Stunt model for Cox TD 09? And muffler

Ok, I am getting back to c/l after decades. I have hooked up with Dave Soban and others in San Diego. I have crashed the "club trainer". Yeh... I was a little over confident. I am getting a ringmaster going, am having Larry Foster work over a Fox 35, (thank you Larry!), am planning on building an old El Diablo, and maybe get one of them Noblarfs.

But I am still thinking ahead. I have a NIB Cox TD 09 and want a nice, full-bodied stunter for it. Any recommentdations? Also, since we have to use a muffler at our field, what should I do for a muffler for the 09? Or??
Thank you for any advice...or support.
Nick V

Get the Mirabilis plans from Stuka Stunt Works.

The Pinto (Baby Oriental) from RSM is really nice!

Larry, that would be quite a trick getting that TD09 in a Pinto. Course it would be interesting to watch the first flight. Dennis

> Larry, that would be quite a trick getting that TD09 in a
>Pinto. Course it would be interesting to watch the first
>flight.

Build two Pinto wings and make a biplane!

Jim Thomerson's Cheap Thrill. He even gives you the dimensions to shorten the nose to suit the .09.

Article and 1/4 scale plan from AMA archive, Plan from AMA.

Bewdiful!

Too much motor for a Pinto.

Go with a Streak Jr, or Lightning Streak, Jr.

Jr. Nobler. But you have to watch the fuel tank space limitation.

You guys got me! Of course the Pinto is too small. I misread the engine size. You would like to have a plane of about 280 sq. in. weighing in around 17 ounces. I don't think there is anything quite that size/weight out there. My impression is that the wood sizes on the two 'Streaks and the Jr.Nobler are all way too heavy.

You would be better off scaling down some plan you like and sizing the wood appropriately to the engine.

The three airplanes I have flown with a TD 09 are the #4 Easy, a scratch built Shark 15, and a Jr. Flitestreak. All flew fine. I ran my TD 09's on crankcase pressure, with a oneway valve in the pressure line. Sig Champion 10% nitro 20% 50/50 oil runs fine. Cox high compression head. I like the Cox 7 x 3.5 prop. Release at about 14,500-15,000 depending on the wind. 52 - 57' 012 lines. I flew the Easy in Old Time, and the Shark and Flitestreak in Classic and PAMPA Advanced with moderate success.

Wow! Thanks to all for the advice. I figured I would get good suggestions. I will look into the various planes, though where would I find the #4 Easy?

Also, what about a muffler for the Cox 09? Is there one available? I do have to have some kind of a muffler at my field, though they don't measure the sound level...

Thanks again for the advice; I am still open to options...
Nick Vanmatre

>Jr. Nobler. But you have to watch the fuel tank space
>limitation.

Not with a TD 09! I'm all for not overpowering models, but a TD 09 in a Jr. Nobler is really pushing the limits. It shows a TD 15 on the plans, and mine flew well with a OS 25S.

The last version of the TD 09 was set up for RC with a carb and muffler. I have no idea if the muffler would fit an earlier TD 09, but it might still be available. A TD 09 does make some noise.

The RC 09 was one of "my" engines. It uses a special cylinder with no free-porting. That (or any) muffler would really degrade the performance of a standard Tee Dee.

>That (or any) muffler would
>really degrade the performance of a standard Tee Dee.

OK, so maybe my idea of using my pretty NIB Cox 09 isn't so good because of my need for a muffler. I went schuffling through my engine box and found.... a NIB OS Max FSR .10 !! It does have a r/c carb. but I assume I could use the muffler and convert it to u/c use. And again, I assume the same airplanes for the Cox 09 would work with the OS Max 10.??

Nick Vanmatre:9

LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-04 AT 08:42 PM (CDT)
 
Sorry, I was under the impression that the TD 09 is similar in power to an old buffle 15 engine. I better put a Medallion 15 in my unbuild Jr. Nobler instead.

BTW, the COX engine in the Jr Nobler plan is a Sportsman 15.

Edit:
Andy is right. The engine is a Olympic 15. I didn't notice the ball bearing before. Thanks for the correction.

With respect to a muffler, I have 2 types COX mufflers for the 09 - one looks a life saver lollipop for the Medallion 09 and the other one is for the RC 09. Both will fit the TD 09. I also found the muffler for the Queen Bee can be made to fit the TD 09 as well. As a side note, Larry Renger has cautioned me about the use of muffler for a TD 09. I don't understand the technical reason but he is THE expert when it comes to COX engines.

