model box transportation

Hello gents,
I know this topic has already appeared some time ago. However times, security systems, and alarm stages have changed. So I'm asking again.
We ( my friend and me ) are part of the German F2B team at the world championships 2004 at Muncie. We're already making plans for our American adventure. Our biggest problem is model box transportation.
In the past this has never been a problem. Offer your suitcase and the box at check in, and that's it. These times are probably gone. It's not a problem from Europe to America, but on the way BACK ! We are considering air feight ( this is very convenient - the box is delivered directly to a company in Muncie ). However it's extremely expensive. About 1000 Dollars each box ( and of course we'd like to take a reserve model with us !).
I've heard that even within your own country transportation is a problem. I know that even airline employees ( captains !) have chosen to drive thousands of miles to Muncie because they were not sure whether the airline ( or the security service ) would accept their boxes. Now imagine the situation of a foreigner in your country, trying to offer an obscure box at the check in ! We are very sceptical.
My question: has anyone of you had any experience with model box transportation recently? I can understand that airlines and AMA cannot give concrete advice in this question. So we're asking for personal experience from individuals. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.
Kind regards, claus

Claus, get rid of the turban and beard. That might help.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-04 AT 12:02 PM (CDT)
 

>I've heard that even within your own country transportation
>is a problem. I know that even airline employees ( captains
>!) have chosen to drive thousands of miles to Muncie because
>they were not sure whether the airline ( or the security
>service ) would accept their boxes. Now imagine the
>situation of a foreigner in your country, trying to offer an
>obscure box at the check in ! We are very sceptical.
>My question: has anyone of you had any experience with model
>box transportation recently? I can understand that airlines
>and AMA cannot give concrete advice in this question. So
>we're asking for personal experience from individuals. Any
>help is greatly appreciated.

Well, to give you a hint, I did get denied passage with a model box once, and it was iffy one other time. This was domestic travel *before* 9/11. Used to be that the biggest issue was whether you would have to pay the $50 oversize luggage price, but I'd happily pay $500 for a guaranteed result now.

I've done probably 30 airline check-ins since 9/11, none with airplane boxes. It's my experience that it's really a crapshoot what you will get at any US domestic airport. Even with regular travel items, sometimes, it's "toss it on the belt" and walk to the gate with far shorter waits than before 9/11. Or it's a hassle from start to finish.

I wouldn't even try to get on an airplane with an airplane box these days. I don't know anyone who has even tried it (and I know some of the same airline captains you do!) The chances of getting the airplane on are probably less than 25%, and the fact that there is no way at all to know ahead of time makes it not worth the risk to me. I would guess you would have a much better chance with foreign carriers than US domestic (i.e. Lufthansa vs. Delta/United/American).

If you do decide to do it, be prepared to open and completely disassemble/unpack the box at the airport. A full airplane box won't fit through the x-ray or the sniffer, so it will have to be hand-inspected.

I would guess that freight shipping is your best bet. Several people have done that fro the NATs over the last few years, and it works fine. The AMA HQ has been very accomodating about taking receipt of the boxes and storing them, and I would expect them to be even more accomodating for W/C competitors. Other than that. maybe flying to Canada and driving down might be an option, but the border is much more like a border these days.

Brett

BTW, don't bring that drawing to the airport! All kidding aside, that sort of humor is really not high on TSA's list. People have been detained for things like that.

I would also note that the TSA doesn't tend to hire the best and brightest. No slam to their employees in general, but like Brett, I've flown many times since 9/11 and these people not only have no sense of humor at all, but tend toward something of a "God" complex. They hired an awful lot of people in a very short period of time. I spent an hour and an half and missed a flight because some random TSA employee decided that since I set the alarm off going through the metal detector, I MUST have a weapon. I explained to 5 different people numerous times that the 4 metal pins in my foot were what was setting it off, but they still ran the detector over my bare foot about 10 times. For awhile I thought they were going to insist on x-rays. Yeah, right, I have a gun emplanted in my foot. Sheesh!

A lot will also depend on the alert level. Also, shipping could get interesting: if the dogs even get a whiff of nitromethane or methanol or castor, they can impound the crate. It been suggested that you remove the engine and tank from the plane, wipe it down extremely well and pack the engine and tank in a sealed container. An don't even hint that these chemicals have even been in proximity to the model.

Now, none of that sort of stuff will likely happen. The percentage is small, but it could. Just be prepared.

Responsibility for your stuff now is split between TSA and the airline. They steal things out of your toolbox and blame each other.

>I would also note that the TSA doesn't tend to hire the best
>and brightest.

I would expect that it's got to be an unpleasant job at best, so I wouldn't necessarily imagine that anyone would quit thier job as brain surgeon to rush into airport security.

I have had very widely variable experiences with TSA. For whatever reason, most of the TSA employees I have run across are really just fine. At San Jose, they are really very cordial and generally seem to be happy and well-adjusted. Some other places, they are very grim indeed. However, I have never seen a case when they were not professional.

