from the California ANG, then you couldn't keep me away from it.

Happy New Year all,

Tom McClain

WINGWALK · Dec 31, 2003 10:13 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#16 source

>Dang, Kirk it is a Marine Phantom. Now if it were a F-4G
>Wild Weasel or a F-4E Phantom from the California ANG, then
>you couldn't keep me away from it.
>
>Happy New Year all,

Now Tom, How in the world would I have been able to tell it was a Marine Phatom? I was to busy climbing down the cables from the ceilning trying to get into Art's Chipmunk!!!

Happy New year to all,

Kirk
www.wingwalk.com

wcrane · Jan 02, 2004 09:23 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#21 source

Cox .010's are not that noisy, even though they are turning somewhere around 30,000 you can easily carry on a conversation while holding a running one without having to raise your voice very much.

Bout as much chance of starting a fire with it as you would have with your sparking commutator on the electric, unless you went brushless.

From somewhere near Parkville, Mo.
William Crane
AMA 6733

WINGWALK · Jan 02, 2004 09:57 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#22 source

I was refering to the super tight security involved taking place at any and all Large, Public, and very note worthy locations. I was not worried about us possibly starting a fire. There is NO WAY they are going to let anyone in the museum with a container of fuel. Of course I could be wrong, but after the guy with the jar of paint and the Enola Gay, I don't think so.

As for the noise. The museum is a very large open hanger with limited sound prooffing. You could say its almost like a large amphatheater (Spelling?) The sound of those 30k RPMs would not be as loud to you or me, but to those others not ever hearing anything like that before, I think they would not like the distraction when they are elsewhere in the museaum. Granted, and I agree as I have run them before, an .010 is not that loud. But when I, as a visitor, am trying to take a video of the exibits. I sure would like to not have the sound over run with a model engine in the background.

Please don't get me wrong. I would love to fly any plane in the museum. It would be nice to do it in a way that would keep evryone happy and hopefully be asked back again. After all, how often do we get a chance to promote model aviation to the public in such an arena?

phantomflier · Dec 29, 2003 03:55 PM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#4 source

Do a search for the .010 cox ringmaster here include the archive files in you search. Lots of information there, enough to build one of the planes.
There is another thread for the Triumph Cub .010 stunter that includes a photo of a CO2 powered plane. The CO2 plane might be an idea for indoor flying especially if you use one of the Davis conversions for the .020 and .049 that will swing 10 - 12 inch props.

Smitty · Dec 29, 2003 07:16 PM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#5 source

LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-03 AT 07:20 PM (CDT)

After surfing the net, I don't see much of a problem going electric with a control line plane. Some of the r/c guys are flying planes on electric with 55 inch wing spans and with a weight of 43 to 56 oz.
They are claiming to have as much power as a .40 size I/C engine.
The only problem I see is how to control the motor to get it to act like a 4-2-4 break. When I was younger I had a friend that had a free flight plane that had two swinging pendulums installed to control the flight path. Maybe something like this could be used.
When the nose is elevated the pendulm would swing toward the rear of the plane and cause more current to be applied to the motor, giving more power. When in level flight or with the nose pointed down, a preset amount of current would be applied. I'm not a engineer, but in these "If you can dream it, it can happen days in which we live in" I'm sure something along these lines can be done to control the motor. The rest would be pretty much a piece of cake. Any thoughts on how this could be done? Check this out: www.stevensaero.com/scaleaero.html

If they can fly these, why couldn't an ARF Nobler be converted to electric, once the 2-4-2 issue is solved, or maybe someone already has.

Bill Smith

tperry2054 · Dec 29, 2003 07:27 PM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#6 source

LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-03 AT 07:28 PM (CDT)

Slow the motor down by placing a resistor in series with the power supply. Use a mercury switch to bypass the resistor when airplane is pointed up.

