Team Racing

I hope to catch some TR action at the WC and want to get some homework done. TR pitman duties always drawn me in. In stunt, perfect flight is but 7 minutes away. To TR mechanic, perfection is but 7 seconds away: very intriguing stuff!

Ask Mr. Google!

Cy

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/clracing/?yguid=46053906

or:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/F2Cracing/?yguid=46053906

or:

http://www.nclra.org/

or:

http://www.plasma.kth.se/~olsson/cl.html

Tony

There is a small group of folks in the USA participating in F2C. Seems to be 6 to 8 teams (two members per team and no cross flying or pitting) competing at the team trials (well, the last 2). However, there are several times that many that fly the event but don't attend the trials for one reason or another.

It really depends on where you are. Florida and California have activity. If my travel schedule for work ever slows down, there will be at least one team in Colorado. More if I can generate some interest, even if they fly my models. There are some folks interested in the eastern part of Kansas.

While the numbers are small, the real problem is visibility. No one sees the event in the US except at the NATS.

You don't have to have the latest former eastern block equipment to get started. Several of the French flyers have put together web pages for the event. try:

http://www.cmbl.org/eng/cadreeng.htm and look under "Technical Parts" for information on building and flying both full up F2C and profile F2C.

Another good site is:

http://www.team-racing.net/ It uses a "flash" plugin and seems to get the best display using IE. After you have waded throught the obvious parts of the site, look along the bottom of the main page for "brainstorming". It is a short series of articles on model prep and flying by Chris Wee.

Wayne Trivin has both profile and full F2C model construction illustrated on his web site.

http://hometown.aol.com/nivirt/index.html

The profile event is also called STR for Simple Team Race or F2CN for F2C Nationale.

For several years F2C has been run at the Cabin Fever contest in Tucson AZ (the last weekend in March) and several of the top teams show up for the event.

Dave Rolley

Steven,

I too have always been interested in TR. The impression I have of the sport in the USA is that it is all but dead. There is a very small group (perhaps 50?) who devote themselves to the sport. The only FAI event I can think of that is less represented in the USA is F1E (magnet steered Free Flight Slope Soaring Gliders). There are probably no more than 10 F1E flyers in the US, and no contests. But Bob Sifleet was just crowned World Champion! By comparison, the hundred or so folks who compete at FAI Spacemodeling (rockets and rocket powered airplanes) is *huge*. I digress...

My impression is that there are only a couple of competitive airplane/engine setups and these must be purchased from the former Eastern Block (Czech IIRC). So according to me, you have a very small number of dedicated participants flying very expensive airplanes/engines, which they bought from overseas. Not a vibrant, active area of competition. Certainly not a growth industry!

As far as I know, only diesels are flown, due to the severely restricted fuel tank size. Glow engines cannot compete.

I would love to be told that my assessment of the sport is wrong and that it is more vibrant and active than I have indicated. If I am wrong, please set me straight.

My personal feeling is that the rules produce an event that is virtually un-flyable with modern performance levels. Just keeping three pilots airborne in the same circle with the very fast lap times attained with modern ships is an extreme challenge. The heats are dominated by crashes, collisions, and fouls.

All of this strikes me as too bad, because the event has a lot of appeal. The models are lovely, and racing is intrinsically a fun thing to do. But the FAI sport appears too demanding to be popular with anyone but the most dedicated competitors.

Oh yes, they don't use mufflers, so there is the flying site/noise issue. And they need really good paved circles to be able to take off and land. Very demanding little snookers...

The World Champs will provide a virtually unique opportunity to see these very rare birds fly in any significant numbers.

Just my $0.02,

Andy

Whoa, wait a minute, Andy. This is a very exciting event and we all know that availability of ARFs (or, in this case even RTFs) is the holy grail of growth in control line modeling. I'm sure if you look into it more closely you'll find hundreds of budding new team race flyers who got their new ARFs under the Christmas tree. Just wait'll the snow melts and they'll be everywhere.

Ted

Ted,

You are such a cynic.