I point out that they are definitely at the front lines - one screw-up and they have to assume another airplane hits another building. And they are not getting hazard pay - more like minimum wage. Maybe the highest ratio of responsibility to pay of any public servants. At best they midly annoy everyone they see in their daily business, and at worst are pretty well required to be as big a pains in the posterior as possible. Most people would not enjoy themselves or be cordial in this situation.

I cut them a huge amount of slack.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-04 AT 00:44 AM (CDT)
 
Brett,

That's a good point. And they are just following orders, as it were. It's sure hasn't done the airline business much good.

I read an interesting statistic in a Philadelphia Enquirer article. Prior to 9/11 the chances of smuggling a weapon on a plane was about %30. After 9/11 and all the massive security upgrades the chances of sneaking a weapon on a plane is, well, about %30.

But it's certainly not universally bad or anything. The TSA folks have been generally pleasent (with a few very notable exceptions) most places I've been and a lot depends on the current threat level. They get pretty testy when they've been griped at all day.

Claus, I have no personal experiences shipping my airplanes thru the airline baggage system, but have you given thought to useing Fed-ex or DHL and having a buddy here recieve your plane? I looked into shipping an over sized box to New Zealand, and the best price was about $230us. I hope everything turns out alright for you. Good Luck

I believe that our AMA has researched some of these issues? I would start by contacting Dave Brown and Steve Kaluf.

See Ya

LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-04 AT 10:05 AM (CDT)
 
>My question: has anyone of you had any experience with model
>box transportation recently? I can understand that airlines
>and AMA cannot give concrete advice in this question. So
>we're asking for personal experience from individuals. Any
>help is greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.
>Kind regards, claus

Claus,

Hertzlichen Begruss!! Here is what I can offer you from my own experiences.

I have been a member of the US FAI Spacmodeling (model rocket) team twice, once in 2000 and again in 2002. Our models have two potential problems: they look like rockets (big surprise) and the models and equipment are contaminated with pyrotechnic residue. This caused us a lot of concern prior to the 2002 trip. I personally built all new launch towers and ignition wiring so as to not have contaminated equipment. And the models were pristine. This is of course not an option for some classes where the models are extensively flown in practice (RC Rocket Gliders, class S8E/P). I was very careful to wash my hands before handling my model cases or luggage. I gave away most of my used models in Prague, but traded them for other contaminated models, so there was residue in my luggage. I packed the dirty models in plastic bags.

The bottom line was that nobody in our team of 23 people had any problems being stopped or hassled. I find this remarkable. The airlines were more concerned with excess baggage charges, but I was the only one charged, and I had the least excess baggage! That's because I was on Northwest, the others on United and Lufthansa. So post 9/11 we hauled excess dirty baggage (most had contamination, they had not built new launchers) containing (harmless) pyrotechnic soot to and from Prague with no problems.

One rule we did follow without exception: no rocket engines, igniters, or other flammable material of any kind in any luggage. This is strictly illegal, and must never be done. We purchase all our pyrotechnic material in Europe, and bring none of it back in our luggage!

What does this prove? Nothing, I think. If we did it 100 times my guess is that we would have problems 10 times. But that's just my wild guess, and gut feeling.

I know a lot of Wakefield rubber fliers (class F1B) who fly to contests regularly. One fellow in particular (spacemodeling team mate) flies from Norfolk Virginia, where security is *very* tight. They hand inspect his model box and then load it in the hold. So far he's never had a problem. I recently flew out of Norfolk and found the TSA folks to be very polite, professional and efficient. The big difference with F1B is there is no issue of pyrotechnic residue, which brings us to F2B.

The biggest single concern with your models is that the are contaminated with nitromethane residue, which would test positive as explosive. The AMA has released guidelines and a special letter you can carry that states that your model airplane has had its fuel system flushed with pure castor oil to remove nitro residue, and that it is a model airplane. That's what was available for our last trip to Europe (2002). It didn't really apply to spacemodels, of course.

My recommendations:

1) Contact AMA and get the latest information on this topic. I know for a fact that AMA has been working with TSA on this, and that they have guidelines for you to follow. At one point there was talk that the *engines* might be disallowed. I don't know how that was resolved. Contact Steve Kaluf and get the latest facts.

2) Get your models and equipment as clean and free of nitromethane residue as possible.

3) Be careful not to contaminate the outside of your luggage with fuel residue. Wash your hands if you have been handling fuel. Never, ever bring any flammable material in your luggage.

4) Keep your boxes inside the legal size restrictions if and whenever possible. Large boxes attract much more scrutiny. Models that break down are a real advantage here. It is a real *pain* to do this. I bought special hard shell cases from SKB for the job. Big airplanes may just make this impractical.

5) If you can afford it, then shipping critical materials is the only way to ensure their transportation. There will always be some small risk that a box will be dis-allowed as luggage. This is very expensive, however.

The bottom line is that there is always going to be some uncertainty, but in general people have been having good luck traveling with models. Get the most up to date facts from AMA, and plan accordingly.

Good Luck!

