What to do, what to do........

Topic: Advancement through classes
Problem: "Booted" fliers not moving up
Solution: ???????????
Bill <><

Topic: Advancement through classes
Problem: "Booted" fliers not moving up
Solution: ???????????

solution #1 Get a bigger boot???????

Solution #2. Get better yourself and go around them. Been working on this myself, but have not gotten around anybody yet. Breaking the yellow Nobler didn't help my chances of beating anyone.....

I guess a CD can move somebody as he sees fit, but that might also get some people mad or have political reprecussions.

I guess it depends on the individualm pilot. Most people, after enough wins, are not going to feel very heroic about collecting another trophy and may become restless enough to move up.

Steve

ps those that sell their airplanes may be stuck where they are for awhile, at least till they build a new one!!!!!!

Hi Steve and Bill:

Sorry to hear you busted up the Nobler. Man that thing flew well!

People have different motivations for competing and are rewarded by different things.

Myself, the measure of my success is the level of competitor for whom I become a "concern". The mission is to become good enough so the good fliers look over their shoulders once in a while! The placings will come as a result.

Just me.

"Sorry to hear you busted up the Nobler. Man that thing flew well!"

I think I can fix it, the inboard wing broke inflight at the root but did not come off. I just have to come up with a repair scheme that will work. With luck the Nobler will ride again.

Capt,

Yea, my goal is for the flyers ahead of me(that's pretty much everybody) to at least briefly consider the possibility that I might give them some slight competition. Hasn't happened yet, but I have high hopes.

>Topic: Advancement through classes
>Problem: "Booted" fliers not moving up
>Solution: ???????????
>
>
>
>solution #1 Get a bigger boot???????

MY "boot" is BIG enough, but that wouldn't work now, would it?? LOL!!!!

>Solution #2. Get better yourself and go around them. Been
>working on this myself, but have not gotten around anybody
>yet. Breaking the yellow Nobler didn't help my chances of
>beating anyone.....

At least you are going to have to move up to a "REAL" plane for Advanced now!!
Probably the ONLY solution.

>I guess a CD can move somebody as he sees fit, but that
>might also get some people mad or have political
>reprecussions.

Would NEVER happen, anyway.

>I guess it depends on the individualm pilot. Most people,
>after enough wins, are not going to feel very heroic about
>collecting another trophy and may become restless enough to
>move up.

>Steve
>
>ps those that sell their airplanes may be stuck where they
>are for awhile, at least till they build a new one!!!!!!

Yeah, but I do have a couple more planes, and now the money to build even more! (and better!!) LOL!! Great to see you again.

THIS IS NOT A REAL PERSONAL PROBLEM OF MINE, BUT THERE ARE CONCERNS ABOUT THIS OUT THERE. There are no real guidelines for this.

Bill <><

This is interesting to me because we have 4 local flyers, 2 in particular that are at the Advanced/Expert point (they've passed me up) and they have asked me, as a CD, if I would force a move in our local contest. My reply to both was that if you have the question but are still insecure, "stay put, BUT, if performance stays at or progresses beyond the present level based on the seasons contest results AND scores, I will move you forward next year if you don't move yourself". In both cases this reply was happily recieved. Faced with the need to move someone that was unwilling I'm afraid I'd have to make the unpopular decision to make a contestant move, at least at my contest.

Thanks to the guys that make it easy on me.

Back in my M/C racing days we used to call these guys "Cherry Pickers", I didn't like it then, and still don't.

Randy Ryan
AMA 8500
SAM 36
I fly 'em all and love it!

Bill,

Normally most flyers who are booted up and do not move need to have the Contest Directors of the next contests to encourage the flyer to move to the next class. Here in the Midwest, notorious flyers have been moved to the next class higher up by Contest Directors who have seen the flyer in the same class too much.

I have seen a few flyers quit the contest scene due to pressure to move up. They were just trophy hounds and had no intention of moving up anyway. 95% or more of the contest flyers who are encouraged to move up will do so by mere "peer" pressure.