Tom

Max1998 · Dec 29, 2003 10:37 PM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#7 source

I have been thinking of trying a c02 powered plane for indoor ect, just for fun at the indoor meets during the winter.The only problem I have is how do we get a engine shut of.The motor slows down as the charge ends .I think indoor it would be ok as you could land and do taxi laps as it slows to a stop ,but if there was any wind this could be a problem.It would be nice to be able to shut it of though?
Why would you need a 4 2 4 on your electric? It should be fine and especially since it is just for a indoor demo.The elecric motor responds to load also.As the load increases the amperage goes up and as the load decreases it goes down .I am no expert on electric planes but I do not feel that you should have any problems.It well be more a constant speed flight ,but is that not what most 1/2A planes ect are?Have fun and the best to you all in the New Year. Dennis

Dennis Pedersen

dana wall · Dec 30, 2003 04:49 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#11 source

one other problem i have hear of in co2 stunt is the rubber o-rings freezing and the head getting a liqued co2 charge when going inverted. there is one guy in our local Free flight club that has an old .049 solid balsa CL kit version of the hawker huricane (consolidated?) that he made into co2 power with a Gmot-120(?). He forgot to make the cowl removable to adjust the motor. I don't remember if he has flown it yet. Jan 7 is our club meeting and i will get a picture of it then. It looks very neat with a clear and green cammo paint job.

Brett Buck · Dec 29, 2003 11:05 PM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#8 source

>The only problem I see is how to control the motor to get it
>to act like a 4-2-4 break.
>If they can fly these, why couldn't an ARF Nobler be
>converted to electric, once the 2-4-2 issue is solved, or
>maybe someone already has.

Why in the world is that going to be necessary? Get a motor that will spin a 10-4 at 11000 rpm, and don't worry about it - the prop will regulate the speed sufficiently. It won't challenge regular engines in terms of power/weight, but there's really no solution to that problem.

Brett

cyberflyer · Dec 30, 2003 01:28 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#9 source

>If they can fly these, why couldn't an ARF Nobler be
>converted to electric, once the 2-4-2 issue is solved, or
>maybe someone already has.

Oddly enough, this has been discussed...

http://www.clstunt.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=7018&forum=DCForumID1

The Cat Whisperer

Brett Buck · Jan 03, 2004 04:15 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#27 source

>The only problem I see is how to control the motor to get it
>to act like a 4-2-4 break. When I was younger I had a
>friend that had a free flight plane that had two swinging
>pendulums installed to control the flight path. Maybe
>something like this could be used.
>When the nose is elevated the pendulm would swing toward the
>rear of the plane and cause more current to be applied to
>the motor, giving more power. When in level flight or with
>the nose pointed down, a preset amount of current would be
>applied.

Even though I don't think this is at all necessary for the intended purpose, the pendulum for sure won't work. A pendulum doesn't find local vertical, it finds the local acceleration vector. As soon as you go into a maneuver, the accelartion is mostly "down" in the airplane frame, not "down" as in towards the Earth. It doesn't work the way you want it to.

Something like a pitot tube, or a wind vane, would work a lot better. Or just rig something to add power when the controls are deflected - in either direction.

Brett

dana wall · Dec 30, 2003 03:07 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#10 source

The tony of the blacksheep squadron was one of the first to fly electric cl. his phone # is 818-842-5062 . The president of the club has also made a few. his ph # is 818-782-1465. They seam to favor converting freeflight airplanes to electric cl. They work and look great. Some types of planes used is a peanut (13"Wingspan)freeflight, "FF", plane or a simpler NoCal (peanut with profile fuselage) FF plane.

There is a good electronics surplus shop here in LA,CA named All Electric that sells a miniature motor perfect for a peanut conversion; DCM-166 for $0.75 each. they also sell some used 2/3aa 3 cell nicad packs for $1.00 NCB-23U and six cell ni-mh packs for $1.50. Breaking the a fore mentioned battery packs into two cell packs with the above motor should be good for a peanut size plane, 13" wingspan. web address www.allelectronics.com

Tony sells props for direct drive and there are some other props listed in the ama mag.

dirtydan · Dec 30, 2003 02:24 PM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#12 source

I noticed mention of CO2-powered CL models and thought I would slip in the fact that I have a pile of FF ARF models which come with the motor, charger, and all other stuff less only a bit of glue and CO2 cartridges.

