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Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite Streak

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xain · Jan 08, 2004 10:15 AM

#0 source
Hi All,

I've been pondering this since my last flight in the summer, and now that I have the wing re-attached (thanks for the hints guys, seems like a solid fix) I'm considering the issue again.

Basically, I got fantastic flights out of my Streak (~23 oz with Fox) when it was in a rich 2 stroke. However, when I tried to 4-2-4, it was so rich that it limped around the circle. It would occasionally break into a 2 when going upwards, but it was so slow that I didn't feel at all comfortable putting it into a climb.

The other issue was that I had to run it *seriously* rich on the ground so that when it leaned out in flight I still had a 4 stroke run. This was so bad that I wasn't convinced it would take off. Maybe I've grown too used to planes leaping off the ground though. Should I expect a bit of a take-off run? I know the pattern calls for one...

Any ideas what might be wrong? BTW the tank is uniflow (homebrew)
Thanks!
Jon

elmores · Jan 08, 2004 10:31 AM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#1 source
LAST EDITED ON Jan-08-04 AT 10:33 AM (CDT)
 
Welcome back Jon - you've been away a while.

How's the baby going?

Maybe see you somewhere this season?

Irvin I are thinking of a Sunday session at Croydon in March!

Tony

xain · Jan 08, 2004 11:48 AM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#7 source
Hi Tony,

baby Benjamin is doing great, he's so cute! I should post a picture really. Anyway, Benjamin has told me how much he'd really like to get into control line, and he needs a flapped stunter to begin with, but mum doesn't believe me

I'll keep Croydon in mind, it's very close by.

Jon

Jim T. · Jan 08, 2004 10:31 AM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#2 source
Run your Fox in a rich 2-stroke and have fun. A flitestreak is not happy just bumbling around the circle.

Currell · Jan 08, 2004 11:01 AM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#3 source
Your needled 4-2-4 setting overemphasized the 4, at the expense of the 2.

Either be happy with a Rich 2, or try to split the difference between your present weak 4-2-4 and the Rich 2. Lean it a click or two.

As a general observation, most any 4-2-4 setup on a Fox Stunt 29 or 35 should be more than ample on a Streak, so this is a mystery of sorts.

Currell

Steve Fitton · Jan 08, 2004 11:11 AM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#4 source
What kind of prop were you running on this sluggish Streak????

xain · Jan 09, 2004 02:57 AM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#28 source
Wow, I can't believe the number of replies so fast!

Okay, the prop *was* a wooden (BYO?) 10x6, which I thought was the right combo.

Jon

Alan Hahn · Jan 08, 2004 11:12 AM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#5 source
LAST EDITED ON Jan-08-04 AT 12:34 PM (CDT)
 
I am NOT a Fox 35 expert, and indeed have a similar problem as you. I have an old-time plane which needs to fly faster than the 4-2-4 Fox35 wants to pull it (even running near the break). I think the answer is to drop from a 10-6 Top Flite Prop to a 9-6 Top Flite (for example). The lower loading will presumably allow the Fox to 4 stroke at a higher rpm, and I hope let the plane fly at higher airspeed.

I haven't had a chance to try this out since last fall, so if anyone else thinks this is the right or wrong approach, let me know.

Alan

JetJock · Jan 08, 2004 08:24 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#25 source
FS flies great with Fox 35, APC 9-7...noticably more line tension than with a 9-6.

