West Systems fillets

Randy Powell said he was using West Systems epoxy and fillers to make his fillets on his new ship. Here in Dallas Doug, John, and Steve have all used West Systems epoxy so I knew the stuff was awesome. I found a local source and bought a quart of 105 resin and the 205 hardener.

Randy used the "fllet" filler, so I bought some of that. I simply could not resist the "microlight filler" as the huge jar felt as though it was empty, it simply had no weight.

I made up a test fillet by gluing some scrap at 90 degree angles. I mixed up some filler. By accident I mixed the microlight first. I never noticed frankly. The stuff is simply the best fillet mix I have ever used. The working time is about an hour, so you could do an entire airplane witrh one batch. I applied the stuff in to the 90 degree with a popsicle stick (standard fillet radius don't you know, scraped off the excess with a single edge razor blade, smoothed once with a dry pinky, and done! The stuff slicks over so nice, it is almost shiny.

Needless to say the weight is almost nothing...

Sanded it this morning before I went to work. Sanded nicely with 320.

I also made up a sample of the resin. I mixed it using the pumps, and left it set in the cup overnight. It is so hard it almost chips. Definately not like hobby epoxies. Great stuff...

Hey Lizard, What Primer are you going to use? Do you Tissue over the fillets? Will dope stick to the fillets?

Scott(keep up the great work)Riese

>Hey Lizard, What Primer are you going to use? Do you Tissue
>over the fillets? Will dope stick to the fillets?

I use gray lacquer primer surfacer over fillets.

No tisse over fillets.

No PC over fillets.

Don't use dope, sorry.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-04 AT 11:46 AM (CDT)
 
Brad,

I told you so. (always wanted to say that )

I love this stuff. First time in my life I did fillets, cleaned them up, sanded and proceeded with finish and never had any fillet problems whatsoever. No bubbles, no adhesion problems, no woggies of any kind. Amazing stuff and as you note, it doesn't weigh much.

I'm sold. 105 resin, 205 hardner and the 405 microlight fillet material. Only note is, be careful of the container you mix it in. The first time I used it, I used an unwaxed paper cup that was sort of tall and narrow. While the fillets took a full 24 hours to cure, the stuff in the cup started getting hot in about 15 minutes and was unworkable in 20 minutes. Apparently, too much mass too close. The second time, I used a shallow, somewhat wide glass container. The stuff was workable for an hour and not really hard for 2 hours. And didn't get hot at all. Keep the material spread out a bit to give yourself longer working time.

Only real caution is, be precise in your mixing. The pumps really help. The stuff is pretty tempremental about getting the quantites of resin and hardener right and being very thoroughly mixed.

>I told you so. (always wanted to say that )

Shoooottttt.... I never doubted you for a minute. If Randy says it, it's gospel!!!

>I love this stuff. First time in my life I did fillets,
>cleaned them up, sanded and proceeded with finish and never
>had any fillet problems whatsoever. No bubbles, no adhesion
>problems, no woggies of any kind. Amazing stuff and as you
>note, it doesn't weigh much.
>
>I'm sold. 105 resin, 205 hardner and the 405 microlight
>fillet material.

Also of note. The 405 microlight is super duper light, maybe lighter than Sig microballoons. The really cool thing however is the texture. Sig microballoons always made bumpy, gritty looking fillets. This stuff makes a smooth, creamy looking paste that looks like Peter Pan peanut butter. It flows out so much better when applied. It skinns over beautifully in a matter of seconds. I saw no need for the "wet finger" later.

Only note is, be careful of the container
>you mix it in. The first time I used it, I used an unwaxed
>paper cup that was sort of tall and narrow. While the
>fillets took a full 24 hours to cure, the stuff in the cup
>started getting hot in about 15 minutes and was unworkable
>in 20 minutes. Apparently, too much mass too close. The
>second time, I used a shallow, somewhat wide glass
>container. The stuff was workable for an hour and not really
>hard for 2 hours. And didn't get hot at all. Keep the
>material spread out a bit to give yourself longer working
>time.