Edit: I see Larry posted just before I did.

Sorry, Not a Sportsman .15 on Jr. Nobler plans. It's an Olympic .15 shown on the plans. Big performance difference between the two. Andy

I think a Wee Duper Zilch would go well with the .09!
TD might be a bit much, even.
The WDZ is an easy build, OTS legal, too.
Bill <><

The TD 09 is really a small, fairly powerful, 15 in disguise. It is, according to Aeromodeller reviews, more powerful than most of the older baffle 15's or earlier diesel 15's. I do not doubt it is more powerful than a Sportsman 15. Having flow both, I would say a TD 09 is maybe a little (not much) behind a Medallion 15. I flew my Jr. Flitestreak with TD 09 (Cox 7 x 3.5) and AB Trixter Profile with ST G20-15 diesel (8 x 4 APC) on the same set of 57' .012 lines. Lap times on the Flitestreak were slightly faster than lap times for the Trixter. Kiwi timed the Jr. Flitestreak on 55 ft. lines turning 3.8 second laps. A little fast for PA!

>Ok, I am getting back to c/l after decades. I have hooked
>up with Dave Soban and others in San Diego. I have crashed
>the "club trainer".

Hi Nick!!

Don't think of it as "crashing the club trainer" so much as "adding to the rich patina of a fine old Skyray"!

Glad to see you on the forum! Hope to see you and the others this weekend. Three weeks away is FAR too long...

God bless!

Thanks Mike,
I probably will stop by on Sat, though I really want to have a plane of my own to fly, rather than the "club trainer." I am having trouble just getting everything together. Now, I need a muffler for this OS Max 25 --an old style r/c engine that has a carb with a flap on the exhaust....

Nick Vanmatre

by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.

I believe the opening statement was for a full bodied stunt plane for a TD09. We have somehow as usual drifted away from the origional intent of the post.
The first answers were the usual Jr streak,and and other not so noteworthy designs.
Simply put there is not a good specific 15 size full bodied kit on the market that I know of
Kudows of course to John Brodak,Walter Umland, Eric Rule and Larry Richards for their efforts,and for producing some very nice PROFILE kits.
Even in the historical archives of my memory I'm at a loss to name many 15 sized full fuse planes, and the 3 that come to mind are the Pacemaker from Top Flight, and the Jr Nobler, in my opinion one of the ugliest planes to ever be produced, and the Ringmaster Flash.
Yes some will say the Jr T Bird and others but they were for a 19 or larger motor.
When we get to the 09 the situation is even worse as you are then back to the really vintage flapless designs of Debolt and others.
Even worse many of these older designs do really fly better with motors of less displacement then they were designed for.
Wth perhaps 50 thousand 09/15 motors or more laying in drawers collecting dust and a bunch of people, myself included, who really like the little suckers wanting something new nifty, timely, and readily available, Where is the Beef.
Really, think about it. lots of full stunt sized ships,1/2A's, profiles till you can't stand to look at another one of them, and a great big hole for the sub 35 sized full stunt ship. Is there no market for them. Is everone strictly contest,vintage,classic oriented.Is there no kit manufacture willing to do what Top Flite did and test the water.
Dennis

Dennis makes a good point. There is a lack of good, really good, 09-15 size u/c stunt airplanes--with a full-body. So, one idea would be to scale down a "really good" big (regular sized) stunt model. Ok, I guess. I'm sure that can be done, and has been...

In my mind I thought about scaling down the size of a model, but altering the construction to more modern materials/techniques, in order to maximize performance. So, this revision of an older model would be very light, appropriately powered, and would incorporate performance techniques/materials. I am too much of a beginner to do that kind of a revision myself, though I sure would like to replicate someone else's efforts.

And, to keep this posting "on topic" power it with one of those 50,000 odd Cox 09s-15s sitting in the drawer. BTW, I have 2 of the Cox 09s in that drawer. Unfortunately, both without a muffler.
A friend has volunteered to attempt to make a muffler for it for me; albeit, we are expecting some diminished performance. In our case however, our muffler construction efforts are going to be focused on "form" and not "funtion." That is, at our field, it doesn't matter how well it works, it just has to look like a muffler. The PC police can stand down; at this field there isn't a noise problem.
Nick V

>A friend has volunteered to attempt to make a muffler for it
>for me; albeit, we are expecting some diminished
>performance. In our case however, our muffler construction
>efforts are going to be focused on "form" and not "funtion."