Steve C · Jan 08, 2004 11:42 AM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#6 source
Jon,
Tell us what type of fuel/Prop you are running. Also are you using a stock factory muffler or a aftermarket Tongue muffler.The stock muffler is to heavy an restrictive which will cause some loss of power. You said that she is leaning out when she's in the air and that might be caused by your fuel foaming. Are you using a piece of foam between the tank an the body to help with vibration, we all know about the FOX "SHAKE".
Steve C.

linnix · Jan 08, 2004 12:21 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#8 source
I will start by saying I am no expert at any phase of this hobby..but I tried to run a Fox on a arf flite streak and had absolutely no luck. My engine was box stock..I think I had an APC prop, 10-5. I was unable to get anything but a dead rich 4 cycle out of it. I'd lean it into a 2 cycle on the ground and as soon as it was in the air it would go dead rich,so slow that it would barely stay in the air. I checked every thing I could think of ..tank was solidly monuted, checked fuel line for leaks, needle valve orientation, backplate secure etc...I attempted at least half a dozen times on different days each time same result. Another interesting thing about it was that even with the extremely rich run the engine would get very hot. I thought it wasn't broken in enough and took it off and ran it on the bench for several additional tanks of fuel..ran it rich seemed to do just fine...put it back on the flite streak and same thing. Lean on ground and dead rich in the air. I gave up and bought a OS 25 LA of course it flies great. I figured that the fox vibration had something to do with its problems on the nose of the lightly built fuselage...the fuel might have been foaming but why it would go rich but seem to run hot I never could understand.

Lynn

Ty Marcucci · Jan 08, 2004 12:28 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#9 source
Foaming fuel will cause it to go lean, not rich. What prop were you running? Where was the fuel tank outlet in relation to the needle valve? Are you sure it didn't go real lean and sag. That can sound like an engine running slow and rich. Most Fox engines go lean on launch, not rich, unless the tank is set wrong. Were you running pressure? What % of nitro and % of castor oil did your fuel have? This is an OLD engine as to design and needs to be fuel accordingly.

Alan Hahn · Jan 08, 2004 12:31 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#10 source
Lynn,

I'll hazard a guess that your Fox actually was running way too lean, and beginning to sag. I say this because you say the engine was very hot at the end. If it were really rich, it would be still be hot to the touch, but not smoking hot --if that's what you mean by very hot.

Alan

Currell · Jan 08, 2004 12:32 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#11 source
Once again...there is no greater classic (small "c") setup than a Streak/Fox Stunt/10-6/4-2-4 run.

Hundreds of thousands have been successfully run with this combo.

At least 4, from your Hmb & Obdt Servant here...

Currell

Alan Hahn · Jan 08, 2004 12:36 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#14 source
Currell,

Are you really sure about those "hundreds of thousands..." ?

Alan

Elwyn · Jan 12, 2004 06:48 AM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#35 source
I've ran a Fox 35 on lots of profiles with no problem. There has been the occasional profile however that just didn't want to work with this set up.

Currell · Jan 08, 2004 12:35 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#13 source
I checked every thing I could think of ..tank was solidly mounted...

Lynn

I just noticed this in your post.

A solid tank mount is what you want to avoid, and could be a (if not the) source of your difficulties.

Currell

xain · Jan 09, 2004 02:59 AM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#29 source
Hi Steve,

the prop is a wood 10x6, I'm not running a muffler if I remember correctly, and I hadn't thought of using foam. I need to rebuild the tank anyway, so I'll add some foam behind it.

The tank was ripped open in the crash.

Ty Marcucci · Jan 08, 2004 12:35 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#12 source
LAST EDITED ON Jan-08-04 AT 12:36 PM (CDT)
 
Tank placement can and will have a great deal to do with the 4-2-4 on a Fox mounted sideways on a profile. Run a 10 X 5 prop and move the tank up or down a 1/16" at a time until you get the run you want. Make sure the prop is balanced or at least put the heavy end down with the piston at the TDC position. Foam rubber between the tank and fuselage will help some of any foaming you may be having as well as a drop or two of Amour All in a full gallon of fuel. Run 5% or 10% nitro if you can. 28% castor. No nitro will affect the 4-2-4 run also. Beg, borrow or steal a tach and note the rpms at each launch. Once you find the best launch rpms, always go with that setting, being aware that the ambient air/humidity will affect a run, but only a minor settings worth. Last Question, is this engine truly broken in?? Keep the lines tight, Ty:)