Good advice, I saw the same thing. In a cups it kicks at the precise rate as stated on the can or maybe even faster. Spread out on a coffee can lid it stays soft much longer.

>Only real caution is, be precise in your mixing. The pumps
>really help. The stuff is pretty tempremental about getting
>the quantites of resin and hardener right and being very
>thoroughly mixed.

I got the pumps. Very cool. Thanks Randy!!!!

>>Shoooottttt.... I never doubted you for a minute. If Randy says it, it's gospel!!!<<

At least this time. At other points, well, it seemed right at the time.

Only problem is you have to spend $50.00 just to get started. Or did I miss smaller quantities?

LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-04 AT 12:35 PM (CDT)
 
>Only problem is you have to spend $50.00 just to get
>started. Or did I miss smaller quantities?

That is about right.

I spent $80. I got the resin, hardener, pump kit, brushes, microlight filler, and fillet filler.

The resin and hardener should last a couple three years.

Think I will stick with Aeropoxy, sounds like the West Systems stuff is easier but for the difference in price I can afford to take a little more time and care with my fillets.

I really have not had a problem with Aeropoxy or Epoxolite for that matter but one does have to know the tricks and it is a pain.

>Think I will stick with Aeropoxy, sounds like the West
>Systems stuff is easier but for the difference in price I
>can afford to take a little more time and care with my
>fillets.
>
>I really have not had a problem with Aeropoxy or Epoxolite
>for that matter but one does have to know the tricks and it
>is a pain.

Sure, but I think you are missing the big picture.

There are no epoxies on the market like West Systems. It replaces all of the epoxies you use, and it is better. It is low viscosity so it wets fiberlglass and carbon like a dream (no need for finishing resin), it is great for fuel proofing and sealing wood, and mixed with the proper filler it makes any kind of epoxy from JB Weld, to Aeropoxy, all with assured strength, longevity, compatability and ease of use.

They even have a 5 minute that I plan to get when mine runs out.
I think in the long run it justa large quantity, but the price is about the same or less than hobby epoxies.

There stuff is awesome!!!! Sure it costs more, it is better. My motto is always buy the best (if possible) you will always be satisfied.

Took ya long enough!

It is a good system.

You can put dope over it. Just be sure to remove the amine blush after cure with alcohol or water. sand it lightly to dull and put the dope on.

The shallow container thing is standard fare for exothermic mixes. They will all go faster if the heat is confined.

Beware also, per my advice in the SN product review, that the microlight filler is slightly thermo-plastic. If used under dark colors, and in the sun, they will soften enough to take a fingernail indentation--I havent had any problem on my large fillets however. It doesnt get any softer than 4-6 lb balsa thats for sure.

It keeps for a long time. And will replace every type epoxy you might ever use in our model building pursuits. Lamintes well, fillets well, good for glass and carbon wet-out, etc. And its pure, no filler, epoxy.

Great product and excellent application information and tech support.

FWIW

Brad,

Maybe all that excess material won't burden you so if you help me with my fillets. If I use 1/80 of your material, I would even reimburse you the buck for proportional use of your material.

Brad,

>>If I use 1/80 of your material, I would even reimburse you the buck for proportional use of your material.<<

Ooo, that was definately a shot.

>Brad,
>
>>>If I use 1/80 of your material, I would even reimburse you the buck for proportional use of your material.<<
>
>Ooo, that was definately a shot.

Nah.... Al loooovvvvveeessss me....

Bob: I'll go in halfsies with ya if we can find some cans to split it into
Otherwise, I'll eventually have to spend the money, hide it from the other half and enjoy beautiful fillies, er, I mean fillets

I did check and we have a dealer here in Tulsa, West Marine 4317-A S. Sheridan, 665-2101. Will see what I can figure out on what to split up and in what? Still thinking about this whole deal.

I am ready to do the fillets on the Skylark and have everything laid out ready to attack the Aeropoxy, do I really want to wait another couple of days to do the fillets, what if they don't have the stuff in stock... Decisions... decisions..... decisions

>I did check and we have a dealer here in Tulsa, West Marine
>4317-A S. Sheridan, 665-2101.