Those that stay at one level all the time actually get beat by a new set of pilots who are intent at going up the ladder and outscore the "sandbagger". The "sandbagger" usally gets tired of the game and will move due to more "peer" pressure.

When I began flying contests in 1974, there were only the beginnings of PAMPA. I had to fly against Frank McMillan, John Davis, Norm Whittle, Lew McFarland, Ted Winterman, Jim Lynch and the like. I was always last for the first two years. Took a while to begin to see fewer and fewer "tail lights" and only a few visions in the rear view mirror.

Have a talk with the flyer and hopefully the nice conversation would encourage them to move up.

This is a continuing question, and I thought I had an answer for a while. But I'm learning. The reason I've re-thought this situation is that I've come to realize that Expert classification is just that-EXPERT! An expert is not someone who occasionally puts in a 500+ flight or even wins a few advanced trophies. He always flies well. Even on an "off" day, he'll fly high 500s. The reasons he flies well are manifold. He builds Extremely well- straight, strong, light and pretty. His equipment always works. He has tons of experience. The reason these things go so well for him is the amount of TIME he expends to make sure all this comes together at the contest. How about thirty flights every time he goes out to fly? And then flying almost every day of the week- every week- good weather or bad.... Talent goes a long way, but commitment is the main ingredient for those I consider Experts. It's difficult for anyone to find the kind of time required to be a true Expert stunt flyer, but true Experts always do. Hey! Just my thoughts. Best regards,

Dale,

Excellent post. Not everyone can be moved up. Even if they go on a win streak for while. If they truly are just good advanced pilots then there will be those coming along who will beat them in the advanced ranks until they are experts. Or they will stay at the top of the advanced ranks and do battle. People shouldnt be booted by other pilots who see them win often. They should be moved up if the judges see the flier flying out of his class. The judges are the ones who are going to see the difference in the flying. They know where the guys should be.

You could just fly all the calsses mixed up together in a random order and then seperate them on the board when posting scores. Then people will REALLY know where they stand.

Good post Dale!

Why not just move yourself up? This way, the fella that wants to stay in Advanced will be happy and you will have a new challenge! Everyone wins!

Personally, I don't care as much for trophies. For me, the journey is more fun, not the destination. I'd rather be at the bottom of class working my way UP, instead of trying to stay at the top.

you might ask folks to follow the rulebook
"para. 2. the distinction between classes should be based roughly on a contestant's scoring in the previous season"

If a contestant's average score was in the range of 400-499 for complete patterns with pattern points during the last year they should be in advanced. This is really a very relaxed standard. It is not that he "won advanced a couple of times last year". It takes a lot of improvement to raise the average of 5-10 flights from 450 to over 500. We have enough problems with keeping flyers active and don't really need to pressure people into competing harder than they really want to. Judging is so elastic that it takes quite a few flights for a flyer to really get an accurate measure of their performance. It is not at all unusual for scores to vary 20-30 points between contests and different sets of judges.

I have read this guideline but it does not seem relative to the class situation that exists today. As an example, I believe that every event I attended this past season, it would have taken 450+ to win in intermediate. people scoring consistently in the low 400's woulldn't make the top half of intermediate.

At the Nats for the last two or three years, the top 3-5 are in the 470+ range.

Doesnt this indicate that the reference guideline is not really adhered to?