It is, IMHO, unfortunate that the RTF world has overcome the event from a spectator appeal point of view (to say nothing of the modeling purist one). My first exposure to the world class version was in Sweden for the 1982 WCs. At that stage all the models were pretty much built by the competitors and there were distinctly different types. Nowadays you'll be lucky to find enough difference in color to tell the difference while they blaze around the circle.

Nonetheless, probably the premier spectator event in all of modeling. The cage in both Sweden and in Shanghai was crowded with spectators anytime a heat was in progress. I expect you'll see the same thing in Muncie.

Now here's a idea: Use Brodak Baby Clown ARFs for Clown Racing at Brodak's this year!

I have no idea how that came into my head. Is there such a thing as Adult ADD?

There is a small movement in the US to revive the old AMA Team Race event. Originally, some wanted it restricted to only the old airplanes, but now new designs and materials are permitted.
Personnally there is an old AMA TR that I am planning to build, probably using a modern .25 instead of an old .29. I'll bet that there are some more stunt fliers around that would build an AMA Team Racer also.

One of the neatest things about this event is that they LOOK LIKE AIRPLANES. The new "Great Lakes Stunter" kit, that we now working on at Blue Sky Models, is actually based on the looks of the old "Good News" AMA team racer!

The attached "Good News" was built by George Ehnot, Ohio. Thanks to Gary Tultz for the photo.

More info and rules are available from the National Controline Racing Association www.nclra.org

Equipment, engines (and especially) fuel ingredients were and are expensive and hard-to-find. Finicky, twinchy engine settings; even the fuel tank angle in the fuselage was critical. Rules that made many grown(?) men weep.

But, Oh God! When you achieved the magic settings, and got that one special flight, you could walk on air! Sometimes for 15 minutes, or until the next heat.

F2C isn't dead in the US, but it isn't on every street corner either, -you guys are fielding a strong team at Muncie, including one powered by a competitive US made engine.

The best engines are Russian or Ukrainian, because they have the experience and the materials, but it is by no means dominated by RTF's, in fact the top teams (French for example)usually make their own gear, including engines sometimes.

The reason the models look pretty similar, is that they are well optimised within the rules - intelligent minds converge on similar concepts - like it is hard to pick a Boeing from an Airbus - optimim solution to the problem.

The demands on pilot fitness in F2C are very high with the current level of performance available - younger pilots have a distinct advantage, though there is plenty of grey hair there too. But remember this is formula one, not formula Vee, it isn't supposed to be easy, or for everyone.

You are right, though - the F2C final at a w/champs is possibly the most exciting spectacle in c/l competition - even if the models don't have 20 coats of hand rubbed dope and garish colour schemes. In F2c light is right, no compromises.

Yes Ted, I do fly the class, so does my son, but for different teams.

Steven, if it is any help and you are interested in the models, find the Aussie team at Muncie, we will be very pleased to give you a close up look at the hardware and explain all the subtle stuff. Heck, we will always need people with a stopwatch for practice!

I think Ted has quite a good grasp on the situation - maybe because he actually lives here. I would wager that FAI T/R is among the most obscure and has the lowest participation of any model aircraft competition event in America, including indoor F/F and RTP.

There are competitive teams but not very many. And it certainly not because it's too demanding or some "many are called but few are chosen" ideal to which people can only strive!

Ted used Steves genuine enquiry to start off on his soapbox about RTF's, wasn't called for.

Moral is: if y'dont fly the event - dont bag it.

I would wager that more people flew an RTP flight in the Aaroone Cup* last year than flew a competitive FAI T/R model all year long. The guys who do fly FAI T/R in the US are fine modelers and I am sure they will be able to be competitive.

But there's no debate that there are very, very few of them compared to almost every other modeling event I know of (which is quite a few). I would guess there are fewer than 10 teams (and maybe less than 5) that fly togther on a regular basis. In a country of ~300 million people.

If it's not dead here, it's in the intensive care ward and someone is calling for a priest. So you are simply wrong on the facts.

>Ted used Steves genuine enquiry to start off on his soapbox
>about RTF's, wasn't called for.
>
>Moral is: if y'dont fly the event - dont bag it.

Better moral - don't tell people in other countries what's happing in their own backyards.