I bought my stuff at West Marine in Dallas.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-04 AT 02:43 PM (CDT)
 
Bob,

I'm told it is also sold in pints and half pints, but I've never seen it that way. I bought mine at a very large, Walmart-ish boat supply place. I think the 105 was something like $23 for a quart and the 205 was about $19 a quart. I got 2 of the 105 and one of the 205 (It is 2 to 1 mix). The 405 Microlight fillet maker was about eight bucks. The pumps were more expensive than they were worth. Something like $20 for the a package of 4. but as 'zilla says, 2 quarts of 105 and 1 of 205 will last a very, very, very long time.

But hey, we all use what we like and what we are used to.

Capt is right. West Systems has replaced all my other epoxies. And it's acutally pretty economical. I've built 3 CF gears, 2 CF cowls, 4 pairs of CF motor mounts, one molded CF top block, made fillets for one plane and used it for all the regular sort of stuff for 2 planes and used about a quarter of a can of the 105. Really good stuff.

Oh, and you can post cure it. I put my CF gear made with 105/205 in a home-made post cure oven. It makes for some very stiff gear.

The stuff is really good value because its shelf life seems to be forever and you never end up discarding unused stuff that's got tired (I know, you prolific builders don't have that problem). I had some around for years one time and when I mixed up a batch after the several year hiatus, it kicked just like it did on day one. Great stuff.

Lee Valley Tools also carries it, at least in Canada, so you can order it online.

Best, Hoovie

How do you manage the pumps?
I mean, do you take them off the cans and reseal?
Or leave them in place, full of goop?
Or what?

Thanks,
Preston

I just leave them in the can as you say 'full of goop'. Never had any problem that way even if they sat for years.

Best, Hoovie

I find the pumps meter more resin than I need for most modeling jobs. For laminating, fillets and CF layups I use my triple beam balance; for small jobs I use 1ml syringes. These syringes may be reused- I've been using the same pair for more than six months. Wipe off the excess resin (and hardener) and store them in (separate) ziplock bags. http://www.qosina.com/catalog/part.asp?partno=C3302
Derek Moran

I've been using a "Finish Cure" epoxy with microbaloons for a long time. Dries hard as a rock but has a sheen that must be sanded ala 320. A small set/pair of bottles lasts for half a dozen airplanes.A 50 /50 mix is easy to see much less measure. The key is to sand before the finish or primer coats to establish a little "tooth" and it does sand nicely within 24 hours. Just as important is make sure you have no bubbles. Thinning this stuff for fillets is a no no so keep the bottle cap on your alcohol and dip your shaping tool in thinner with each stroke as you spread. No it is not West Systems but virtually every signature brand has a "Finish Cure" type resin epoxy.

John

>I've been using a "Finish Cure" epoxy with microbaloons for
>a long time.

I think the real secret is the West Systems filler. It is different that regular microballoons.

Aha...

https://www.cstsales.com/Epoxy_&_Molding/west-system.htm
https://www.cstsales.com/Epoxy_&_Molding/west_system_fillers_and_additives.htm

This must be the "filleting blend" (#405).

On another note - I have a can of their colloidal silica (#406) - it seems lighter than microballoons. I use it instead of microballoons, and it makes a smooth paste, too. But I notice if it ever gets into the air it hangs around like smoke, and I wonder if you'd get silicosis from breathing it in.

The colloidal silica is the generic name for Cab-o-sil. This is the thickener/flow enhancer used in everythin from milkshakes to dry soup, to thixotropic additive for resins.

It adds little to no strength as the milled fibers do, but thickens the material to prevent run-out.

The microlight material not a micro-sphere material as in micro balloons (glass) or the brown mix which is generally phenolic micro-spheres.

>
>Only real caution is, be precise in your mixing. The pumps
>really help. The stuff is pretty tempremental about getting
>the quantites of resin and hardener right and being very
>thoroughly mixed.
>
>

Randy Powell

just a reiteration on this word of caution... the pumps are not always accurate enough. particularily in the small batches we would use in model building. I've used a LOT of West epoxy in full size homebuilt airplanes and in full size wooden boats. Perhaps the pump chamber gets an air bubble or the "user" doesn't give one of the pumps a full stroke or the viscosity keeps the pump from reaching the top of the chamber between multiple strokes. In any case, don't trust the pumps for small batches. Either use a measuring device of some sort or (my preference)mix by weight. A postage (or "diet") scale works fine. I set the mixing cup on the scale then use the pump to squirt the exact amount into the cup as registered by the weight.