Curt ( considering the jump)

>I have read this guideline but it does not seem relative to
>the class situation that exists today. As an example, I
>believe that every event I attended this past season, it
>would have taken 450+ to win in intermediate. people
>scoring consistently in the low 400's woulldn't make the top
>half of intermediate.
>
>At the Nats for the last two or three years, the top 3-5 are
>in the 470+ range.
>
>Doesnt this indicate that the reference guideline is not
>really adhered to?
>
>Curt ( considering the jump)

Using raw scores doesn't work because there's no consistency in scoring across the country. Those 450's in intermediate in your area might be 350's somewhere else - like under the regular NATs judging. The first ever Intermediate contest at the NATs exhibited this in droves. 3 circles, on two of them, the top scorer was in the 490s. On the third (Leonard and yours truly), the top scorer was 420, and the rest were in the 300s. They combined the top guys from each circle, and then had a fly-off, and I think that neither Leonard nor I were used for the flyoff. The guy who had gotten a 420 on our circle got a 490ish score and WON. He then got a free entry to Advanced later in the week, where he got a 415 or so, and failed to qualify.

This suggesting of "booting" people based on score is intrinsically faulty because of this effect. 420-490-415 on basically the same quality flight all in the same week pretty well proves the effect. That's why its a suggestion instead of a hard rule.

My advice to pilots is to just enter the class you think you should be in, and don't spend a lot of time worrying what anyone else is doing. The point is to get better, not to collect a room full of Intermediate trophies. There's no way to sandbag in expert!

> My advice to pilots is to just enter the class you think
>you should be in, and don't spend a lot of time worrying
>what anyone else is doing. The point is to get better, not
>to collect a room full of Intermediate trophies. There's no
>way to sandbag in expert!
>
> Brett

Brett, I was tring to make the same point but you phrased it MUCH better than me. Thank you.

>Topic: Advancement through classes
>Problem: "Booted" fliers not moving up
>Solution: ???????????
>Bill <><

Not the pilot's problem to solve. A polite comment to big contest CDs and/or district director is the extent of what you should engage in. But advancement is optional.

Hi Brett,

I know it's the pilot's choice to advance. I wouldn't personally worry/be concerned myself.

However, I seem to have been given a sort of inforcer/counselor role by many. To explain: I get told a lot about what is bothering people, etc.. Not sure exactly why, maybe it's my size, background, and age! LOL!! And, I don't mind it, but I do understand where many are coming from.

I moved up to Advanced when my son moved up to Intermediate. Didn't matter that I hadn't won many, if any, Inter. contests. Aaron (son) moved up when he won Intermediate Classic at Brodak's. One of us will move up to Expert soon, but it will be Aaron before me. He's better. Will he have ever won an Advanced contest when he does? Don't know, maybe, maybe not.

Phil C. was speaking to keeping pilots involved. This sandbagging is having just as detrimental an effect, maybe ,no probably, more of an effect, on the rising fliers as it would be on the sandbaggers to move up. One sandbagger vs. several "risers". Not so much in beginner. Beginners generally want to move on up and fly the whole pattern.

There is no set rule, only guidelines. And as you say, the points awarded by Judges is not consistant from area to area, not even circle to circle, nor Judge to Judge, NATS included.

So, we can have a potential dilemna. I am just looking for some ideas to tell those who ask, and what avenues to look into.

Thanks,
Bill <><

Oh yeah FWIW, one former NATS Champ, after not having picked up a handle in maybe 20 yrs., was told his first contest back that he HAD to fly Expert.

Bill <><

>Oh yeah FWIW, one former NATS Champ, after not having picked
>up a handle in maybe 20 yrs., was told his first contest
>back that he HAD to fly Expert.
>

Former NATs champs get to fly expert. 20 years of rust is nothing compared to have had the skill to win, and I expect that someone who flew on that level will take about half a flight to get his bearings and then they will *absolulely destroy* advanced fliers. It's really a lot further from hot Advanced flier to top expert than is generally recognized.

>>It's really a lot further from hot Advanced flier to top expert than is generally recognized.<<

Or mediocre advanced flyer to scum sucker expert.

>Hi Brett,
>
>I know it's the pilot's choice to advance. I wouldn't
>personally worry/be concerned myself.
>
>However, I seem to have been given a sort of
>inforcer/counselor role by many. To explain: I get told a
>lot about what is bothering people, etc.. Not sure exactly
>why, maybe it's my size, background, and age! LOL!! And, I
>don't mind it, but I do understand where many are coming
>from.