There is a place in Louisiana that builds tuned pipe type mufflers for engines .049 size and up. You need a header to attach it so since you are making going to make something how about a header then use theirs. The company is: Bayou Products P.O.Box 15182 Baton Rouge La, 70895. They are on Ebay all the time a search for quiet pipes will generally find several listings. Wouldn't have to worry about the PC police, you would actually have sound reduction, and possibly a gain in performance. One more thing they test some of their designs on control line planes.

Dennis: There are an entire series of 15 sized, full fuse ships that hardly anyone has heard of. They were made by Kimura in the '70s, in Japan.

These were wonderful little kits, usually with spans around 36". They always showed, of course, either an Enya or OS 15 in the plans. It makes sense to substitute some of the wood in these kits, given the mystery plywood for fuse sides, for instance. The ribs already were cut out and sorted for you, too. They show up once in a blue moon on ebay.

Also in the sorta stunt mode were the Japanese Pilot kits. They were the Zero, Spitfire, Hien, etc, but they had decent, symettrical, reasonable thick airfoils.

Also, don't forget the intermediate Veco/Dumas/Aero Engineering kits, such as the Warrior, Brave, Squaw, and Papoose. They recommended a (surprise) Veco .19, which means that a modern Asian Rim ABC 15 Schneurle (like an OS FP) would work on some of these.

Some other full fuse intermediates...

All American

Ambird Special

Daze (Berkeley)

Zilch Mark 30

Maybe a Sterling Ringmaster Sportster

Fox Stunt Runt

Naming 15 is not a problem.

>Dennis: There are an entire series of 15 sized, full fuse
>ships that hardly anyone has heard of. They were made by
>Kimura in the '70s, in Japan.
>
>These were wonderful little kits, usually with spans around
>36". They always showed, of course, either an Enya or OS 15
>in the plans. It makes sense to substitute some of the wood
>in these kits, given the mystery plywood for fuse sides, for
>instance. The ribs already were cut out and sorted for you,
>too. They show up once in a blue moon on ebay.
>
>Also in the sorta stunt mode were the Japanese Pilot kits.
>They were the Zero, Spitfire, Hien, etc, but they had
>decent, symettrical, reasonable thick airfoils.
>
>Also, don't forget the intermediate Veco/Dumas/Aero
>Engineering kits, such as the Warrior, Brave, Squaw, and
>Papoose. They recommended a (surprise) Veco .19, which means
>that a modern Asian Rim ABC 15 Schneurle (like an OS FP)
>would work on some of these.
>
>Some other full fuse intermediates...
>
>All American
>
>Ambird Special
>
>Daze (Berkeley)
>
>Zilch Mark 30
>
>Maybe a Sterling Ringmaster Sportster
>
>Fox Stunt Runt
>
>
>Naming 15 is not a problem.
>
>Currell

Currell, I was hesitant to mention the Japanese kits because of the limited availability that they had here in the states. That said my premise still stands.
None of the kits that you mention are available and so cannot be considered as pertinent to todays needs.
Thats the problem with C/L today. Much of it's allure is it's past. While we older modellers were part of it, the newer members were not and do not share our enthusiasm for a lot of it.
I'd love it if John Brodak, or any manufacturer would come out with something that wasn't a rehash of something that we all did 40/50 years ago. At least it would give a sense of vibrancy to our part of the hobby. Since the origional post was for an 09 ship I'd certainly go along with that or a modern 15 sized plane. They are cheap to make. great for apartment dwellers to build, economical to operate, and have always had a huge 'fun'factor for me, the same as your enjoyment of the Scientific hollow logs.
I will also concede again that there have been some very nice new kits out by Walter umland,and Eric Rule, and Larry richards, Midwest and Veco kits, But the bulk of them are profile or designed for motors of a different era, and not suitable for motors with todays current power outputs.
We still need some nice intermediate full bodied, full stunt ships. Seems the British were really the masters of this size ship.They certainly had more plans and I think more kits. Tony Elmore can certainly prove or disprove that claim for me. Dennis