Pro C/L Handle

I'm attempting the daunting task of sending a picture to SSW. Refering to the previous threads pertaining to hard-point vs, Soft-point handles- I've included a picture of my "don't forget which way is up!" handle. This handle incorporates all the high zoot goodies but also clearly points out which way is "up". (It still requires a short check-list to make sure it is not installed incorrectly.) Thanks to Dale McCord for designing and presenting this masterpiece to me. Since I started using it, I havn't made that embarrassing Forty dollar Bolly take-off once! So although these handles sell for 400 dollars, after ten successful take-offs, the handle has paid for itself! Best regards,

Well, I just need a little down-sizing is all. Thanks for yall's patience!

Very cool & patriotic Dale. Just don't accidently sit on it or poke yourself in the eye with it during manouevers.

Funny, but I really do not understand how anyone can have the handle upside down if the handle is constructed properly. This means having a safety thong attatched to the bottom of the handle. This is mandatory in competition, and anywhere if you want your AMA insurance to apply. With the thong on the bottom of the handle, when putting it on your wrist makes upside down virtually impossible. Also one should always check the up and down anyway before release.
Your handle does not seem to have a safety thong. Remember its others safety you are protecting when you use the thong.
Brian

Brian,

Trust me, it's been done. I agree that it shouldn't happen and all that, but unless the handle is surgically attached, you can bet someone has goofed. I saw it happen at the NATS - makes you want to cry.

Ron King

LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-04 AT 01:30 AM (CDT)
 
>Funny, but I really do not understand how anyone can have
>the handle upside down if the handle is constructed
>properly.

There are two types of people when it comes to having the handle upside down. THOSE WHO HAVE DONE IT AND THOSE WHO WILL. Kinda like crashing a plane no matter how good or careful we are it will happen.

It happened to me when I was out until dark on saturday trying to trim a plane for a contest on sunday then went home and spent a couple hours making the changes that were indicated at the field. Was back at the field at 6 am Sunday went through my normal routine, checked that everything was correct (I thought) but operating on only about 2 hours sleep proceeded to hook the lines up backwards with predictable results. Was supposed to ride with a friend to the contest called him and canceled.

It happened to Al Rabe this past summer when his routine got changed. Al is a former Walker Cup winner. He told the story of what happened on this site if you are interested.

I always attach my safety strap in the middle of the handle. It can be arranged so that it does not interfere with the grip, and I suspect you stand a better chance of minimising the damage if you do let go the handle. When attached at the bottom, the result is full down, QED. I agree the end result depends on the attitude of the model at the point you let go, wherever the strap is attached, but I do think the best compromise is halfway between the up and down line. Am I alone in this reasoning?

Here is one way it happens
1 Go to big happy contest; everyone leaves planes hooked up.
Saw guys across the way looking closly at planes
Later guy started his plane a crash ensued;post mortem; handle upside
down.
I went over to my plane ,which had been behind his ,to preflight
. checked the controls ; they were reversed.
The strange thing about this was, that i had checked my lines when
the plane was first set up .
Didn,t know the guys that were huddled around the planes nor could
identify them.

THIS IS A TRUE STORY!
MoRal: check your lines before every flight as you run them out.
You do run them out don,t you?
You do wipe them down don,t you?
Well thats two times to check them.
You do have a mark to signify the up end don,t you?

Hmmmm (maybe I could catch Bill Little looking the other way and;;;;;;;

Charlie Pate

Unfortunately, you could still hook it up backwards..

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"The disappearance of a sense of responsibility is the most far-reaching consequence of submission to authority." -Stanley Milgram

LOVE IT

ARROWS:o Heck, I never even saw the indians!

Kirk ( I would never where a thong in public ) Wicker

That was for you Scott.

OOOO, I just LOVE the Native American motif! It looks like something I would find really handy.

Dale,

One thing I'd like to point out: the line clips shown on your photo are not recommended. I used this type for years, but one day my piped .40 ship turned toward me right after launch. It took off, free flighted across the circle, and hit the end of the lines hard at about 50 MPH, turned about 180 degrees, flew back across the circle and repeated this behavior, then went back for a third transition. On the third hit, I managed to crash it.

