Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 41 of 41 known posts recovered
Norm,
If Dave Cook is judging, you're screwed.
If Brett Buck is judging, you're probably in good shape.
Apologies if you do not belong to PAMPA and so are not aware of the views held by each of the above.
But then again, if you don't belong to PAMPA, **why not?**
Dan
SQ8’S
Scott Riese
Well, now Scott and I may have a disagreement, too! 20 ft high bottoms get hit the same regardless of who it is or what class they are in. You don't want to change your standards based on what they are *expected* to do - just on what they actually do.
20 foot bottoms are probably -10 to -12 points all by themselves. That means that if someone does a *perfect* set of triangles, the right size, with perfect precision, but 20 feet off the ground, that's a 28 or so. Of course, it's not likely that the rest of it is perfect, so it could easily get into the low 20's or teens. Doesn't matter who does it.
>An expert flyer…..Huuummmm if
>it’s Walker 33,If it’s Brett….27…..lol
Yes, but in that case, I'm sure it's justified.
Brett
Your telling me if a BEGINNER does a 20' bottom is going to get the same score as an Expert???? RULE book say's "yes". HOWEVER, we are judges. AKA. JUDGE the flight with in the guide lines of the rule book. I think Doug Moon has hit on this several times.
I know where your going and I know where this post is going.
Scott(I thot I saw a puddy cat)Riese
Scott Riese
If a beginner does the same maneuver, they get the same score. "Targeting" scores is definitively wrong. The reason experts usually get a higher score is that they usually do a better maneuver, not that they are experts.
This is a vitally important point. If Joe Stunt Hero flies inverted with 2 small corrections, he should get a 34. If a guy you never heard of in intermediate flies inverted with no corrections, he gets a 40.
You shouldn't target scores, and the same mistake gets the same deduction regardless of who it is, when they fly, or what class they are in. To do otherwise completely corrupts the event.
Not that it's easy to do, but you really have to be willing to give anybody any score on any maneuver.
>I know where your going and I know where this post is going.
Well, that puts you one up on me!
Brett
Because you weight the errors more based on how many possible errors there can be. Not too many errors possible in inverted flight, so a big correction might be -5 and a small one might be -3. You have to come up with a way of using the full range of 10-40, and you have to come up with a way of distinguishing between a big error and a small error. That's why error counting, per se, really doesn't work.
Brett
No problem. To get pattern points, you have perform all elements of each maneuver in sequence, to enter and exit the maneuvers as shown, do two laps between maneuvers, and finish (from starting signal to wheel stop) in 8 minutes. Basically, as long as it seems to show the right number of direction changes, you will generally get pattern points. That the maneuvers might have a lot of other errors, like the bottoms too high, or close to unrecognizable shapes, but that should only hurt the maneuver scores. There's definitely some judgement involved in particularly bad cases, but it's really not that variable.
Dan is exaggerating a minor difference of opinion that Mr. Cook and I have, but I don't think Dave and I would disagree on this particular topic. If you are concerned about it, get someone who has experience watch your flight and they can easily tell you how you are doing, and if you are doing something wrong.
Brett
Some scenarios:
First: During the flight pattern you're coming up on the horizontal square 8's. As you start the first vertical climb or finish the first inside loop, you realize you've caught the wind incorrectly. You bail out of the maneuver, do a lap or two, and then do the horizontal square 8's. You finish the pattern as per rules. Do you get points for the horizontal 8's, get no points for the horizontal 8's? And since you've done the maneuvers in sequence (the whole maneuver anyway) do you or don't you get pattern points?
Second: As above, except, your bail out is caused by a low flying flight of birds entering the circle, or the flyer on the adjacent circle is wandering into your flying space.??
Third: This time, you're doing the pattern, but forget to do the horizontal square 8's. Before starting the four leaf clover, you realize your error. You figure you'd better do that maneuver before the 4 leaf clover, as doing it after the 4 leaf clover could be risking attention to your flight. So, you insert the horizontal 8's before the 4 leaf clover and finish as per rules. Now, I would understand that you lose pattern points as you did the maneuvers out of sequence. However, you did do all the maneuvers, are you going to get points for the horizontal 8's?
