Adjustable Leadout Location

I am installing adjustable leadouts on the Magician I am currently building. The plan shows fixed leadouts spaced 2 3/8 in. apart, while the adjustable leads are 3/4 in. apart. Where should the adjustable leadouts be positioned in relation to fixed ones. In other words, should the forward adjustable wire be in approximately the same location as shown on the plan, or should both wires be centered on the leadout location shown on the plan, or what? I apologize for the confusing question, hopefully you will understand.

> I am installing adjustable leadouts on the Magician I am
>currently building. The plan shows fixed leadouts spaced 2
>3/8 in. apart, while the adjustable leads are 3/4 in. apart.
>Where should the adjustable leadouts be positioned in
>relation to fixed ones. In other words, should the forward
>adjustable wire be in approximately the same location as
>shown on the plan, or should both wires be centered on the
>leadout location shown on the plan, or what? I apologize for
>the confusing question, hopefully you will understand.

Don,

I would like to see you go for the "or what?" option.

But I think your second guess is the one I would use. The wording seems awkward, but find center point of the stock leadouts. That will be the center point for your adjustable leadouts.

This is what I have done in the past for the first few flights, although trimming generally resulted in moving them.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-04 AT 03:55 PM (CDT)
 
> I am installing adjustable leadouts on the Magician I am
>currently building. The plan shows fixed leadouts spaced 2
>3/8 in. apart, while the adjustable leads are 3/4 in. apart.
>Where should the adjustable leadouts be positioned in
>relation to fixed ones. In other words, should the forward
>adjustable wire be in approximately the same location as
>shown on the plan, or should both wires be centered on the
>leadout location shown on the plan, or what? I apologize for
>the confusing question, hopefully you will understand.

While DD's suggestion will get you into the ballpark, There's a way to get closer if you want to go to a little extra work.

A good starting point for centering adjustable leadouts can be found, by first locating the balance point at the wingtip. Most accept the idea that ~3 to 3.5 degree sweep back from CG, (figured from MAC)will be very close to the correct position.

One can use the plans, and lay this out, or you can do as Ted Fancher once said. Center the leadouts, a thumb width behind the CG at the tip. This will get you real close, and further trimming will nail the correct location for you.

I'm wondering why everything is spinning around?

Once the model is finished, hang it by the leadouts and set the guide where the model hangs just slightly nose down (out). When you start flying the model, you should be looking right down the wing. If you can see the leading edge, move the guide forward no more than 1/8 inch and fly again. If everything is straight, the engine is running good, and you still lose tension overhead, move the leadouts forward, no more than 1/8 in and try again. Always make only slight changes, even 1/16 will make a difference.

Jim,

Wouldn't moving the leadouts forward decrease the line tension even more?

>Jim,
>
>Wouldn't moving the leadouts forward decrease the line
>tension even more?
>
>Tom

If the location is too far forward, certainly. But when you are in this starting range that we are talking about (thumb's width, one inch, whatever, behind the cg), check the tension in level flight and at around 45 degrees. If the tension is less at 45, then moving the leadouts forward just slightly will increase the overhead tension at the expense of a little down below. The trick here is to try to equalize tension between level and around 45 degrees. You will always lose some straight overhead due to this thing called gravity, but if you have 3 g's down below and two g's straight overhead, that works.

(Now if Gene Roddenberry can "invent" an artificial gravity device for the starship Enterprise, wouldn't it be interesting if someone could come up with an artificial gravity nullifier? Until then, I guess we continue to try to build light.)

or you can do as
>Ted Fancher once said. Center the leadouts, a thumb width
>behind the CG at the tip.

I said that! I don't think so.

That wouldn't be real far off, though on a wing as short as a Magician. Basing leadout position on CG is absolutely correct though. Other things will effect the final location ... rudder and engine offset, line length and diameter, flight speed etc. , but starting at a safe position relative to the CG is right on the money.

For any remotely normal type of set up you could start with the center of the leadouts an inch aft of the CG (keep the leadouts close together for reasons that could be discussed another time) and not worry about safety of flight.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-13-04 AT 01:52 PM (CDT)
 
>or you can do as
>>Ted Fancher once said. Center the leadouts, a thumb width
>>behind the CG at the tip.
>
>I said that! I don't think so.
>

Just shows me that my memory may not be as good as I thought it was.

I was referring to postings either here or on Isky's old board a few years ago when this same subject came up.

I was sure it was you Ted, but, my apologies are offered.

I'm wondering why everything is spinning around?

>>
>I was sure it was you Ted, but, my apologies are offered.

Naw, you never have to apologize to me, John. I just wanted tocorrect a misconception. As I said, the thumb won't be that far off.