And when I retrieved the shards, one of the line clips had opened and was bent about 90 degrees.. In spite of what others had told me about this style of line clip, apparently I just had to see it fail on my own..

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"If I had a hammer, I'd use it on Peter, Paul, and Mary." -Howard Rosenberg

Larry,
What type clips do you recommend? Was the crash caused by the clips or was the snap at 50 mph causing them to open.
Thanks
Brian

LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-04 AT 01:32 AM (CDT)
 
You might be able to correct this, but my experience is that the line clip was opened by the bang on the end of the lines -- which might have broken a line if the clip had not opened. In 25 years of using those clips on every kind of plane from fast combat to racing to stunt planes, I have never seen one open under flying load. I have seen them bend when a slack plane bangs on the end of the lines, but I have never seen one actually release the plane.
I do use the scissor type clips for fast combat planes and heavy stunters, just because everybody says we should, though I have never actually had a problem. The thing I don't like about the scissor clips is that they can turn over and throw you way out of trim. And they are harder to work for clutzes like me.
Worst that happens with the sliders normally us just an eyelet turning over, which is not as much of a problem.
Everybody has their own preference. The scissors undoubtedly are stronger and will make you feel more secure if nothing else.
--jt

You're right, they don't fail in "normal" use. The line cut my finger on this incident (when I tried to grab them after the first hit) - the ship hits the end of the lines VERY hard. The clip opened, bent, and was just short of turning loose.

The scissor type clips are heavier duty and physically heavier.. I like the lighter clips myself, but they really aren't up to "incidents".

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"Integrity is what we do, what we say, and what we say we do." -Don Galer

The scissor clips are not perfect, either. I lost a plane last summer when the lines went slack and the down line snagged the up line's scissor clip. The plane then did 2 1/2 outside loops while I tried to free the line. SPLAT!

I have been flying since the early 1960's with the slide clips and haven't had any problems. I just use the super heavy duty jobs and don't worry about the extra drag. I also have some problems with my hands (old age, accidents, etc.) that make it difficult to manipulate the scissor clips.

Ron King

I've heard this argument multiple times. And multiple times from Combat, Carrier and Race pilots I've heard Balderdash. I have heard of failures, as proven by posts on this thread, of BOTH types of connectors. I wonder what the stats work down to if we looked at usage by numbers each against failure rate? Bet there pretty close. Any difference probably made up by folks who forget to center the slider on the Sullivan style.

But don't take my word for it, lets look at the competition rule book.

From Competition Regulations
5.1. Each load-bearing line connector
shall have a test rating equal to at least the total
pull test required on the model (i.e., if the
model requires a 40-pound pull test, the con-nectors
will have to be test rated at a minimum
of 40 pounds each). The burden of proof of the
test ratings of line connectors shall be the con-testant’s
responsibility. Test ratings on factory-packed
connectors will be considered as acceptable proof.

Hmmmm, where in there does it say the Sullivan Slide connectors are 'Not Recomended'?

From what I have heard, this all came about when someone had formed a deal with the McMahon connectors distribution, and I don't remember Bob Beardon as the name, and was trying to corner a market by trying to make everyone use HIS connectors. It didn't happen. Used properly the Sullivans are just fine and sometimes are the only way to make lines that are just a tad off in length, work with different handles by using the different sizes of connectors.

Personally, I use the McMahon connectors primarily and generally get a couple more packets every time I run by Melvin's. Mostly due to the fact that THIS IDIOT, that would be ME, cannot remember whether he put the slider back in the center after connecting his lines. Oh have I had Looooong flights where the thought that I couldn't remember putting that sucker back. I've also had flights where I found out that I didn't, and it made the flight fine. Then again, I didn't have any shock loads during those flights.

The new Sullivan scissor connector I have trouble forcing open and over the line collets. Hell, I can't get the 'Scisoor action' working on them at all. I don't usually have much in the way of fingernails so that doesn't help either.

So use whatever connector you wish, as long as it passes the pull test you are there. Most of the 'I wouldn't use that type' in this particular issue are from well intentioned folks who are passing around the same but WRONG and purposefully incorrect, information. Some of this comes from personal preference as well and is argued vehemontly. Not that we competitors ever argue endlessly about anything right? BOM, ARF, Pipes, etc. Oh heck, EVERYTHING.