linnix · Jan 08, 2004 01:21 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#15 source
I was using sig fuel 5% nitro and 25% caster...I did try foam behind the tank...I will admit that I may have been fooled by thinking it was rich ...I've set my engines lean before and could hear them sag a little and of course worry the whole time that it flew..but if this was a lean "sag" I probably ruined the thing. I didn't think an engine could get that lean and still run...I'm talking barely pulling a very light flite streak. IN the initial flights I did set the needle rich expecting a good 4-2-4 breaking run but the same thing happened on those flights too..it "appeared" to me to go very rich and thats when I started to experiment...getting leaner with each launch in the attempt to get a decent flight..which by the way I never did. Like I said..I'm very much a retread, I flew many happy flights years ago with Fox 35s on all sorts of profiles..including the Top Flite FliteStreak..Ringmasters, etc..I never remember experiencing anything like this before. My tank by the way was mounted slightly above the centerline of the engine..I think I experimented with its position also... this occured early this year..I put the thing away in fustration and just recently put the OS engine on it. Anyway I do not doubt that it was getting too lean I just didn't recognise that at the time..It fooled me..which by the way isn't that hard to do:7

Lynn

N42222 · Jan 08, 2004 01:45 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#16 source
Excuse me for butting in- but it seems as though you are running a very new Fox. It may need an hour- or more- of breaking in-the iron piston method. Rich 4 stroke and pinch the fuel line occasionaly to break into a 2 stroke and back. Lots of info available on breaking in a Fox. Good luck,

dirtydan · Jan 08, 2004 01:45 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#17 source
Until you try a GRW chicken-hopper tank, few of us will be convinced your problems are anything but tank-related.

Even a thrashed Fox 35 ought easily pull an ARF Flite Streak through the entire pattern without ever breaking into a two-stroke.

Dan

Phil Hawkins · Jan 08, 2004 02:01 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#18 source
LAST EDITED ON Jan-08-04 AT 02:03 PM (CDT)
 
Hey Dan or anyone,

Would you happen to have a part number for that GRW chicken hopper tank? I will be needing one for a Ringmaster... Also how many oz. is recommended?

Phil Hawkins

dirtydan · Jan 08, 2004 02:13 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#20 source
>Hey Dan or anyone,
>
>Would you happen to have a part number for that GRW chicken
>hopper tank? I will be needing one for a Ringmaster... Also
>how many oz. is recommended?

SIG catalog has part numbers, although anyone stocking such an item ought know how they have it listed.

While I am using 3.25-ounce GRW chicken-hopper tanks on my ARF Flite Streaks (only 2.25 inches long, take that you whiners complaining about lack of room for the tank), a Fox pretty much always requires 4 ounces. Up here in the NW I cheat by installing 4 1/2- to 4 3/4-ounce tanks behind Fox 35s, as there are times when four ounces is not quite enough. (Low altitude, lots of oxygen from the trees, rarely real hot.)

Come to think of it, doesn't GRW offer a 4.25-ounce chicken hopper? Oh man, I'm losing it! Of course they do, I gifted one to Heavy Stunt for his profile Cardinal.

And I got it from SIG...

Dan

Ty Marcucci · Jan 08, 2004 03:40 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#23 source
LAST EDITED ON Jan-08-04 AT 03:41 PM (CDT)
 
Page 65 of the current Brodaks catalog, #12-A, lists them by size,ie;GRW Chicken Hopper Tank, 3-1/4 oz; 3-3/4 oz; 4-1/4 oz; 5-1/8 oz; 5 3/4 oz. $15.50 each. My SIG catalog does not show any chicken hopper tanks.

linnix · Jan 08, 2004 02:06 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#19 source
I hope I did not sound argumentative...on the contrary I was adding more observations as I remembered them. I do now admit in hindsight that maybe the engine wasn't totally broken in and heaven only knows what other mistakes I might have made in tank selection and mounting .. ..I just thought that my situation was similar to the original post here and thought I'd mention what occurred with me. Thanks for the input...I'm not sure where the fox will go next..I'm thinking a Stills Stuka or maybe a Jamison Special!