And, who is bagging it? He said it was exciting. It seemed like it might be to me, also. The airplanes and engines are mighty impressive in a technical sense, and they are respectably fast given the limitations. The pit stops are impressive as well, when they go right. Ted and I even talked about flying it (although there would probably be some conflict over who flew and who pitted - Ted probably has better flying skills, but I'm bigger and thus might be able to fight it out in the center of the circle)

But he also quite accurately pegged a very big factor problem that's making the event nearly dead in the US - << forbidden topic deleted>>. Argue all you want, that's a huge part of the problem; no matter how neat the event might be, it's darn near dead due in no small part to <<forbidden topic deleted>>.

The answer to Steve's question is simple enough - call Bill Lee (one of the few people left who actually still build their own models) and he can set him up. Or call up whatever former Iron Curtain supplier has them for sale in a classic "how fast can you afford to go?" situation.

Brett

* Aaroone Cup is an annual RTP event held in Truckee, CA. I think there were around 20 entries last year.

I'm not presumptious enough to tell anyone what to do in their own backyard - but I dont think that Ted has been an upper eschelon competitor in FAI TR for 40+ years, otherwise I'm sure that Stockton/Jehlik would not have won a couple of world titles.

We are talking about an international event here, the US F2c guys are world class and I dont think that belittling their event, just because it doesn't coincide with yours and Teds view of what modelling should be, is fair. Spectacle comments aside, get some facts, sure some people use RTF's but the top guys don't and learning to use any model/engine is most of the battle, RTF's are the most difficult to use.

As for parrallel universes, mine extends beyond the coast of California. Come to think about it, maybe they aren't so parrallel after all.

Why don't we just try to give Steve the best answer possible? I've contributed an offer..... Read Dave Rolley's post , it is authoritative.

Dave

I don't see anyone belittling the event - everyone agrees that it's a great spectator event, and when there are a lot of capable participants, everything is great. All the T/R participants I know or know of (Bill Lee, and the Aschers) are fine modelers with high skill levels and have everyone's respect for what they do.

But to suggest that it's a popular or even well-known event in the US is simply incorrect.

Ted's point, once you see it (and I think that the point is obvious) is perfectly valid and factually accurate. Getting rid of the <<forbidden topic>> certainly *at best* had no impact on T/R participation, and at worst was a large element of why it's not a vibrant, growing event in the US. I know for a fact, from personal knowledge, that it's keeping at least some people out of what would otherwise be in interesting event. I'm sorry if that isn't what you want it to be, but as far as I can tell it's exactly what it is.

No one is denigrating anyone else's event. But I think there is a valid point to be made about the effects of <<forbidden topic>>. Obviously some people don't want to hear and discuss it as a point, but to interpret this as an attack on the event itself is rather parochial.

Brett

Brett

Dave is a racer from way back and an OK competitor in F2B.

I talk to people around the world who are disappointed by the stand of the US PA guys on BOM for just this one occasion—the Worlds and the US Nats at Muncie this year. In fact, one Aussie champ may not make the journey for that reason alone.

Also, I am sure glad that I have not been holding my breath waiting for a response—just a response, intelligent, reasoned or otherwise—to Dixon's remarks on the topic in the last Stunt News.

I hope to make it for the two weeks in August but only as a spectator—my son and I are far from the required standard—but I am working toward the trip and it may happen.

Regards, Geoff

A survey was taken on the topic after the 2002 NATs (no doubt the result of the hyper-intense lobbying by Dixon and those of a like mind), asking the competitors how they wanted to proceed on this topic. The result was quite definitively to keep the same rules.

We at least allow non-citzens to enter and possibly win the U.S. National Championship. Plenty of FAI member countries would not reciprocate. I don't think it's asking too much to expect those who want to take a shot at the most coveted trophy in the event - including the W/C - to follow the same rules as everyone preceding them has. Watering it down by greatly reducing the skill and commitment required to win the event does not honor the tradition of the US Nationals.

We should pick the US National Champion using the US National Rules. I can't see how that is hard to understand.

Additionally, we are putting on a contest the very week before (at great impact to the Nationals) that *allows* people to fly anything they want, no matter how they acquired it. Is it necessary to do two to them back-to-back?