Fourth: Is there any way a flyer can be "maneuver scored" for a maneuver missed during the regular sequence of the pattern, but flown after the 4 leaf clover? Again, understanding loss of pattern points due to maneuver sequence error.
I'm curious to know if a maneuver is left out, is there some way it can be made up and scored, understanding loss of pattern points due to sequence error.
Chip
>Locally, from time to time, these questions have come up
>during a practice session.
>
>Some scenarios:
>
>First: During the flight pattern you're coming up on the
>horizontal square 8's. As you start the first vertical climb
>or finish the first inside loop, you realize you've caught
>the wind incorrectly. You bail out of the maneuver, do a lap
>or two, and then do the horizontal square 8's. You finish
>the pattern as per rules. Do you get points for the
>horizontal 8's, get no points for the horizontal 8's? And
>since you've done the maneuvers in sequence (the whole
>maneuver anyway) do you or don't you get pattern points?
The maneuver was started but not completed. This is an incomplete maneuver which is explained in the rulebook (Paragraph 11) and pattern points will be lost. The maneuver was attempted, the minimum score of 10 points will be given. (Paragraph 11.2)
>Second: As above, except, your bail out is caused by a low
>flying flight of birds entering the circle, or the flyer on
>the adjacent circle is wandering into your flying space.??
This gets into the area where the Event Director and/or Contest Director needs to be involved. A Contest Director has the authority to rule in this situation that the flight that was disrupted due to circumstances beyond the control of the contestant can be canceled and the contestant will be allowed to make another flight. The flight that was canceled is just that, it should not be even called an attempt.
>Third: This time, you're doing the pattern, but forget to do
>the horizontal square 8's. Before starting the four leaf
>clover, you realize your error. You figure you'd better do
>that maneuver before the 4 leaf clover, as doing it after
>the 4 leaf clover could be risking attention to your flight.
>So, you insert the horizontal 8's before the 4 leaf clover
>and finish as per rules. Now, I would understand that you
>lose pattern points as you did the maneuvers out of
>sequence. However, you did do all the maneuvers, are you
>going to get points for the horizontal 8's?
>
Our AMA rules allow the maneuver to be scored, regardless the sequence where it appeared. The maneuver should be scored for how well it was performed. It should not receive the automatic 10 point minimum unless it was flown very badly or was not completed as described by the rule book. Pattern points will be lost as the maneuver was out of sequence (Paragraph 11). By the way, the contestant has already brought "attention to" the flight. I do not know if there is a best way to help the judges with what they saw. Judges are used to seeing a maneuver, then write a score for the maneuver that should have been flown in sequence. Personally, as a judge, it seems best that if a maneuver is missed, fly the rest of the pattern in sequence, then fly the missed maneuver after the four leaf clover. It is easier for me as a judge to keep track of the score sheet that way during the flight. But there is no specific rule to cover this situation.
>Fourth: Is there any way a flyer can be "maneuver scored"
>for a maneuver missed during the regular sequence of the
>pattern, but flown after the 4 leaf clover? Again,
>understanding loss of pattern points due to maneuver
>sequence error.
>
See the above response.
>I'm curious to know if a maneuver is left out, is there some
>way it can be made up and scored, understanding loss of
>pattern points due to sequence error.
See the above response.
One more comment. These responses are based on the AMA rules. FAI rules are entirely different.
Keith
But why compete right now if you aint gonna stand a chance?
Some ideas:
Wingover: Keep it up there untill you can do the first half (going inverted) wintout having to do any corrections, I mea, you shoud be able to put it in a straight lever inverted flight.
Once you can do that without having to fix it ("uh-oh, it;s goin up", or worst uh-oh it's goin' down) you can start going to 15 feet then to 10, and finally to 5 feet.
At 20 feet you can afford to let it dive some 5 feet before you get it right, but not if you're oulling it at 5 feet.
I found out thet the trick is to be relaxed. don't get uptight and the tendency is to out it right.
Loops are also tracherous, but if you can make them round enough you can star doing the lower.
The horizontal 8's are very dangerous!
If you don't place it pretty darn right on the wind you are prone to get in big trouble.
I used to practice 8's doing lazy eights. little by little I'd make them rounder, untill the bgecame horizontal 8's, the only diference is that you start on the left loop.