>>Ted Fancher once said. Center the leadouts, a thumb width
>>behind the CG at the tip.
>
>I said that! I don't think so.
>
>That wouldn't be real far off, though on a wing as short as
>a Magician. Basing leadout position on CG is absolutely
>correct though. Other things will effect the final location
>... rudder and engine offset, line length and diameter,
>flight speed etc. , but starting at a safe position relative
>to the CG is right on the money.
>
>For any remotely normal type of set up you could start with
>the center of the leadouts an inch aft of the CG (snip)
>
>Ted

Hey Ted, how wide is your thumb? If you didn't say it before, you just said it now. I measured my thumb and it is .978 inches wide. So, "a thumb's width", "an inch", sounds pretty good to me.

Boy Scout manual. Width of a thumb is approximately one inch.

>Hey Ted, how wide is your thumb? If you didn't say it
>before, you just said it now. I measured my thumb and it is
>.978 inches wide. So, "a thumb's width", "an inch", sounds
>pretty good to me.

Hmmmm, yeah, Ok, I said it.

I'll try to post a photo of what I did on my Magician. May be It'll be useful:)

Dinobob,

Thanks for the picture. I mounted mine in the outboard rib.

>Dinobob,
>
> Thanks for the picture. I mounted mine in the outboard
>rib.

Don,

You're teasing us, right?

>>Dinobob,
>>
>> Thanks for the picture. I mounted mine in the outboard
>>rib.
>
>
>Don,
>
>You're teasing us, right?
>
>Dan

OH, Dirt. Shame on you. And I was sitting on my hands trying to behave myself.

>>>Dinobob,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the picture. I mounted mine in the outboard
>>>rib.
>>
>>
>>Don,
>>
>>You're teasing us, right?
>>
>>Dan
>
>OH, Dirt. Shame on you. And I was sitting on my hands
>trying to behave myself.
>
>Ted

Ted,

When ya get a shot, even a cheap one, ya gotta take it. This was pretty much a red-mist shot, and I am most certainly not ashamed.

Say, Mr. Cool Handles 'R Us, you are going to freak when you see my newest CL handle. While I have not yet actually flown a model with it, I believe the basic idea to be entirely original, am most anxious to apply for and (hopefully) receive the coveted Fancher Seal of Approval at the 2004 NW Regionals.

Assuming that load you're now building is competitive. Should this not be the case, do not bring the old sled. It turns out you killed one of the few remaining bees living at the Albany airport last year; the Propspinners have thus been forced to file--and fund--an enviromental impact statement prior to officially scheduling this year's event.

Terrible Ted, indeed.

Dan

P.S. If it truly is an impact statement, why can't we have the bill sent to PW's home?

>>>>Dinobob,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the picture. I mounted mine in the outboard
>>>>rib.
>>>
>>>
>>>Don,
>>>
>>>You're teasing us, right?
>>>
>>>Dan
>>
>>OH, Dirt. Shame on you. And I was sitting on my hands
>>trying to behave myself.
>>
>>Ted
>
>
>Ted,
>
>When ya get a shot, even a cheap one, ya gotta take it. This
>was pretty much a red-mist shot, and I am most certainly not
>ashamed.
>
>Say, Mr. Cool Handles 'R Us, you are going to freak when you
>see my newest CL handle. While I have not yet actually flown
>a model with it, I believe the basic idea to be entirely
>original, am most anxious to apply for and (hopefully)
>receive the coveted Fancher Seal of Approval at the 2004 NW
>Regionals.
>
>Assuming that load you're now building is competitive.
>Should this not be the case, do not bring the old sled. It
>turns out you killed one of the few remaining bees living at
>the Albany airport last year; the Propspinners have thus
>been forced to file--and fund--an enviromental impact
>statement prior to officially scheduling this year's event.
>
>Terrible Ted, indeed.
>
>Dan
>
>P.S. If it truly is an impact statement, why can't we have
>the bill sent to PW's home?
>
>

Dirt,

I don't see the problem. After all, I caught and then released. What more can I do?

Ted
>

LAST EDITED ON Jan-13-04 AT 02:24 PM (CDT)
 
No. Well, maybe the outboard rib on the inside wing. How about that?

Maybe I'm missing something here. If the leadouts are adjustable, why are you asking us where to put them? Why not build the model the way it was meant to be?

>Maybe I'm missing something here. If the leadouts are
>adjustable, why are you asking us where to put them? Why not
>build the model the way it was meant to be?

Dave,

Yep, you're missing something here.

I learned the stunt pattern with a stock kit Magician and Fox 35. I did not know about adjustable leadouts, etc. I found that the wide spacing of the leadouts would make the airplane yaw when control was applied. Specifically, when starting the outside square loop, the airplane would yaw in (down line front) and basically freeflight down. After I took the rudder off several times from not having enough control power to get around the bottom corner, I made a movable rudder hooked to the elevator which went out when down was given. That was not the best solution, but kept the rudder on the airplane. If I had had leadouts as discussed here I would have had no problem. Actually, even with 3/4 spacing there is sometimes a little yaw in maneuvers. I've gone to leadouts out one hole on 1/2As.