We converted a couple of these models to what we call cul-de-sac fliers, and they worked well enough outdoors, are assumed to work better indoors.

Or leave them unmolested, as they are excellent sport FF models...

The ARF kits are $28.50. ($25.00 for the kit, $3.50 for shipping via U.S.P.S.) Checks go to Dan Rutherford, 4705 237th Place SE, Bothell, WA 98021.

Dan

dana wall · Dec 31, 2003 12:06 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#13 source

Are these those arf russian white foam hi wing planes? Name starts with an I. Dana

Swordsman18 · Dec 31, 2003 08:39 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#14 source

>Are these those arf russian white foam hi wing planes? Name
>starts with an I. Dana

IOHUOP, which when translated from the Cyrillic script I suspect may turn out to be "Junior". An all-foam high wing FF sport model, really cute, and cheap. I have one NIB on a shelf...

Andy

"Real Engines Have Black Cylinder Fins and Red Heads"

dana wall · Dec 31, 2003 01:55 PM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#17 source

I have one unused. I couldn't get the engine to run for more then 10 secs. I need to have some one in our local FF club to readjust the engine. Nice kit/arf though. Since then I have got some gasparin motors but have not built anything for them.

Steve Helmick · Jan 01, 2004 01:52 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#18 source

LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-04 AT 01:35 AM (CDT)

There are dozens of electric "Park Flyers" that could work for CL, and I believe Mel Duvall from Florida that converted something like the "Fundango" (see Tower catalog or website). The Kyosho "Spree" also looks like it might work alright. Hobby Lobby has bunches of Park Flier Warbirds and Aerobatic types that should work well enough. Something moderately clean and fast should work better for line tension, I think. Even if you add a second battery pack, without radio gear, it might still go well. Watch the vertical CG, tho. Steve

http://www.hobby-lobby.com/
http://www.towerhobbies.com/

http://www.nwskyraiders.com/index.html

Mel Duval · Jan 03, 2004 03:42 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#25 source

I have converted a GWS Lite Stick and it flew very well indeed. And at less than $25, it was cheap to do. I have a Slow Stick now that I have been looking at which has a bigger motor and has about twice as large a span. It looks like it would be a great C/L plane. The Slow Stick has real good elevator authority as an R/C which is just what is needed for C/L. And it is only $35. Quick and dirty would be to use a parkflyer receiver and speed control for the motor. Or just wire a microswitch with a third line to cut the motor. Best would be the Ztron like Windy uses.
There are a large number of aerobatic parkflyers now and the new motors and batteries ae becoming cheaper by the day. If you get a chance, look at some of the Fan Fold Foam (FFF) planes like the 3DX and Ultimate Bipes on Ezonemag.com in the "Foamies" section. This uses 3/8" blue foam insulation board and a motor like the Slow Stick on profile flat plate airfoil airframes. This is an excellent way to make planes cheaply and if you break one, who cares? In twenty minutes you can have another made to replace it. I think FFF would be a great "Junkyard Wars" event.

later,
Mel D.

Swordsman18 · Jan 01, 2004 07:27 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#19 source

>I have one unused. I couldn't get the engine to run for more
>then 10 secs. I need to have some one in our local FF club
>to readjust the engine. Nice kit/arf though. Since then I
>have got some gasparin motors but have not built anything
>for them.

The Gasparins are excellent. The motor in the "Junior" is a Modela I believe, and they don't run so long. One trick to try is to put the tank in some ice when you charge it, and be sure to hold the source canister top-down to get a liquid charge. Start it right away though, since it can overpressure if fully charged and allowed to sit too long. This can damage the engine. Ask me how I know...