Lynn

Currell · Jan 08, 2004 02:34 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#21 source
Lynn: You didn't hurt your Fox with a lean run, if you are going with 25% castor.

Fox Stunts have survived far worse. Currell

dirtydan · Jan 08, 2004 03:26 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#22 source
>Lynn: You didn't hurt your Fox with a lean run, if you are
>going with 25% castor.
>
>Fox Stunts have survived far worse. Currell


That's a matter of opinion. And how closely one monitors the output of a Fox 35.

It has been my experience that it is possible to take a Fox 35, or any engine with like components in the piston or liner, completely out of the contest-capable category with just one bad run. Use of proper fuel makes it less likely, but not a certainty.

Or maybe it's a matter of definition, but simply surviving to run again is not the point if trying to maintain and campaign a Fox 35 used in competition.

Dan

Kiwi · Jan 08, 2004 05:54 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#24 source
>Lynn: You didn't hurt your Fox with a lean run, if you are going with 25%
>castor.
>

Yes, that would be true almost all of the time. It would normally be a rare old Fox that already either had problems, or was about to have some, that got pushed over that hill by a bad run. McCoy Red Heads seemingly took even longer than Foxes to be truly broken in and were far more sensitive to lean, hot runs. Many of those were ruined by a single bad run. (And I had one new GH 35 P&C set that I ruined that way when I had to use the rebuilt engine in a contest, without any breakin, in the late 1950's).

Fact is, when Foxes were at the peak of their popularity, few fliers were conscious of the oil requirements in the fuels. The average was 20% castor, by volume, but some mixes had less than that, with K&B 1000 and Missile Mist (both were in the 17-18% area) being among the ones that were more popular. I'm sure that quite a number of Foxes that were run too lean on fuels such as those were no longer usable for much beyond the occasional trot line sinker.

The few fliers who not only were aware that a lot of castor was really needed, and could also afford to buy Superfuel for other than breakin, could and did have engines survive terrible runs. Among the stories that George A. repeated quite often was one about a Fox that was pre- igniting, sagging, and after it finally ran out of fuel, smoking like crazy. After it seemed to have cooled to ambient temperature, it had no compression left.

A few days later, as he prepared to remove it from the plane to do an overhaul, the compression was back to normal. It had the worst baked on layer of burned castor he'd ever seen on any engine, but continued to run dependably for several more years until broken in a crash.
.

Kiwi

**

Jim T. · Jan 08, 2004 09:32 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#26 source
As I recall, in his Doctor article, Ted Fancher goes into why a 4-2-4 run is not optimum for flapless airplanes.

Tools · Jan 08, 2004 11:07 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#27 source
Ok totally new thing to consider here.

Have had EXACTLY the same problem, from what I can tell, and was told by Tom Dixon to just replace EVERYTHING behind the spinner. It was a Fox 35 on a war torn Banshee. Naturally, I was kinda put off. Well, turns out, he was pretty close to right. I had a broke engine mount that was COMPLETELY hidden. The hardwood engine mount was broke in half INSIDE the ply doublers, never saw it till I dissected the nose after I cut off the fuse in desparation. Engine felt tight, didn't SEEM to vibrate more than normal. Man, I tried EVERYTHING.

You mention having glued the wing back on. Did you crash this plane? Could be the same thing. Try the engine on another plane. Maybe put on a nose tripler and see if that helps. Better yet, put a tripler on the outside, and quadrupler plates over just the motor mounts on the inside and use longer bolts. This would crutch a broken mount, if that's the problem, and may work. Good luck.