Also, one stroke of each pump may give a lot more epoxy than you need. That's an expensive waste...

Get the shape you want before the "green" cure and remove any excess overhanging edges when the stuff has cured to a 'green' state. It will be sort of rubbery but not "sticky" feeling and will cut cleanly and easily in this state without sticking to your tools. Note: it can't be shaped in the green state. Depending on which hardner you've used this will take different amounts of time. It will continue to harden over night and reaches full strength after several days

Oh by the way while I'm at it... There is another brand of epoxies y'all should look into: "System Three". They make a broad range of products and dispensers. Very,very good stuff! The working time of your mixed batch can be extended by placing the mixing cup (after mixing) in ice. A mixed batch with filler in it will "kick" much quicker than you might expect in the contained space of the mixing cup. And one more caution: the "5 minute" stuff doesn't form as good a bond as the slow cure stuff.

Randy has obviously used this material alot--many of the same applications as myself. Everything he has noted is absolutely correct.

I might add that the stroke of the pumps can be modified by disassembling them and making longer stop tubes. these are the regular condiment pumps one can get from gordon foods or other resturant suppliers--with a stroke limiter installed.

I use the syringe solution for small batches. even to the degree of mixing five drops of resin to one drop of hardener.

System three is very similar to WEST.

THere is no connection between West Marine and WEST Epoxy (Gougeon Brothers)

FWIW

Are you saying this stuff is mixed by weight or volume? There is a difference. 5 parts to one by weight is generally not 5 parts to one by volume.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-04 AT 09:48 AM (CDT)
 
By volume. If I recall from their literature, it is also 5-1 by wgt also.

Try this--its their main site.

http://www.westepoxy.com/

Capt,

I've mixed it by weight without a problem for small quantities. As noted, a full stroke of the pump is, by and large, too much for most applications (other than laying stuff up or fillets or whatever). I just use a small, digital scale.

Yes, I just went to their site and found the following--I was sure it was 5-1 either weight or volume.

Dispensing without Mini Pumps (Weight/volume measure) - To measure 105 Resin and 205 or 206
Hardener by weight or volume, combine five parts resin with one part hardener.

>By volume. If I recall from their literature, it is also
>5-1 by wgt also.
>
>
>Try this--its their main site.
>
>http://www.westepoxy.com/
>
>Curt

and by the way here is the System three home page
http://www.systemthree.com/index_2.asp

Glad to see Randy mention "System Three" and then for Ron to furnish the path to see their offerings.

I was still flying Combat when first coming across System Three epoxy, like it so much that when there is talk concerning the epoxy-of-the-week I just grin and turn the page.

Excellent products, worth whatever they are currently charging. (I haven't had to actually buy anything from them for a couple years.)

I have been using the technique Randy mentions for doing fillets with System Three and am using SIG micro-balloons. There may be a better way, and better materials, but I am not aware of them.

All of my measuring of epoxy is done by weight and on an old-fashioned triple-beam gram scale. Some have told me the exact ratio is not critical, others--primarily the techs at System Three--say to get it right. I take the vendor's advice and have never had any problems whatsoever.

While this may not be unique, System Three offers hardeners in three different ranges. I generally use the fastest, still an over-nighter for laminating ply to nose of fuselage, but have the other two on the shelf.

The System Three folks did a good job of going to school on the Gougeon products. The lines and products are extremely similar in material, application, performance etc.

I can definitely relate to the grin and turn the page...once ya find a system that works, don't fix it!

>I have been using the technique Randy mentions for doing
>fillets with System Three and am using SIG micro-balloons.
>There may be a better way, and better materials, but I am
>not aware of them.

I think the West Microlight filler compared Sig Micro balloons is like comparing baby powder to gravel. You should try some.