Well, I wouldn't take on a burden/task that you really can't have any control over. I hear it a lot, too, and I DO, as a PAMPA director, have a say in the matter. But I usually give people the same advice I gave you.

I can think of one case over the years where I "encouraged" someone to move up, but even then there were legitimate points of debate. It's simply not the pilot's problem, and the easiest solution to to just get better, move when you think you should, and it will eventually take care of itself. This philosophy does not result in the maximum trophy count, but it frequently does result in the most satisfaction. If anyone doesn't enjoy flying in contests unless they win a trophy, they really need to get out of it.

This topic is one of those situations where there is a clearly identified problem but no really good ideas on how to solve it despite very lengthy discussions/arguments on the topic for years. A reasonable and workable solution in this area would be quite welcome.

Well, I have solved the problem of moving up in my own way. Years ago I was a better flyer than Alan Brickhaus. However, he progressed while I stagnated and then declined. So I never made it out of Advanced, and now usually sit around the middle of the pack. Occasionally I will be less inconsistant than usual and place. Anyway I am still having fun. When people start suggesting I should MOVE DOWN, I'll probably take up sport FF.

Bill,

Go back and read Dale's post. The thnk about the saod flier who is not moving up. Are they flying good enough to be flying in the worng class or are they just at the top of the other and not really progressing any further? Just something to think about.

My personal thought is that Advanced should be the largest class by far. In INT. you learn how to fly the whole pattern in a contest format. You learn how not have over runs. You learn how to get into a contest format, enter, get pull tested, know your order ahead of time, be ready for your flight when it your turn, etc., etc.. ALso you get good enough to be confiden enough to fly the pattern without crashing. If you(general flier) fly often for a while and go to several contests you could get on from INT. pretty quickly. At this point you are an Advacned pilot with contest experience and the ability to confidently fly the pattern. In Advacned is where you make the next step at honing your skills. It should take a while maybe many seasons to get all the way to Expert status. Especially if you only fly from time to time and dont really gear up and learn the pattern like the experts before you have. Moving up to Advanced to early isnt really a problem. You will get better fast at that stage of the game. Moving to expert to early can be a bit frustrating. I remember when I was winning in Advanced(one season, usually only two to four entries then) and I would look at the board and think I had really be better be ready if I am going to duke it out with the likes of Bob Gieseke, Frank McMillan, Frank Williams, Jim Young, and few other really accomplished pilots. Their contest skills and flying abilities were so far ahead of mine I really worked hard in Advanced and won every local Advanced contest I entered. I liked winning but wanted to move up more so I did it the next season and it took two years before I got a top three and that was a win. It just so happened that two of the top guys were judging and another wasnt there so back to the end of the line for me until the next season before I started to get some good placings. I just wasnt an expert when I moved up but I could win all the Avanced I enetered. Moving up to expert is something the pilots really need to consider for a while before they make the jump. Get with the judges and see what they think of your flying and how you compare. You really cant go by the board if the classes are judged seperately. Talk with people at contests who have wathced you and others and get some feedback. But getting people to move up juts because the win some advanced isnt such a good idea. They may end up at the back of expert for a long time and end up not coming back.

Just some thoughts.

Hi Doug,

Thanks for the comments, but I'm not looking for advice as to when I should move up, I am commenting on guys who have been "booted" at Awards ceremonies at rather large contests. They just keep on staying in their class.

I want to get to Expert, myself, and could easily fly in the bottom of that class in our local contests. Right now, it wouldn't matter at all for me. Bottom of Expert vs. middle to bottom of Advanced. I don't get to practice now, but that will change in a couple years. I have won in other endeavors, and winning a trophy in stunt is just a "nice" event. Not life or death for me. Having my job depending on how a bunch of 16-18 year old guys will respond to our coaching on Friday nights is enough "competition" in my life right now.