Tools

Mike

xain · Jan 09, 2004 03:20 AM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too weAk for Flite St#31 source
Hi Mike,

the broken wing crash was the end of last year's flying season for me (oddly enough )

Up until that point I'd actually succeeded for the first time in not completely wrecking a model before I'd had a chance to fly it properly. This is a major step forward for me, and made the crash all the more irritating, as I wasn't even at the controls at the time (stooge failure, potentially v. nasty)

So I think the nose was in good shape. I have flown models where the nose hinged (looking back I can't believe this!) and even where one wing has hinged, not much, but 10 degrees or so... plenty!

This didn't seem to be that sort of problem. I like the smaller, higher pitch prop suggestion, so it's 4 stroking at a higher airspeed.
When the weather improves I'll take the newly rebuilt bird up again, and try these suggestions.

And Dan... I'll even invest in a GRW tank, and that goes against my religious principles (along with paying for parking )

To be honest, although I was rather proud of the job I did on my homebrew tank, it did develop leaks several times, so I lost confidence in it. Buying a known good tank would probably be a smart thing to do.

Do they all fit in the F/S nose?

xain · Jan 09, 2004 03:06 AM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#30 source
Hi Ty!

I'm using an R/C fuel which was 9% synthetic, 6% castor and 10% nitro, and adding castor in to make it up to 29% oil. I did the maths
very carefully and it was verified on this group sometime back, so I'm fairly happy with the fuel. When I shake the can vigourously it doesn't foam (but I haven't added any extras to it apart from the oil)

I ran a lot of fuel through it, following the cast iron run-in proceedure and it now starts and runs very sweetly, although I did comment a long while back that it seems to be very hot when it stops.

So I'm not sure how to tell if it's fully run in, but I don't think I skimped on the bench runs (the old rich for 2 mins then lean out to full rpm for a few secs then cut off lean, allow to cool, repeat)

I actually felt quite comfortable starting the engine, even on the plane.

Thanks
Jon

dirtydan · Jan 09, 2004 02:14 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#32 source
Jon and Ty,

In referring to 2001/2002 SIG catalog, GRW tanks are listed on page N23.

Part of the confusion comes from what I refer to as chicken-hopper tanks being referred to as "Profile Uniflo Combat Tanks" in the SIG catalog.

As mentioned previously, I am using the 3.25-ounce tanks on both ARF FSs and they are 2.25 inches in length. Lots of room for them, to the point where on the most recent model I actually whittled away at the motor cutout in fuselage, moving the 25FP rearward.

I kinda think the 4.25-ounce GRW tank would fit behind a Fox 35 on an ARF FS, but have no way of knowing. A little input from Phil Cartier would be of help here.

For those who care, SIG part numbers are GRW325C for the 3.25-ounce chicken hopper, larger sizes are GRW375C, GRW425C, GRW5125C, GRW575C, tank capacity being deciphered by only the most clever of modelers.

Jon, I know it must hurt to spend 15 bucks on a tank for your $60.00 ARF, especially when the sucker came with a tank. But a good tank is an absolute must if you expect anything worthwhile from the model.

Dan

xain · Jan 12, 2004 04:20 AM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too weak for Flite St#33 source
LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-04 AT 04:31 AM (CDT)
 
Hi Dan,
Cheeky monkey! This is a scratch built plane! That's kinda the reason why I decided to scatch build my own tanks. I used to buy them, until I made my first one (had no choice, nothing else would fit in the combat wing) and since then I figured, why not?

Now I've had enough tank problems to think of a reason why not.

I rather liked the feeling that I'd built my own tank rather than just buying one. Call me tight, but I just don't feel comfortable thowing money at the problem until I'm convinced that the problem isn't me. (in this case, I'm convinced enough)
Part of me will be rather disappointed when the commercial tank works much better, because I wasn't able to produce a working one myself.

Jon

Iskandar Taib · Jan 12, 2004 06:03 AM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too weak for Flite St#34 source
Once you've bought the tank and verified it works, you can always build another exactly like it...

Bob Reeves · Mar 26, 2004 06:22 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too weak for Flite St#42 source
I am pretty sure the 3.25 ounce tank is the largest that will fit a FS. At least it is the largest that will fit one I built from a Top Flight kit.

