Anybody ever tried Brodak color over Sig nitrate base? How about over Sig nitrate/butyrate base?
Brodak over Sig
Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 18 of 18 known posts recovered
>Anybody ever tried Brodak color over
>Sig nitrate base? How about
>over Sig nitrate/butyrate base?
>Sig nitrate base? How about
>over Sig nitrate/butyrate base?
In general, it should work, but there have been some horror stories, too. I think the biggest problem is the SIG dope is a lot slower in drying and can lead to meltdown (where the colors from underneath mix with what is on top.) This can happen with any dope base if the undercoats are not cured well enough or the top base is too slow in drying. And if it dries too quickly, it won't bite. You will end up with a layer that just peels off.
If you have some old stuff you want to get rid of, I guess you can try it. But it is always best to stick with one or the other. The Brodak formula is a lot different...and for the better.
Leonard Neumann
Leonard Neumann
you are correct Leonard in that I am thinking about going from Sig to Brodak but have quite a bit of various Sig stuff laying around. I have heard that some/most Brodak dopes are only marginally fuel proof, even at 5% nitro and require Randolph clear coats to assure fuel proofing, Randolph said to be good to 15% or so. I would only rarely use above 5%, never over 10%. Any observations on Brodak fuel proofability? How about polyurethane spray over Brodak?
Lt Col Tom McClain · Aug 27, 2001 01:30 PM
#3 sourceDear Jim,
In order to use up your supply of SIG, I would mix them with Brodak thinner to make them more capable with the Brodak colors. As far as resistance to fuel goes, I have not had any problems with 5 or 10% nitro ABC fuel. I don't know who told you of any alleged Brodak dope vulnerability to nitro, but my experience says it is a myth. I would avoid overlaying nitrate dope with butyrate dope as a general rule. I know there are those that like using nitrate to do the filling in of the grain and weave and some have good results with it. But, I have stayed away from that and have gone to 100% butyrate from fill to finish. I have not had any problems with any Brodak products so far. I have used up all of my SIG products and have gone 100% Brodak and couldn't be happier. Windy Urtnowski has done the same and his stunt ships, Miss Ashley II and the Typhoon are great explanations of the quality of Brodak dope.
Lt Col Tom McClain
It may be that some of the stories you have heard about Brodak being non fuel proof come from those who have tried putting butyrate over nitrate. If you get any fuel underneath, it is going to eat into the nitrate (which is not fuel proof) and lift off. We have been using 5% to 15% nitro and have had no problems relating to fuel proof. Don't be afraid of it.
Leonard Neumann
Leonard Neumann
LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-01 AT 07:20 AM (CDT)
I remember reading on one of the forums a couple of years ago that the major problem with Brodak's over some other dopes is caused by Brodak's drying faster, leaving the other dopes to finish gassing off which sometimes separates the layers.
I think the saving graces of nitrate are that it gasses off quickly, it sticks to the wood and covering better, and it doesn't shrink as much as Butyrate (which can be good OR bad).
I agree that using one product through and through DOES make the whole process easier to work with. Some suggest dumping all your old dope and replacing it with Brodak's. I personally am much too frugal (cheap?) to do that...but I AM slowly switching to Brodak's. Currently I use Brodak clear and everything up to the color coats. Then it is either use Brodak or use-up the older paints (I still even have a couple of cans of Testor's).
I sometimes enhance compatibility by adding some Brodak clear and/or thinner to the other dope. Seems to work so far.
I must admit though that I usually brush on a turbulator finish 
(see thread on turbulators).
In all fairness to other manufacturers, people seem to be able to get great finishes with their paint also. Your choice.
Good luck with your finish.
George
Being tighter than bark on a tree, I guess I'll go ahead with the Sig Nitrate base and Brodak on top being absolutely positively certain than the nitrate is fully gassed off.
Appreciate the insight-will post results good or bad. Feel much better with the assurance that Brodak is truely fuel proof.
Appreciate the insight-will post results good or bad. Feel much better with the assurance that Brodak is truely fuel proof.
Just remember the caveat (warning): The Butyrate on top is fuel proof. The nitrate underneath is not. Any fuel that gets to the undersides from any source, (stress crack, hinge gap, fuel leaking from within,....) can mean it will eat into the nitrate on the underside. Also, dope top coats always eat into the layers underneath. This is what gives them the bite to stick. Sometimes there is too much bite and there is a partial meltdown (mixing) of the layers. If this happens, then the nitrate base could contaminate the butyrate upper coats. I am just not a believer in using nitrate as a base--any nitrate.
If you do this however, let us know the outcome.
Leonard Neumann
Leonard Neumann
RocketCityJim · Aug 29, 2001 08:52 AM
#8 sourceLen,
Tom Morris does it (puts butyrate over nitrate) successfully all the time. However, he uses aircraft grade Randolph paints exclusively. So I guess when you keep within the same system you can get away with this. I tried Sig butyrate over Sig nitrate and had less than good results. so that was the end of my nitrate base days!
Jim Pollock
I have been using nitrate as a base for a number of models, placing either Sig, Aero Gloss or even Testor's over it. I have never had any problems with this technique. Currell
I have done both Lusterkote and Rustoleum over Sig nitrate with no problem and good results. Of course, these are not dope finishes. The nitrate allows me to cover bare wood with silkspan, fills easily and hopefully adds strength to structure.