Grain of salt? Try the whole salt lick

From somewhere near Parkville, Mo.
Just like Bill, I've never been there, done that or designed anything that blew up on the pad.
William Crane
AMA 6733

What a fine handle. Be sure to show it to Phil Granderson.

This handle was a "gift" from Dale McCord that he gave me after I pulled a boo-boo at the Dallas Summer Heat contest. I guess the heat got to me......Anyway I took off with the handle upside down (lanyard dangling uselessly- I don't use thongs either!- and of coarse started scraping the prop tips. So I flopped the handle over and into my left hand so now I'm flying the plane and at least didn't lose it. Very embarrassing. Next contest Dale M. presented me with his "fix", to the delight of all! I don't actually use this handle, but it could be used and I would certainly change out the clips. My Greb designed "Polecat" Goodyear racer flew across the circle slack once and when it banged the end of the lines, BOTH clips opened completely. So I don't use them. Best regards,

BOY HOWDY !!! I am ammazed at the varried response to a simple joke, from one Dale to another Dale ! The handle, although probably just as functional and safe as some " store bought ", was intended for FUN, and not actual use. Forget the line connectors, the use of a safety stap, and LAUGH at it. If anyone would like one of there own, I will gladly make them one, less the connectors, with no safety, for a discounted price of $395.00.

THE OTHER DALE IN DMAA

Hey! What's wrong with it? It looks perfectly usable to me. I've seen many well used ratty looking handles (e.g. my own) that are not any more viable.

I like it. I'd use one (I'm old now and don't care if people laugh at me..)

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"Poetry is like fish: if it's fresh, it's good; if it's stale, it's bad; and if you're not certain, try it on the cat." -Osbert Sitwell

Last year, at Palisades Park, Rich Peabody saw me use the same line clips as on the photo. His reaction was: throw it away! He gave me these clips and I never looked back!

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXFU29&P=0

>I like it. I'd use one (I'm old now and don't care if people
>laugh at me..)
>

I never did...

And would that include shipping?
Kirk:P

There is a problem with the scissor-snap type connector (known in the fishing trade as the "McMahon Snap"). The problem is that they are not being made any more. If you see any, snap them up. I think Melvin Schuette has Bob Bearden's collection of these things, you can get some from him. Brodak carries some, too, I think. But once these are gone, they're gone. They came in three sizes - the smallest is rated at 80 pounds, which is 35 pounds over the rating for .018 lines. The biggest is very large, and rated at 165 pounds. You might need these if you're going to use attachment points like the ones in the handle above (you probably won't be able to open up the smaller clips wide enough).

If you can't get McMahon Snaps, there are clips called "Coast-locks" that are immensely strong, which can be used on hardpoint handles (where the clips don't have a chance to interfere with each other). Or you could do a Dirty Dan and bend clips out of piano wire.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-04 AT 09:02 AM (CDT)
 
>There is a problem with the scissor-snap type connector
>(known in the fishing trade as the "McMahon Snap"). The
>problem is that they are not being made any more.

hey isky what about this???
just toss everything except the snap????

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jhtml?id=0000016112231a&type=product&cmCat=static_product

or here?

http://www.leadertec.com/Tacklestore_snapscons.html
Pro rigger McMahon snaps
Old time tuna fishermen knew a thing or two about big fish. They used these snaps, also known as Hawaiian or spring snaps. Very strong for their size and impossible to spring open during a fight. We rate them very highly. Black finish stainless steel. Pack of 5

Size Breaking strain Length mm Price US$
4 60 lb 19 1.20
5 80 lb 22 1.75
6 110 lb 29 1.95
7 150 lb 35 2.25
9 275 lb 53 3.50

How interesting. Maybe they are being made again (Berkley used to sell them). Cabela's even lists two sizes - the 44 and 180 lb test ones - that I've never ever seen before.