These guys that don't move have their own reasons, I guess, but it upsets some of the other fliers. Aaron, and I, could really care less. But, as I said, I am often a confidant of the other guys, so no names are ever mentioned.

"Booting" has become a rite of passage in some areas, and it is based on how the pilot is flying. CD's are usually the ones doing the "booting", and it is felt justified.

PAMPA is wonderful to have the Class system in place. It has done wonders for Precision Aerobatics, but with the resurgence of PA, the class levels are becoming harder and harder to define. I feel it needs to be looked at.

Bill <><

We had only one entered in Intermediate, so I asked him if he'd mind being stuck into Advanced. After some complaining, he came in 4th out of about 9 fliers. Not sure if he'll go Advanced next year, but I hope so. I have seen that happen before. I've seen Dave Gardner tell a Beginner entrant at the NWCLR that he was instead flying Intermediate. A piped .46 in a full boogey stunter in Beginner...not appropriate, IMHO. In fact, not appropriate for Intermediate. Any debate on that issue?

One of the coolest moves we've seen up here was when Alice Cotton-Royer moved herself to Expert. Rather than compete with her hubby Dave Royer-Cotton, she took the pressure off herself. She hasn't backed down, Dave hasn't moved up. We have a lot of Expert fliers who could fly Advanced. I'm not sure if they don't know they're not flying that well, or if they just don't want the hassle of dragging home all those nasty trophies. If I live long enough to make Expert, I'll be happy. Steve

A piped
>.46 in a full boogey stunter in Beginner...not appropriate,
>IMHO. In fact, not appropriate for Intermediate. Any debate
>on that issue?

Classes are for seperation of flying skills not building skills. So the rig has nothing to do with class participation. I have seen a full tilt rig with a great Dope finish that was in a full blown INT fliers hands. It looked like an INT pattern. Granted he made fast improvements but was am IMT Pattern in the beginning.

Steve,

Hey, I became an expert when I entered a contest in Advanced and Dave Gardner uncerimoniously moved me to Expert. I found out when I was called to fly. Yikes! Been flying there ever since. I certainly don't fly well enough to be in Expert in most contests, but I figure I could be losing to Nils Norling in Advanced or Losing to Paul Walker in Expert. Might as well be trashed by the best. And besides, I get to beat The Dirt every once in awhile.

High Zoot PLANES don’t make the event. As Doug Moon has pointed out.
With so many flyers out there and a large douse of advanced flyers, moving the top two or three flyers for an event is the way to do it. You know even it out.

>Steve,
>
>Hey, I became an expert when I entered a contest in Advanced
>and Dave Gardner uncerimoniously moved me to Expert. I found
>out when I was called to fly. Yikes! Been flying there ever
>since. I certainly don't fly well enough to be in Expert in
>most contests, but I figure I could be losing to Nils
>Norling in Advanced or Losing to Paul Walker in Expert.
>Might as well be trashed by the best. And besides, I get to
>beat The Dirt every once in awhile.
>
>

Randy Powell

Randy, Nils has been flying Expert for several years, but we haven't seen him that much. He won't drive to (4 Leaf) Clover Park Tech (a 5 hour drive).

Ref. the guy with the piped airplane in Beginner, I'm pretty sure he won Beginner with that airplane at the Regionals the previous year. Also, he entered both Beginner and Intermediate, which leads one to think he knew where he should be. Steve

>Ref. the guy with the piped airplane in Beginner, I'm pretty
>sure he won Beginner with that airplane at the Regionals the
>previous year. Also, he entered both Beginner and
>Intermediate, which leads one to think he knew where he
>should be. Steve
>

Begginer is the one class where there is a much more solid criteria established for advancment. What is being flown, is not important, but, when the contestant is able to fly the entire pattern, he is required to move to Intermediate. At least that's how I read it.