BTW: I spent several weeks when I returned to CL trying to get an OS 30S to run on this Streak. Tried everything already mentioned plus a few other tricks... The final fix was to take the old iron piston engine off and replace it with an FP 25.

Kiwi · Mar 26, 2004 07:27 PM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too weak for Flite St#44 source
>BTW: I spent several weeks when I returned to CL trying to get an OS 30S to run on
>this Streak. Tried everything already mentioned plus a few other tricks... The
>final fix was to take the old iron piston engine off and replace it with an FP 25.

As related previously, perhaps even in the dark ancient regions of this thread when it was still a young pup, at least two kinds of engines of mine disliked the then-available tanks that had more than 2 1/2 Ounces of capacity. The Fox35 and a Max-S both ran poorly with the deep-body Veco "profile" tanks, and with a wide oval from Taffinder, similar to an enlarged Perfect wedge.

With time, I found that tanks wider than 2" were generally undesireable for those engines, when running in a classic breaking mode. The deep body tanks were anathema, period. A pocket in the profile fuselage was a great improvement for many of the classic style engines when operated on profiles.

But exactly as related by Dan Rutherford here in one of his many ARF- Streak- with FP- threads, an inboard mounted clunk works as well for a breaking run as it does for a wet two-cycle. The only way that I've ever used a clunk for CL was with its widest sides aligned vertically, which makes it fairly narrow. Running with these does take a certain amount of experimenting to avoid going way too rich in the air with inboard tanks.

.

Kiwi

**

ferocious · Mar 27, 2004 08:11 AM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#45 source
GRW tanks
3.25 oz. 2.35 in. long
3.75 oz. 2.73 in.
4.25 oz. 3.1 in.

The Core House has 'em in stock and ready to ship. SIG too probably.

Anyway, Xain's problem sounds a lot like the typical profile front end vibration. Motor tends to surge and run erratically on the ground, doesn't run steady, responds erratically to changing the needle valve. Then when you launch the plane it either goes very rich(most common because the fuel is foaming in the tank) or very lean(hits a new vibration mode that makes the fuel foam). If it ran semi OK in a rich 2 cycle and went to an over rich 4 cycle when you richened it up a bit this is likely the main problem. Things like tank position, fuel blend(assuming you have at least 25% castor oil), plug, prop, etc. are all for fine tuning a setup where the motor runs predictably and consistently.

The key observation is bubbles in the fuel line, and the amount of bubbles changes with things like engine speed, how the plane is being held, etc. A solid, well-built plane will generally have NO bubbles in the fuel line, or it may show a small, very consistent stream of bubbles that doesn't change, they just are always there. Either case you should be able to gradually turn the needle valve in and out and the motor should smoothly track the needle setting, gradually getting richer and switching to a 4 stroke when the NV is opened up, and smoothly going faster and switching gradually into a 4/2-2/2 break as the NV is closed.

If vibration is the problem you may be able to get useable runs by changing props and fuel to find a combination that is more tolerant and keeps the vibration modes away from the fuel foaming frequencies. Smaller prop is a very good idea. An 8/6 was a very common prop on Fox 35 slow combat planes. Even a worn out Fox will haul a Flitestreak very well on an 8/6. Or try a 9/4 or 9/5 to keep the speed down.


good luck

Phil C

SRiese5283 · Mar 26, 2004 11:26 AM

RE: Fox35 in 4-2-4 too week for Flite St#40 source
>Hi Ty!
>
>I'm using an R/C fuel which was 9% synthetic, 6% castor and
>10% nitro, and adding castor in to make it up to 29% oil. I
>did the maths
>very carefully and it was verified on this group sometime
>back, so I'm fairly happy with the fuel. When I shake the
>can vigourously it doesn't foam (but I haven't added any
>extras to it apart from the oil)
>
>I ran a lot of fuel through it, following the cast iron
>run-in proceedure and it now starts and runs very sweetly,
>although I did comment a long while back that it seems to be
>very hot when it stops.
>
>So I'm not sure how to tell if it's fully run in, but I
>don't think I skimped on the bench runs (the old rich for 2
>mins then lean out to full rpm for a few secs then cut off
>lean, allow to cool, repeat)
>
>I actually felt quite comfortable starting the engine, even
>on the plane.
>
>Thanks
>Jon