Ion
Jim Thomerson
If you're going to drive 2 hours*, might as well enter!
>We are getting better so I hope Walker and Brett and all the
>boys are getting ready to move over!hahahaha!
Any time my name gets in the same sentence with Paul's I feel better about myself!
Brett
*2 hours - pfft! If I want to practice during the week, I have to drive at least 2 hours 1-way to Napa, through some of the worst traffic in the Bay Area.
Randy Powell
edit: OK, so I should read all the posts before opening my yap.
I know you know what you meant, but you are not completely clear. Simply ATTEMPTING every maneuver doesn't cut it. This is a very common misunderstanding. Just because you do some sort of wiggle and maybe get a 10 on the maneuver DOES NOT mean you get pattern points. You have to ATTEMPT and COMPLETE every maneuver. This sometimes involved some judgement on the part of the judges (hence the title Judge), Generally, you have to make all the direction changes that constitute the maneuver even if they are all over the place.
For instance, if you take a stab at the 4-leaf, only complete three loops and then fly out of it, you get a 10 for the maneuver but you have lost pattern points.
This came up at the first-ever Intermediate event at the NATs - and even some of the organizers seemed to not understand it.
Brett
"Gee I think you got it" The Judge CAN make up his own mind on HOW the manouver should be scored.
EXAMPLE. You once scored me a 40pt Landing.
Christ Cox scored the same landing 25 pt.
You said "GREAT LANDING"
CHRIS said " your flying in "Advanced" your highest points should never be over 30. It knock me out of First Place. Dang Canadan.
ANYWAY. Judgement is the "KEY" from the Judges. I could go on and on but I'm doing Tissue tonight.
Scott(GO MARS)Riese:7
Scott Riese
Wow. The highest points anybody can get on any maneuver, regardless what class is being flown, is 40. If a Beginner, or Intermediate or Advanced flyer performs a good maneuver, he or she should be given a good score, irrespective of the class. To do otherwise is wrong. There is nothing in the rules that would even suggest otherwise. Yes, average scores for an entire pattern for these categories normally fall within a certain range as shown in the rulebook, but those scores do not dictate any limit for a score that can be given for any individual maneuver.
Keith
Wow, indeed.
I repeat, any pilot may and deserves to get the full range of scores on any maneuver.
Brett
>I know you know what you meant, but you are not
>completely clear. Simply ATTEMPTING every maneuver doesn't
>cut it. This is a very common misunderstanding. Just because
>you do some sort of wiggle and maybe get a 10 on the
>maneuver DOES NOT mean you get pattern points. You have to
>ATTEMPT and COMPLETE every maneuver. This sometimes involved
>some judgement on the part of the judges (hence the title
>Judge), Generally, you have to make all the direction
>changes that constitute the maneuver even if they are all
>over the place.
Which is why in the next sentence I wrote was: "Do them all in order and in something resembling the rule book and you get 25 pattern points."
10 points for making an attempt. The 25 points at the end comes if your attempts actually resemble the rule book.
Randy Powell
I am replying after the fact here and am amused at the variety of responses. As you can see different people, if judging, will judge you differently. But those who respond that you judge the maneuver, not the skill level in which you are flying are correct, as are those who state that you deduct for the height error only. Now, there is another factor here, and that is that if you are flying the correct size maneuver you will receive a deduction for improper height at the top as well as at the bottom.
I have often recommend (and still do) that while learning, you fly your bottom at a higher level than the "prescribed" 5 feet. If you were to go to Indianapolis and start practicing to be a race car driver, the best track for the highest speed is going to take you to within one or two feet of the wall in each turn. I don't think anybody would recommend that for a beginner, however, and the same should be said for our sport. You are absolutely correct in starting (and intending to end) your maneuvers at a higher than the "prescribed" level. And, as expected, you will miss on most occasions. But if you miss by five or ten feet (low) and start at 15 feet you will still be flying and can go on to complete your next maneuver.
Now the tops, make the maneuvers a little smaller at first. Maybe use a 50 degree instead of a 45 degree top. It won't be much, and at a contest won't be greatly noticed. In fact, by doing that you can still keep the top of the vertical eight at the top of the circle and keep the bottom and top loops approximately equal. That will score much better than unequal size loops or having every point off.