One additional detail note - if a foreign competitor should win the Nationals, they WILL NOT be allowed to take the perpetual Walker Trophy home with them. The Trophy will stay at the AMA Museum.

Mr. Dixon's letter to SN is another matter entirely. He and a very few others prompted the initial poll. The issue had long been decided long before he wrote the letter to SN. He just didn't care to abide by the results, and thus tried to bypass the NATs Planning Committee and AMA and appeal directly to the membership. This is a closed issue, the NATs will proceed as always, and lobbying will not change it.

The idea that foreign competitors might lie about BOM simply to enter is not a good argument in favor of changing the rules. Nobody will be "forced to lie" - they would "choose to lie" to be able to enter a contest they are not otherwise qualified to enter. I would expect that foreigners are no less honest or honorable than US modelers, so I don't think it will be a problem.

However, if someone does fly a known RTF model, I can assure you that there will be a protest filed before the end of appearance judging. This is a proper and honorable response to an incident of cheating and will result in a proper result - disqualification.

As an AMA member and U.S. citizen who values the purpose and tradition of the U.S. Nationals, I feel that I have a valid opinion and am entitled to have it honored. I have stated that opinion and the valid reasons behind it three times on this forum. That opinion directly addresses Mr. Dixon's stand. It is available through SSWF archival search.

Since neither he nor any other advocate of reducing the standards met by all previous champions of the U.S. Nationals (and violating the AMA mission statement) has ever addressed my points, I have no interest in repeatedly answering the same arguments. I can understand the reluctance of authors of previous eloquent counter-arguments to address Mr. Dixon's late end run. It's already been decided, and for good reasons.

Brett Buck's response on this issue is right on target. The U.S. CLPA Nationals event IS what it IS. It is not a plaything to be compromised to suit whims of potential participants unwilling to continue the standards of its champions. It welcomes all who wish to meet its standards, but anyone seeking another kind of event can and should look elsewhere. So, if like me, someone passes because he/she does not aspire to these standards, I don't give a #####. Mr. Dixon's letter deserved the silence with which it was met.

SK

P.S. Well, I see that I've been censored for the first time. I should note that the offending word had four letters and concerned the disposition of souls who run too far afoul of certain religious doctrines.

Serge,

As usual, d ... oops, very well said.

Oh for Pete's sake guys. Can't anyone take a joke! What the heck do you think all the smiley faces were for. Why did I preface my second post with the phrase "All kidding aside". Come on guys, lighten up!

The BOM, ARF, RTF thing isn't going to go away and we can either discuss it with snarls and insults or we can take a broader outlook and let a little humor surface between (hopefully) legitimate and tasteful serious discussions on the subject.

My posts were an attempt (smilies and all) to address one of the purported benefits of buy and fly with just enough reality to the proposition to make it thoughtful as well. It is true that you can buy the equipment to make you potentially competitive at the highest level in FAI TeamRace. It is entirely true that getting the equipment is only half (or, maybe less) of the battle but that still makes it that 50% (or maybe, less) less demanding than not only learning the skills from scratch but also making the equipment that allows one to be so.

This is not unlike the ongoing discussion relative to the US Rules in stunt regarding BOM, ARFs, participation and competitiveness at the highest level. In today's world a couple of thousand bucks in place of thousands of hours of trial and error and learning and unlearning and all the other things involved in making the ultimate machine for a given endeavor is a pretty fair exchange...if competitiveness is your only goal.

Guys, let's not get our panties all in a bunch every time there is a passing reference to this issue. Like so much of what passes for political correctness in the states nowadays, we have made it almost impossible to address serious cultural issues because as soon as you bring up a sensitive subject the opposition pillories you for having the temerity to have an opposing point of view, mostly in the form of ad hominem attacks regarding genes and so forth.

I said a whole bunch of very nice things about FAI Team Race (all of which were sincere and truthful). I included a factual reference to the availability of over the counter ready to fly machines which have an impact on the event at the highest levels. (If this is not true or no longer true, by the way, I am, of course, in error and should be so advised so that I can render an apology. To the best of my knowledge, however, ARF/RTF FAI team racers are still available. Let me know if I'm wrong.)Because I referred to this factual reality I have been accused of "bagging" a fine and competitive modeler and the current conflagration ensued. Nothing could be further from the truth.