Dan,

You should give a try to the West Systems 405 fillet material. System Three epoxy is great stuff and you can certainly use that. But the 405 material is considerably different from any sort of micro-balloons. I've used both Sig and other's micro-balloons and the 405 material is, to me at least, superior.

Incidentally, is any of this stuff good for molding glass/carbon propellers?

Isky,

Hmm, I probably wouldn't use 405 microlight filler to make props. Somehow, I just don't see that as being a good idea.

Isky,

I would NOT use this stuff for props. It is not that strong and will not hold up under the pressure. Epon is the stuff of choice for props.

I have a question for the epoxy experts. I have been using West for along time now. I use 105 resin and 209 24 hr hardener. The hardeners ave a date on the can. I have noticed that it takes longer and longer for the hardener to work. I have had these cans for three years. My question is do the hardeners go bad or loose their hardening power? My stuff still hardens up just fine and is as strong as ever it just takes longer to react. Any ideas??

Thanks

I wouldn't call myself an epoxy expert, but the folks at Gougeon ARE.

Get the straight answer--call their tech support line. They are very good about answering questions.

www.westepoxy.com

I also have some stuff that is several years old but never noticed any quantifiable difference in cure time.

FWIW

I had some West Systems stuff that wouldn't harden at all. It was about 3 years old, but it wasn't the fault of the epoxy. Says right on the can not to let it freeze.

There are several other epoxy systems that are avaailable that might work for our useage. System Three has several different types that use different hardeners. A few years ago System Three bought out a company here in Vancouver called Industrial Formulators. Their epoxys were state of the art for all sorts of applications. The couple that started the company were both chemical engineers with backgrounds in polymer chemistry. Unfortunately they knew nothing abut running business. System Three markets a product with the IF name of 51 cure that is almost indentical to West System 105 with 206 hardener. Somewhat cheaper though. Also you can do a Google search for an epoxy with the name RAKA. Good stuff for boatbuiilding and quite inexpensive. The smallest container for West System 105 resin is in quarts and West is the most expensive of all the systems. Shelf life for West system epoxy if kept at normal room temps and away from light is 2-3 years. Pumps should be cleaned with lacquer thinner every year. Mix small batches by 5 to 1 weight on your gram scale.

Hi Alan,

I use West Systems mainly because 1) it works and 2) it's very available in my area. And I like the stuff. The boat place I buy it at is about 5 minutes from my office...walking.

No ideas as to why, but I'll bet some heat would speed the cure

Always Does.

When my shop is at 65 deg, I usually warm the mixed epoxy a little to decrease the viscosity. Also try to bring the parts up to high room temp.

If you cure in an oven or warm room (aka--sun) etc. the parts will be workable in less time.

I have found this to be true of all epoxies.

Here is an idea, why doesn't some enterprising modeler buy this stuff in larger quantities, repackage it into smaller containers and re-sell it at a profit. This way the turn over will keep it fresh, the average modeler won't have to spend $50.00 just to get started and everybody is happy....

That thought has actually crossed my mind since I buy the stuff at wholesale price. What kind of quantities and prices would you think appropriate? Also, kits of material with the fillers included? or all a la carte?

Anyone that would be interested in a small starter kit? email me direct so I can get an idea.

I could do this in a few days if anyone is interested.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-04 AT 09:03 AM (CDT)
 
4 ounces is a nice number, plenty of containers available and divides into most large quantities evenly.

PS: I would email you but think I will bite the bullet and spend the $50.00 today, hopfully I can find one or two in the club that wants to split the buy.

My problem is using it withen 3 years, I have a 4 ounce set of 30 min epoxy that is almost 2 years old and my Areopoxy is close to the same age, both are about half used. Out of this I have built two stunt ships and 3 or 4 profiles.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-04 AT 09:14 AM (CDT)
 
>PS: I would email you but think I will bite the bullet and
>spend the $50.00 today, hopfully I can find one or two in
>the club that wants to split the buy.

Bob,
I can't let Mitch be the only club member to split this with you. Put me down for 4 oz.

I think Mitch buys all his stuff in 1 oz quanities.
Something to do with old habits