Yes, you will lose points. Yes, you should lost points. But once you have the maneuvers down with some reasonable degree of success, you can gradually bring them down to "normal" height and complete the flight without being afraid (with some justification) that you are going to crash at every bottom.
The first order of business is to always plan to bring the airplane home alive. Do not push your limits beyond what you are capable of (with the exception that you do have to learn certain maneuvers, and, at first, just learning to fly level or inverted can lead to crashes.)
Leonard Neumann
I agree to this statment. RULE 101 See Above.
Next NOW that I'm sucked in on Judging, Please new guys and new contest flyers WE do this for FUN, there is NO Cutthroat in control line contests. NONE. We have contests to fly model planes, to meet people and have a good time. This is a good way to learn and hobnob with experts like Brett, Ted, and Paul. All flyers can learn from each other. One thing in mind, We all get along because we do this for FUN.
Scott(that's a 37pt manouver)Riese
Scott Riese
Jim
ANYWAY. Judgement is the "KEY" from the Judges. I could go on and on but I'm doing Tissue tonight.
Scott(GO MARS)Riese:7
Scott Riese
Having had the great misfortune of hanging around with Chris Cox and Family over the years, there simply has to have been a monstrous miscommunication here. Chris is an excellent judge, along with being an excellent coach.
It would be very much in character for Chris, having been asked about a variance in scoring, to blow it off with a statement exactly like that with which he has been attributed. Would it literally be true? Of course not.
Dan
Hey, I'll judge with you anytime. The entertainment value alone...
Randy Powell
I thought we agreed to keep our substandard judging practices a secret.
Mr. Trostle gets all edgy when he hears about the sort of stuff we pulled in Arlington last year. He's a military man, you know, and not the sort to blindly accept rabble such as you and I as being serious.
Cyberwho? is really gonna be mad when he sees our responses to a very serious issue upon which the entire future of CL Stunt is dependent. So quit egging me on, will ya?
Or maybe I will egg you on: Seen the third "Lord of the Rings" movie yet? My son and I have over the past couple weekends revisited the first two installments a couple times each, Wednesday evening will go to see the final film. Unless they do the prequel, of course.
And in the future, will you please not attempt contacting me by phone or e-mail or even by dropping by the van at a contest? Instead, save it all for this forum.
Dan
Well, you do sorta look like the guy Aragorn hires in the cave.
I promise to studiously avoid you during future gatherings. Probably better from my reputation anyway.
Randy Powell
If you blab the plot of N.3 I will have to put CyberCatHerder on your case.
Show Time is 4:15 this afternoon for son and I.
Dan
I won't blab. But I will say you should like it. Lots of violence and drama. And the catapult scenes are really quite incredible.
Randy Powell
OK. Have fun.
Sorry for the tangential thoughts.
Randy Powell
It would be very much in character for Chris, having been asked about a variance in scoring, to blow it off with a statement exactly like that with which he has been attributed. Would it literally be true? Of course not.
Dan
You were in a cast and back in WASHINGTON. Chris and I talked about the landing and I did see his point. ALSO He is an EXCELLENT JUDGE and a good guy. SO when you bark, make sure that know.
Scott(Go let the cat in )Riese
Scott Riese
>
>Scott(Go let the cat in )Riese
Gracious, Scott! It would so help things along if you both read and comprehend what is being said.
But if absolute and complete accuracy is your goal:
I did not claim to be a witness to this incident, nor did I have to be there. I was speaking from a standpoint of knowing Chris very well, being able to accurately interpret what transpired. And so I did.
You had cast the judging abilities of one Chris Cox in a negative light, and I was not about to let it slide.
I was never in a cast, have never once worn a cast.
Let me know if there is anything else you need to have cleared up. You know, in the interests of accuracy as to the facts and/or clear communications.
Dan (Sheesh, what a nag you can be!) Rutherford
Scott(chris's would be 50 lower)Riese:+
Scott Riese
OH BTW There was never a NEGATIVE on Chris Cox He's one of the good guy's in stunt and we all like him......even though he's from that other place. C eh N eh D eh.
Scott Riese
.