What I said was, from a spectator's point of view (and I think I'm as "expert" at spectating as the next guy), with the advent of single type, largely balsa and clear coat airplanes similar to or actual production copies of those available commercially, the event has lost a particular and special (from my point of view) part of its spectator appeal.

Now, Dave and all are perfectly free to disagree and argue why they think that is so but, from a spectators point of view, their opinions are no more ... and perhaps less ... germane than my own simply because their spectator's opinion is clouded by their personal devotions and love for the event.

Finally, I clearly went on to say TR nonetheless has the most spectator appeal of any event you'll see at the WCs. Coming from a guy who has devoted most of his life to the pursuit of perfection in another event in which I will be competing a few hundred yards away, this seems like a pretty nice recognition of TR even with the (as I see them) warts. Be nice if some people could take a compliment but, again, with the sensitivity and PC issues involved, that degree of introspection doesn't seem to be part of the equation.

I bemoan the loss of our ability to engage in rational discourse on issues of meaning.

Hey! Don't confuse us with the facts!

Since I'm the "butt" of this one (no rare thing for me ), I would just like to point out that one can buy an ARF Flite Streak and a decent engine (please, no LA bashing in this thread) for $130. The price tags I've heard for TR airplane/engine combinations are in the $1000--$2000 range to buy a state-of-the-art setup ready to fly. And if there were a sudden surge of interest, I doubt the world's capacity for producing TR hardware is more than a few hundred units a year, nowhere near a single container load. They are all hand built by a small number of experts, not mass produced in a Chinese factory.

My point is simply that the comparison between a world class ready-built TR setup and an ARF sport model is apples-to-oranges. They really have very little in common. Yes, they are both control line model airplanes. And yes, they can both be obtained by writing a check. But that is where the similarity ends, IMHO.

It *is* a wicked exiting event. If I go to the World Champs to watch, it will be for the once-in-a-lifetime chance to see this event.

As for "less painful" alternatives draining participation, Nostalgia Free Flight teaches that lesson well. The vast majority of gas flyers gravitated to the simple non-automated Nostalgia events when they became available. AMA gas participation dropped way off. So much so that new, "Classic Power" had to be invented. Basically AMA gas without auto surfaces. Participation looks good. Then there is AMA Free Flight scale, which is a dead event. Why? Because the rules make the event a *pain* to build, fly, and judge. Enter Flying Aces Club (FAC) rules which fixed the problems, and behold the huge increase in participation. The FAC "movement" is one of the most vibrant and active communities in Free Flight today. Moral: if rules make an event too unpleasent, demanding, or expensive to fly, people will not fly it. Most flyers do not want to suffer to "enjoy" their "hobby". Most folks don't want their hobby to be a second job. There will always be a few who want to compete at the absolute cutting edge, and more power to them. But even among "serious" competitors, there are limits to what people are willing to do/spend.

Happy New Year to All!

Andy

I had no idea there was such a thing, until I came across mention of it in some magazine some years ago.

>My impression is that there are only a couple of competitive
>airplane/engine setups and these must be purchased from the
>former Eastern Block (Czech IIRC). So according to me, you
>have a very small number of dedicated participants flying
>very expensive airplanes/engines, which they bought from
>overseas. Not a vibrant, active area of competition.
>Certainly not a growth industry!

On the other hand, this does make getting into the sport a little easier. You'd have to be a machinist otherwise (since none of the commercially available sport engines are suitable). Once you've got the gear, though, you need to do a lot (I do mean a lot) of practice and fiddling with the equipment to become competitive.

Interestingly enough, the Singaporeans have gotten into F2C in a big way. Got a bunch of pictures of their efforts.

While the FAI PA pattern has some differences in the approach taken with some of the manuevers and judging, at least the same model most folks fly is usable. With F2A, F2C, and F2D the equipment, how it is operated , and how the event is run (managed and judged) is very different than how things are done at a typical AMA contest. All of which contributes to the lower participation in the US compared to the AMA or local events.