The project in question will be flat camo for which dope would seem to be preferable to Lusterkote, etc. Also open bays will need to be filled and doped.
The smart play would be to use Brodak dope all the way through the process and save the Sig stuff for sniffing, lighting fires, graffiti messages, etc. I'll be getting into the project soon and will definitely report results.
The project in question will be flat camo for which dope would seem to be preferable to Lusterkote, etc. Also open bays will need to be filled and doped.
The smart play would be to use Brodak dope all the way through the process and save the Sig stuff for sniffing, lighting fires, graffiti messages, etc. I'll be getting into the project soon and will definitely report results.
A lot of the top finishers have used (or maybe still do use) nitrate under butyrate. Certainly it can be done. And if your plane does't last long, well, who cares? Brodak sells nitrate dope under their brand name as well. I am just saying, "Maybe" (I don't know, hypothetical only) if some have experienced "fuel proof" problems with Brodak, it is because they used nitrate under butyrate?
In the "good old days" we used to use Nitrage with fuel proofer over it. But I have had a lot of soggy paint finishes where the fuel leaked under the fuel proofer. Did you ever get a fuel leak in your tank compartment? Did you ever have fuel seep under the dope in the engine compartment? Did you ever have fuel seep into the tail section, into the wheel wells, the hinge slots? I know it is not supposed to happen, but I have seen a lot of crashed planes with a lot of fuel soaking inside.
Butyrate sticks silkspan down just fine. The Brodak butyrate fills silkspan just fine. It sticks to the materials we use just fine. I don't use nitrate. I don't see any real pluses, but I do see a lot of real possible minuses. However, the choice is up to you.
Leonard Neumann
Leonard Neumann
I
>don't see any real pluses,
>but I do see a
>lot of real possible minuses.
> However, the choice is
>up to you.
Leonard Neumann
>don't see any real pluses,
>but I do see a
>lot of real possible minuses.
> However, the choice is
>up to you.
Leonard Neumann
>The plus for Nitrate is that
>it contains more solids, and
>thus fills better than butyrate.
>You can visually tell the
>difference after three or four
>coats.
>
>Again, I am not talking about
>nitrate plus fuel proofer; nitrate
>under Sig/Aero Gloss/Testors, and, I
>presume, Brodak. Oh yes, Rustoleum
>goes over it well....
>Currell
Maybe when you compare SIG nitrate to SIG butyrate (or Aero Gloss or Testors) there are more solids involved, but have you compared Brodak Butyrate to any nitrate (Brodak included)? I don't see any difference. Some claim nitrate sticks better to some materials, and, if so, then that would be its edge. But we have never had a problem sticking butyrate down to any of the materials we use.
Leonard Neumann
Leonard Neumann
Two Words---Don't do it. Tried this and the Brodak seals up more quickly than the Sig. So, the Brodaks is relatively tight and the Sig is continuing to gas off. Result for me was the paint bubbling up. Worse yet, I thought initially it was something else and did it TWICE on two successive planes. Sheesh.
Which is why I'm painting my current plane with catylized poly-urthane (auto-paint). Cost a bit to get set up, but so far, I doubt I'll ever use dope again.
Randy
Currell:
Rustoleum white seems fuel proof to 15% Have only used 5% with Rustoleum Red, yellow and Black and no problems.Both Rustoleum and Lusterkote goes on well over Rustoleum grey auto primer which wet sands very well in as little as 15 minutes. Nils Norling seems to have quite a bit of experience with Rustoleum and did a lengthly thread which was quite good some time back. I think the only problem color he mentioned was aluminum and had reservations about other metallic colors. Bottom line on Nil's post was shake it a lot, then shake it a lot more, have the paint can very warm, keep shaking, two dry coats 15 minutes apart, keep shaking, and a final wet coat. Let it dry 2-3 days. Easy, cheap, fairly good shine. Go over after 48 hours or so with wet coat of clear for more shine and depth. I suspect Rustoleum finish may be somewhat heavier than dope but if only doing fuselage's it's pehaps not too significant.
Rustoleum white seems fuel proof to 15% Have only used 5% with Rustoleum Red, yellow and Black and no problems.Both Rustoleum and Lusterkote goes on well over Rustoleum grey auto primer which wet sands very well in as little as 15 minutes. Nils Norling seems to have quite a bit of experience with Rustoleum and did a lengthly thread which was quite good some time back. I think the only problem color he mentioned was aluminum and had reservations about other metallic colors. Bottom line on Nil's post was shake it a lot, then shake it a lot more, have the paint can very warm, keep shaking, two dry coats 15 minutes apart, keep shaking, and a final wet coat. Let it dry 2-3 days. Easy, cheap, fairly good shine. Go over after 48 hours or so with wet coat of clear for more shine and depth. I suspect Rustoleum finish may be somewhat heavier than dope but if only doing fuselage's it's pehaps not too significant.
Leonard & Randy
I'm sold- will not do Brodak over Sig nitrate. Guess I'll bite the bullet and get all Brodak stuff. From reading Brodak's finishing tips, I assume Brodak primer is sorta like sanding sealer?
Of course you could always use Sig Butyrate over Sig Nitrate or Butyrate, works well, no major problems. Just use Sig Thinner as an extra assurance.
Alan