>BOY HOWDY !!! I am ammazed at the varried response to a
>simple joke, from one Dale to another Dale ! The handle,
>although probably just as functional and safe as some "
>store bought ", was intended for FUN, and not actual use.
>Forget the line connectors, the use of a safety stap, and
>LAUGH at it. If anyone would like one of there own, I will
>gladly make them one, less the connectors, with no safety,
>for a discounted price of $395.00.
>
>THE OTHER DALE IN DMAA

The check is in the mail. But I want a safety with it. Steve

Alright, for the sake of safety, I will include a " thong " for the discount price of $395. ( you still must use the connectors of your choice ). Shipping is included! Don't forget to include size of thong needed when you place your order. DRM

The easiest way to make sure you don't take off with the handle upside down is to check BEFORE the plane is released. Don't wiggle the handle!! Just hold full up and look which way the elevator is pointing. If it is pointing up, neutralize the controls and signal your helper to release the model.

A lot of people wiggle the handle which only tells you that both lines are connected. Hit full control, hold it for a second, and make sure it is the direction you really want.

Dale

That's just to cool:D

All this talk about weak line clips, good line clips, good line clips that some people cannot open properly, line clips which are out of production, my head hurts.

The answer is simple and has been around for many years: Drill an aluminum (it has to be aluminum, as we are CL guys and light materials, including tip weight, are always required) plate for suitably spaced 3/16" steel (Ooops!) pins and bend up a pile of strong, cheap clips from .047 piano wire. Or .055 wire for the really cautious.

When it comes to CL handles, and while I will be using Ted Handles this next year, for sport and P-40 I have just finished what will be regarded as a truly killer handle. No hints or pictures, you'll have to be at the 2004 NW Regionals in order to witness the unveiling. People are flat going to freak, it is that good...

For those who are truly interested in hard-point handles which really work, I would refer you to Keith Varley's multiple attempts at posting a picture which (finally!) Steve Helmick had to post. Keith's handle is really cool, and please note the fabricated connectors--obliterated somewhat by tubing--which Keith makes in a whole bunch of different lengths in order to accurately adjust the centering of his handle.

Mr. Dan man

You are completely frustrating. Drill an aluminum plate for the appropriate size? Pins, handles, HEADACHES?

Listen, if you are going to make blank statements at least have some data to back them up, pictures and drawings if necesary. I go into work early, so it's a little cloudy. Where's a picture of your clip bending jig? How do I know what appropriate is? What if it's mearly off-color, is that OK?

Then you tell us not only do you forget to put pictures in, in the case of your handle, YOU"RE NOT GOING to put pictures in!! HUH????

Then you reference a handle photo but give no link to it. Like the rest of us do nothing else but hang on this website all day long and know exactly what archane reference you are making.

I demand a, uh, .....

I just invented this line attachment mechanism for hard point handles. 3/8 sq. uhmw plastic.8/32 eye bolt is jammed into 6/32 tapped hole for a nice tight friction fit,(no accidental loss of adjustment)Hope this image will post,it emails great. Keith V

Must be some way to post these pics Keith

wcrane,

No pictures of my latest handle as it is destined for unveiling at the 2004 NW Regionals. I probably should have kept my mouth shut, fingers away from the keyboard, this being the sort of advice I get quite a lot of and rarely accept.

But you'll see it! That sucker is so cool you're gonna get tired of seeing it...

Keith Varley's handle is pictured upstream in this thread.

Although the handle to which I refer is most definitely *not* the one he put up today. Or yesterday. Anyway, while the rest of us are trimming weight from our handles, Keith is now into adding weight. In one of the worst areas to do so, especially with his wild, arm-swinging style of flying.

The 3/16" or 1/4" steel pins are simply inserted into holes drilled in a base plate, mine happens to be aluminum and is clamped in the jaws of a machinist vise for use. The pins are positioned so as to allow insertion of piano wire between them, about .060 inch. The pins themselves are .500 long and protrude from plate about .250 inch.

With wire inserted between pins, make first bend. Mark base to reflect amount of bend. Flop wire over, make a nearly complete loop. With wire repositioned, bend wire to center.

Yeah, I know this description sucks. Make the plate, insert the pins, try to replicate a standard SIG line clip. Fiddle until you get it right.

"Yeah, I know this description sucks. Make the plate, insert the pins, try to replicate a standard SIG line clip. Fiddle until you get it right."

FINALLY, you are starting to make sense.