There are 2 or 3 pockets of F2C activity around the country. In many cases there are are folks like me that live outside these pockets and can't find a partner willing to share the expense, pain and the joy of the event, much less another team or two to fly with. One advantage of these online modeling groups is identifying folks (and where they are) that might be interested in these somewhat obscure events.

While I'm not on the team or even close to it, my son and I interested enough to go to the team trials and other contests that offer the event (NATS, Cabin Fever) in an attempt to learn about it. We are up to the point that we need to actually get equipment out on the circle. Luckily I have some decent equipment and if I can find the time, we'll do just that this year.

If you want to contact me, either here or off group at mailto:[email protected] I'll try to help you find equipment and also help you get in contact with someone nearer to your location than I'm likely to be.

have a good one.

ARF and RTF TR models have not hurt the event in the U.S.; in fact, it might not exist at all in this country were it not for the ready availability of pretty decent equipment with which to get started and/or refine into one's own personal setup.

The rules package is *precisely* where the problem lies when it comes to Team Race. And F1C. And F1B. And some other events. Up to an including Formula 1 motorsport, just to drag Dave into the discussion.

There are a great many reasons for solid participation in TR in the ex-Soviet Bloc countries--lack of other state-funded and -supported CL racing events is one, success being one of the few ways to get out of Dodge for a couple weeks was another when communism ruled--so many that I think it pointless to continue.

It comes down to nearly all U.S. CL racers voting with their feet after looking at the rules package, the amount of time and effort just to put up a successful test flight, let alone be competitive with those whose entire CL career has been spent doing nothing but TR; Dave is right, TR is not a casual event in which one can dabble off to the side. Not if Total World Domination is the goal.

Ted, you seem to have a minor chip on your shoulder over the ARFs and delight in pointing to AMA Combat--and now U.S.-based TR--as "proof" of your theory that damage to "our" event will ensue.

You are wrong about this, in the countries from which these model are imported, use of ARFs and RTFs has been a fact of life for many, many years. One of the more well known people I have been known to hang around with while in St. Petersburg, Russia, is Slava Beliaev, kick-ass F2D flier. Many years he began the season with 100 models, about half of which were for use in matches with his sparring partner. He didn't build any of the models, although for W/Cs use may have done so; I don't know and didn't ask.

Iskandar, at one point in time I was funneling some pretty serious TR stuff into Singapore, although at this time I cannot remember the names of my two contacts. One was a pro jockey, evidently of star quality at the time. Should you make contact, a cheery Hello! from me would be appreciated.

Ooops, late addition: The name Martin Sng comes to mind. Is this correct?

But, to pull this back somewhat towards Steve's original question...

You have several sources of info for a couple of evenings worth of reading. If you decide you want more info or to try the event, contact me or the folks on the discussion groups mentioned. We will get you going. It ain't cheap, but it is fun. Even if you don't go to the WC as a team member.

>At best your personal knowledge is merely anecdotal and in
>no way proves your point, nor that of Ted.
>
>First off, I don't believe these folk professing an interest
>in Team Race are actually serious about it. Because if they
>are, the best and *least expensive* way to get started in
>this event is to buy a couple complete RTF TR models from
>any of several sources and then simply to go wear 'em out.
>
>Or they could begin with re-inventing the wheel, progressing
>through all the many steps and technologies required to be
>competitive at whatever level they choose. I submit to you
>that in both time and dollars such an approach would easily
>be substantially more expensive than glomming all the latest
>tricks (or at least most of them) via RTF models.

That's almost certainly true, which is the crux of the problem as near as I can tell. My interests in modeling don't necessarily lead me to find the cheapest and/or least effort path to any end. I find actually doing *all the steps* to be a far more worthwhile and rewarding endeavor. Getting a trophy the quickest way possible is not why I am involved in modeling. This is the missing factor in the <<forbidden topic>> debate. I (and many others) think the events where you do it yourself are superior and are more appealing to those that are easier and more accessible.

Buy-and-fly T/R seems like 20% of a great event. I know a lot of people think otherwise, but I'm entitled to my opinion, and I know for a fact that there are a lot of people who agree. Sorry if that skewers the sacred cow, but that's the way it is for me and many others.