OOOOHHHHHH Boy

Scott Riese

KnightFlite · Mar 25, 2004 08:47 PM

#36 source
I had the same problem with my flitestreak, with a fox 35 stunt, and acme u2 tank. Well all I did was put an len neumman tounge muffler on it, and ran it on muffler presure and lol and behold it runs just great!! I would highly recomend this setup!! All i can say is try it you,ll like it, you will be suprised!! -Paul

De Hill · Mar 25, 2004 09:23 PM

#37 source
Sometimes an engine will go rich(or lean) after takeoff. In your case I didn't see on this thread whether your engine was actually going rich, or super lean.

One thing you can try; close off one vent, and place a piece of fuel tubing in the other vent and push a 1/2" piece of 3/32" brass, copper, or aluminum tubing in it. Now the fuel tank is getting less air, and the engine doesn't go rich(or lean) after takeoff.

But:

If your problem is being caused by fuel foaming, it won't help.

De Hill

Lou Crane · Mar 26, 2004 09:50 AM

#38 source
Jon,

... Fox 35s on profiles most often need the fuel pickup (or inside end of uniflow vent tube) about 1/4" (6mm) higher than the center of the venturii. Some fluke about the engine is involved. You can come close to proper tank height for a specific sample height by a ground test, too.

Start the engine and set it clearly rich. Roll the fuselage outboard tip vertically down, keeping the fuse centerline horizontal. Roll the wings to 45º cockpit-up and note or tach for RPM change. Roll it 45º cockpit-down and, again, note or tach RPM change. The 45º angle isn't critical, but try for the same angle both ways from wings vertical, and keep the fuselage centerline horizontal.

If the engine goes richer in one "45º" rolled attitude, the tank is relatively too high in that direction -- you are getting some gravity feed added to the venturii fuel draw. Cross check: both "rolled" attitudes should cause an RPM change from fuse horizontal/wings vertical.

What this does is simulate, to a useful degree, the load angles on the fuel in flight. Gravity and "centrifugal" force both act then, and we can't simulate the quantity of CF on the ground. We CAN simulate an angle for the "resultant" of those two forces, though.

Of course, after finding which way the tank is too high, point the nose straight down, with outboard wingtip a bit high to starve off the engine. Shift the tank to lower it from the "too-high" side, and run the check again. You should find a tank height with very little, ideally NO, RPM change between the rolled positions. That should be very close. If the model flies nose high or low, you will notice a slight run difference. This is more evident with uniflow vented tanks.

BTW -- Fox iron on steel engines do not like synthetic oil at all. All synthetics are detergent, and these metals need to be saturated with hot castor residues to run long and well. Detergents make shiny metal, where the Foxes need to show the dark residues on the piston.

Best of luck -- it should be a very enjoyable combo!

\BEST\LOU

Currell · Mar 26, 2004 10:06 AM

#39 source
But Foxes don't mind a castor/syn mix at all, especially if the castor is the majority. Currell

Rustler · Mar 26, 2004 05:08 PM

#41 source
Back in the 60's fellow clubmember Dave Balch had a nice Flite Streak with Fox 35. There was no question about lack of power, it had ample, though he didn't try to 4-2-4 it. What was intriguing was that it ran so hot, if you got to it quickly after it landed, you could refuel and restart without a battery. This proved a bit disconcerting to the opposition in a combat match. Dave has been in the U.S. for many years now, currently with Hughes helicopters I believe. Or is it Sikorsky? One or the other.

Ian R.

KnightFlite · Mar 26, 2004 06:48 PM

#43 source
It must of been sikorsky!! Paul