Here's an idea:

To move up from intermediate to advanced(or from advanced to expert), a person would have to fly 3 flights in front of 2 judges and get scored. Prior to his/her 3 flights, a pilot from advanced class flies 1 "calibration" flight in front of the same judges. If pilot's all 3 scores are consistently with a certain percentage point(say, within 10%) of the advanced pilot's score, they move up.

To prevent people from staying back, pilots that finish in the top 10% of their class at any regional or above contest would be required to go through the fly off before the next contest!

This could be incorporated into a contest proceedings. Sorta like the Walker Cup for intermediate and Advanced Pilots.

How about that?

Right on John. In my first contest in 25 years, I wasn't sure if I could even remember the pattern, so I entered Beginner. I sure felt like one after seeing all the modern stuff. I asked Ed Culver to sit in the circle and call out the Beginner pattern which I didn't know well enough to trust my memory. One of the first calls was wing over, just a simple wing over, and without second thought, none in fact, I went into a reverse wing over. Ed laughed and said the mind may forget, but the muscles don't. Next event, same day, I was in Intermediate. Didn't even finish the first one. I quickly learned that the old wave off was gone too.

Steve,

>>Randy, Nils has been flying Expert for several years, but we haven't seen him that much. He won't drive to (4 Leaf) Clover Park Tech (a 5 hour drive). <<

You're dreaming again.

Randy Powell

Edit: Follow up to Steve's comment. This is from Nils:

Steve is mistaken. I've never flown in Expert. I've only broken 500 twice & one of those times I was flying in Classic with the extra 20 fidelity points. He's right about the fact that I won't drive to Seattle for a contest though. Too far away.

Man, am I OCD or what?

Steve,

Close, but no cigar. The reason Alice moved to expert was not to avoid competing with me. She had been happily competing with and regularly beating me for some time. As a matter of fact, Alice tied with me in the first contest she ever entered and then beat me out in the "gloplug spit" tie-breaker. Alice has pretty much always outscored me so that's not it. She does prefer my pit support and her flying in another class has somewhat facilitated that. However, primarily, Alice moved up to relieve the stress of being at the top of Advanced and in the sights of so many intensely eager to defeat her. Alice moved up to Advanced ahead of me and it came as no surprise that she moved up to expert ahead of me. She has always preferred hanging out with those from whom she can learn the most. Alice has out scored me because she has flown better patterns, plain and simple. She has built and finished all her own highly competitive airplanes and has a lot of natural flying talent. If she had more time to devote to stunt right now, you better believe there would be a bunch of Experts worriedly looking over their shoulders too.

And I'm still crazy about her after all these years!

When it comes to the PAMPA skill classes, I'm not much of a fan of them in actual, contest-to-contest conditions.

I hasten to add that I am not now--nor have I ever been--in favor of bailing on the program, and do not intend to jump-start a pointless debate over keeping them or ditching them. They exist, there is no chance of changing things now.

Still, the only real value--and it is significant--I see with the skill classes comes when selling contest participation to a newbie or retread: "Look, of course the expert fliers are gonna kill ya and leave your carcass to rot in sun. But you won't be flying against them; I'm thinking your abilities slot nicely into (insert class which seems appropriate) and that's the class you should enter at your first contest. I'll be at your house to pick you up at 6:00 Sunday morning."

If the guy or gal goes for it, great. End of benefit, or at least he is very close to the end of any bennies.

Because there will be someone, maybe a three of four of the someone persuasion who will beat him by only a few points, points he could *easily* have picked up were it not for just a few bobbles.

At this point the particular skill-level class our new contestant is in becomes a whole bunch less important than driving the ball to the hoop, beating those who so very narrowly beat him first time out.

Just exactly as would be the case if we flew "Open Comp" in Precision Aerobatics. Our new guy would be just as far from away from whomping PW, Brett, Ted or David as he was with skill-level classes, but he would still be focusing on the two or three or four obviously totally incompetent goat-ropers who beat him the first time out.