I note that my "anecdotal" stories of modelers who would be potential T/R participants exceed the number of people who flew in the latest team trials by a factor of 3. These people are serious - but not about getting some half-assed trophy as quickly and with as little effort as possible.

Excellence is a journey, not a destination.

Gotta be fair here. Reread my posts and see if there is any reference to the RTFs "hurting" the event in this country. The intent of my (smilie encrusted)post was that, nothwithstanding the availability of RTFs, FAI TR doesn't have a large following in the US.

Gotta admit, though, I haven't counted heads.

Am I simply wrong?

It doesn't have to be $2000 to get you going. Take a look at Jim Holland's experience:

http://controllineracingwest.com/Profi2001TR.html

The performance on that equipment is very good. Maybe even good enough to get you on the team of you and your pilot are good enough.

Zalp used to have a starter setup that was ARF for around $500 complete with engine and tank. Not as fast as the Profi setup that Jim had but fast enough to prepare you for the fast stuff. They still might have such a thing but their web site dropped off the face of the web. It would take some phone calls to find out.

Tomas Mejzlik has a pretty good selection of equipment available.

http://mejzlikmodellbau.inshop.cz/inshop/

Jim Booker has been bringing in Profi equipment for the F2A folks. He seems willing to bring in F2C equipment as well. Right now it looks like Profi is working on a new F2C engine and may have something usable for the 2004 season. Jim may also have some contact with Mazniak for some of that equipment. But a complete Mazniak equipment setup will probably be on the higher side of $1000.

http://www.cedarcomm.com/~fly/

Racing is more than having the fastest model. It is having the fastest heat(s) or race(s) on a given day. Even though you can buy the best equipment, you won't be in the money without a lot of practice.

I was already an experienced pitman when we started messing with F2C. I already knew something about diesels. I had to learn a different way to pit and a different way to listen to the diesel so I could tell what it is doing.

My son was an experienced pilot when we started. He found he had to unlearn some behaviors that are accepted in AMA competition. You should have seen the look on his face when we put him on a "pretty fast" model. It was only doing 19.2 seconds for 10 laps on basically 52 feet lines. Just under 120 mph. Since the model was a portly 400 grams (about 13 oz?) it took the model about 1/4 lap to get up to speed.

Top notch equipment will run 17.8 seconds in 10 laps (or faster) and the models weigh less than 350 grams. A full 100 lap heat can be as fast as 3:10 (roughly the current record) out to about 3:45. That is with 2 pit stops. So 178 seconds for the model in the air plus 12 seconds for the start and 2 pit stops. In traffic with two other pilots. Like several folks have said, it is breath taking to watch a good three up race.

The pitman can be an old foggy. The pilot better be young and in good physical condition.

The current group of folks on the US team represent many years of experience and a mixture of purchased equipment and homemade equipment. No one is flying a turn key system they bought. They all have a great deal of time, money, and effort invested. One team basically built their own engine. They started with a crankcase and shaft and built almost everything else. However, the available RTF and ARF equipment means you and I don't have to suffer quite so bad to get started. But to get to the top... that is a completely different issue.

New England doesn't narrow things down too much. There are folks in New Jersey that are flying F2C. At least one and perhaps 2 teams.

If the full out F2C seems like too big of a step, start simple with a profile F2C. The rules are on the NCLRA site and Melvin Schuette of MBS Model Supply has some of the kits for sale. I don't think they are listed in his price list, but get a copy of it and give him a call. Henry Nelson made a special run of iron/steel piston and liner diesel engines special for the event. I think he was charging around $240 for the engine. That would put about a $350 dent in your wallet to get the model together. Red Max will blend the fuel for you so all you need is the squash bottle for refueling (STR doesn't permit multifunction valves and pressure refuelers), some APC propellors, and a pilot!

Melvin's price sheet:

http://home.att.net/~mbschuette/order_form.doc

BTW, check the NATS schedule on the NCLRA web site, I think F2CN (profile F2C) has been added as an unofficial event.

Come on out and play!

Have a good one,