Definitely get some experienced FF help if available. Maybe Dan can offer some more tips, since he sells them, and has extensive experience flying them too.

Andy

"Real Engines Have Black Cylinder Fins and Red Heads"

dennis · Jan 02, 2004 09:00 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#20 source

For CO2 use the Davis is light years ahead of anything the Russians or Gasparin has in terms of sheer power. They are larger then most of the other units in that they are converted Cox 020 and 049 motors. However, your biggest problem might be carrying a tank big enough to do a Significant flight.
I had built an RC delta wing type of model. for the 049 and used the 150cc tank which is a formidable thing to mount and service. It was the heaviest part of the plane. Davis makes a nice valve available for use as a throttle.
As you know CO2 motors are strange animals,the CO2 should be cold and the weather should be about 90 degrees for maximum efficiency. Since your flying with the drag of lines you'll probably need to go to the higher rpm's and then freezing can become a real problem. Remember there are no 5k rpm CO2 units so prop selection will take a little work too.
With all that I've just said I have mentioned quite a few times to some of my flying friends about doing this sometime. They are all aware of my passion for strange and unusual planes. Dennis

Steve Helmick · Jan 02, 2004 07:07 PM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#23 source

LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-04 AT 07:08 PM (CDT)

I just discovered the "Mad Dog" and "Wild Cat" electric ARFs in a Hobby People catalog. These things would work! $119.99. Steve

http://www.hobbypeople.net/

http://www.nwskyraiders.com/index.html

phantomflier · Jan 02, 2004 11:13 PM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#24 source

These would probably work for level flying but you probably need a stronger motor for stunt flying and a much larger battery to get more than a couple minutes air time. The addition of lines to the plane and flying in a state of constant acceleration requires a lot more power. 30 oz on 290 sq in wing (thin probably) is like a 40 oz ringmaster

Brett Buck · Jan 03, 2004 04:07 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#26 source

>These would probably work for level flying but you probably
>need a stronger motor for stunt flying and a much larger
>battery to get more than a couple minutes air time. The
>addition of lines to the plane and flying in a state of
>constant acceleration requires a lot more power. 30 oz on
>290 sq in wing (thin probably) is like a 40 oz ringmaster

I would think that a balsa-wing Skyray with a pretty standard "can" motor and a 6-cell pack would provide reasonable performance for a trainer, for long enough for training flights. It won't make it with sterling performance for a whole pattern (see the other thread for a "serious" stunt plane effort) but it will be fine for your purpose, I think.

Maybe I'll stick one together and see.

Brett

dana wall · Jan 11, 2004 05:37 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#28 source

here are the photos of the planes i promised. the consolidated hawker huricane is powered by a small gaspairen co2 motor, G-24 i think, the at-6 is electric with a speed 300 motor in it. the people i mentioned before know more about them and electric cl.

Iskandar Taib · Jan 12, 2004 05:52 AM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#29 source

I'll be exploring the GWS route using the type of planes you see at www.foamyfactory.com. There's a mind-boggling variety of motors, props and gearbox ratios to choose from. Fly them on lightweight Spectra lines. The latest Flying Models has a lot of info about Li-Po batteries and their care and feeding, and there's also the schematics for a 555 and MOSFET based circuit that will shut down the motor at a cutoff voltage, so you can land the plane without it breaking the prop or worse.

dirtydan · Jan 12, 2004 02:05 PM

RE: Ideas needed for Indoor Control Line#30 source

Dana,

If the motor in your CO2 ARF--the motor being a copy of the Modela unit--won't run for more than 10 seconds, something is wrong with it.

Or, more likely, there is a leak someplace in the system.

Back when SIG was distributing these for me, Mikey was always after me to quit being so conservative on the run time; I was telling people 60 seconds or so of power, others were always getting more.

If you'll send just the motor/tank/lines assembly to me, I'll be glad to look at it and get it up to spec. No charge for work or parts, but do enclose enough to get it shipped back to you.

Dan