Once committed to contest flying, there really is no difference whether the format is "Open Comp" or skill classes. There is a slight difference in that there has been erected an artificial barrier, but this is a mind-game barrier and it is of no consequence when standing back, way back, evaluating the performances of each individual in the group.

Again, I am not bashing skill-level classes, they do seem to serve at least one important function, easing sport fliers into being contest fliers. But we fly Classic and OTS "Open Comp," there are no skill-level classes to contend with. Further, I have never heard anybody say either or both of these events could be improved with skill-level classes.

As to Steve and Randy's comments, both Randy and I sometimes fall short of the Expert category on a local basis, far short when it comes to being whatever "true experts" are on a national basis. There are any number of reasons for this, sometimes Randy is fighting an evil model, I had a spell of bummer (Scotte Riese will be glad to relate details) weekends where I couldn't fly, lost most of a year in contest attendance, about four years in experience and results.

But we would not consider dropping back a class. Been there, done that. Besides, if one of us were to drop a position, there goes a benchmark for each of us. Because Randy and I do indeed key off each other, check our scores closely to see who is putting it all together and who is a chump.

It matters not a whit what class we are in. In fact, maybe Randy and I should both move to Advanced PA...

Dan,

As bizarre as it may seem, I agree with you. I, like you, fly Expert, but as you and most in the Northwest know, we're not in the same league as some of the hotshots around here. PW, Chris Cox, Ted or Brett or whoever. We sort of constitute a class unto ourselves and all that really matters is the guy one or two places ahead of us. (Maybe PW and Chris and company constitute a class unto themselves?)

Now, eventually, maybe, if I live long enough, the guy two or three places ahead of me will be PW or Chris or whoever and that would be great. But I'm not holding my breath. I like it the way it is fine.

>>It matters not a whit what class we are in. In fact, maybe Randy and I should both move to Advanced PA...<<

Hmm, Think Nils would like that? And I suspect we’d have to get past Dave Gardner. Maybe we could drag him behind Steve’s pickup and work him over.

Hey, at least we got Keith Varley kicked into Scum Sucker Expert.

Randy,

Of course you agree with me. Of the two of us, who is *always* right about this sort of stuff? Da Dirt! Of course...

You have gotten me to thinking a bit more and it seems to me that sometimes the losers in this skill-class scheme might be those fliers who are in transition. A guy comes out of intermediate knowing he did well there, well enough to move on, but where does he really stand in Advanced?

The answer generally is, "At the bottom of the list, right where he belongs!" but to whom does he compare his scores in casting about for a benchmark? In some cases locally, one doesn't have a drafting partner in Advanced until flirting with 480s and 490s. (Cute analogy, eh?)

Of course, *if* the idea of skill-level classes truly has merit, and *if* what we as individuals really do is to compare ourselves against one or two other fliers, there is an easy answer: Allow each small cluster of fliers to form their own class of competition.

Those of us wise in the machinations of men--you and I for example, and do you think yesterday's movie has altered my choice of words?--would need to establish some guidelines such as no one-man classes and an upper limit of three or four per class. Plus you and I will get to name each class based upon the people involved (dibs on both McConnell's and Alice's classes), our personal whims, free association and a bit too much beer, in itself a worthy plan of action.

This is a really great idea! Think of all the times we have witnessed a shoot-out between Mike Conner and Keith Varley. For years these guys have had a contest within a contest; it's never made any difference what class of airplanes were being flown, especially as they both fly all three events; and the particular skill-level class has not been a factor, although they were both flying Advanced PA before Keith took the coward's way out and moved to Expert.

Where he is now suffering the fate mentioned in second and third paragraphs of this posting.

Dan

P.S. The movie was **great**!! I kinda think I like the second "Lord of the Rings" movie the best, but we're definitely going back for seconds on this one.

Dan,

-----Warning, competely off topic----

>>P.S. The movie was **great**!! I kinda think I like the second "Lord of the Rings" movie the best, but we're definitely going back for seconds on this one.<<

If you liked the second movie, you really need to see the extended version DVD. Remind me and I'll bring it for you to borrow. Very cool on plasma. But it is 50 minutes longer.