Andy

>>What does this prove? Nothing, I think. If we did it 100 times my guess is that we would have problems 10 times. But that's just my wild guess, and gut feeling.<<

This is probably slightly high. I suspect closer to 5 out of a hundred. It's one of those things that you are not very likely to have a problem. If you do, it's a big problem.

I am very happy to hear the AMA is trying to deal with this. A letter from the AMA would go a long way I think.

Claus,

I think the problem of travelling with an F2B model or models across the ocean has always been very, not to say too complicated. I had three of these experiences in 1978/1980 and 1984 for WCs that I could attend and everytime I figured out a different solution.

The last time in 1984 I decided to build a model box that would transport my model, tools and clothes. Every element, model, tools and clothes very well separated in the box. At that time I did not have a model with detachable parts other than the prop, spinner and landing gears. So imagine the type of box I had. Needless to say that everyone at the airport wanted to know what I was carrying.

With all the present preocupations and verifications by authorities, I do belive it is a matter of extreme importance to avoid tiring discussions and probable problems. Unfortunately I have no recent experience to share but I must say that I did give a strong laugh when I saw your drawing and I think it is better than the one I am attaching.

Good luck and make sure to witness your experience in writing when you are back.

Hey Claus,

I have shipped control line model airplanes on the airlines since 9/11, from ATL to TUC and back last Mar. Had no problems whatsoever. My airplanes were clean, but I didn't get weird about it. There were NO flammables. I made sure my box was within the airline's size standards. Being a cardboard box, it really didn't attract much attention and was lightweight. Since I am an employee of that airline, I didn't hit with a oversize luggage fee, but was told it would have been $100 each way (domestic, don't know about international). I have also shipped that box with models on FEDEX without incident.

Consider using an airline provided bicycle box, it's even more benign.

TSA is a non issue, oversized boxes disappear at the ticket counter, so they shouldn't ever get involved, THANK GOD.

Sorry I cannot provide any insurance. With respect to the possibility that they may want to unpack the plane and inspect it, keep in mind you have a right to privacy. This means if you calmly ask for it, they should provide you with a reasonably private location to do so. Trying something like that at a ticket counter would be a goat rope. Consider putting some packing tape inside the box, so you have something to put it back together again.

Tools

LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-04 AT 10:10 AM (CDT)
 
>
>TSA is a non issue, oversized boxes disappear at the ticket
>counter, so they shouldn't ever get involved, THANK GOD.
>

I don't understand this: by law TSA must screen ALL baggage for explosives. You may not see them do it, but TSA inspects ALL baggage. This may not have been the case when last you traveled, but it is the law now. At DTW they have the TSA inspectors and their machines behind the ticket counters in plain view of all. This may vary from airport to airport, however.

Andy

Edit: One other point to remember: do not pack your photographic film in your checked luggage. The new, more powerful screening equipment will *destroy* photographic film. This was not the case previously, and the airlines used to encourage people to pack their film in checked bags to ease the screening burden at the carry-on screening stations. This is no longer true. Most airports have signs posted proclaiming this fact. Pack your film in your carry-on luggage.

AT

From what I am hearing, those shipping INTO USA won't have nearly the problems as those shipping back to their countries post-contest.

Rich Giacobone's son, Richie, just completed the Customs Training (he can carry a gun now!), I'll try to get in touch with him to see if any of this is mentioned of late.

See Ya

Claus, You probably won't recall our brief meetings at prevous VSCs but we have been introduced. I will be at the Worlds with an Impact that you are welcome to use. It's engine is a 65 PA/RO so you'll have to dig up an engine. Just as a last resort, of coarse. It's a little twitchy and certainly not up to your standards, but it will display your flying skills for all the world to see! Best regards,

Kaz Minato flew to Brodak's last year. As you know, he lives in Japan now. He brought his plane in and out so I would suggest an e-mail to Kaz.

Good luck.

hello Guys,
I thank you all very much for your replies. It was first class information ( btw. I think this is what this forum was built up for, and this is its greatest value ).
Yes Paul, I have already contacted Kaz when I heard that he had been at Brodaks. He said he didn't have any problems.
At this moment we're trying to get information from UPS. Perhaps this might be a solution.
Please - what is FEDEX ?
claus

>hello Guys,
>I thank you all very much for your replies. It was first
>class information ( btw. I think this is what this forum was
>built up for, and this is its greatest value ).
>Yes Paul, I have already contacted Kaz when I heard that he
>had been at Brodaks. He said he didn't have any problems.
>At this moment we're trying to get information from UPS.
>Perhaps this might be a solution.
>Please - what is FEDEX ?
>claus

Federal Express - another delivery company that is UPS's primary competitor.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-04 AT 07:52 PM (CDT)
 
Hey!

You're going to America, and you have the right to take you models wherever it pleases you!

Talk to a lawyer and if necessary get a court order.

Go to the American embassy!

Remember, YOU are right, if they wanna keep you from takin' your stunt ship wherever it pleases you THEY are WRONG!

Funny, you guys don't know what a free country is, and you live in the freest country on earth...