I still think the catapults were awesome.

Randy,

The catapults were in fact awesome.

And the first viewing (of three total) of second movie in the series was extended DVD version. We're covered, thanks to my kid.

Watch out! Here comes CyberCatHerder, act like we were talking toy airplane stuff...

...and so, what about this idea of mine? No, not that one, the small clusters of closely grouped competitors being shoved into equally small clusters for scoring purposes?

Just think, we can go back to the old ways of doing things, just run everybody through in a pack, same judges throughout, end of the day we gather "classes" and individual scores together, podium finishes for **everybody**!

Hmmm, trophy expenses are gonna go through the roof.

Dan,

Uh, no comment. Dave would kill us. Or find a way to kick us both into a class unto ourselves. Maybe and the other end of the airstrip.

Flyer, boot thy self!

From my own experience, I came back 5 or 6 years ago after a long layoff, having only flown beginner before. I learned the rest of the pattern on a hand me down Magnum (Thanks Wayne & Jim Smith!!!) and entered my first PAMPA class at the 01 KOI in Intermediate.

Suprised the heck out of myself and won with a 504!!! I had promised myself I would never stick around longer than needed beforehand, and I held myself to it. That was the ONLY time I ever flew Intermediate!

I'm self employed, but do fly with the club regularly. So, I don't make it to too many contests. The next PAMPA class I flew was not until fall of 03 at Huntersville, and I entered Advanced. Pulled a paltry (455?) I think, and took 10th out of a field of 15 or so. I was just glad not to be last. The scoring was tougher, but I fully expected it.

Flew Advanced again at the Rebel Rally, and pulled a 471, again, not dead last. (but really close!)

I blew it this year with a folded wing practicing the morning of Advanced at the 04 KOI last week. (landed fine, saved the motor and remainder of the plane)I fully expected to improve on my last showing, but now I won't know till next shot with a new ship.

But...if I find myself knocking on somebodys back door and can't seem to get around them for a while, I would either keep trying until I beat them then move on by and leave them in Advanced, or if I feel there is a "Halo" there, and I truly believe I am outflying them, I'll just move on up without having ever beaten them. After enough people do this to the these flyers, the light bulb ought to go on.

It's not the flyers fault they have a "halo" or whatever you want to call it, that's more a judging issue. But, an honest self assesment of ones capabilities should be the determining factor of anyone's moving up.

Eric V.

Skill classes are the most important thing that PAMPA has done so far as I am concerned. I would never have considered flying stunt were it not for the skill classes. My first contest, I got a second in Beginner (full pattern at the time!) at one of Moose Allen's contests in 1978. In the upper midwest we had consistant and excellent judging due to the efforts of Bill Zimmer. There was a group of us who moved through the classes together (until they left me behind.) I remember a couple of contests with 1.5 points between first and third in my class. You had no idea how it would sort out until the contest was over. It was wonderful!

So far as OTS goes, the pattern is not as difficult to fly as the modern pattern. It is challenging to fly well, however. I have seen the first place PAMPA Intermediate at a contest also win OTS, with Advanced and Expert competition. I don't feel any need for classes in OTS. My goal is to fly an interesting airplane and engine well enough that we all enjoy them. I've never won an OTS contest, but people have had to fly better than me to win.

Good discussion on this question. I started flying again two years ago after a respite since 1977-78 and 1957. Moved through beginner quickly, intermediate then to advanced beginning of last year at Salem or Albany, cannot remember resulting from an embarrassing high score for the Intermediate event. I asked Dave Gardner (CD) and was encouraged to to jump up to the advanced class. It was the right thing to do and besides, I got in three official flights for one event that day.

Looking at the group of flyers at the advanced and higher levels; I see a wide difference in both attitude and skill level. The main difference I see that differentiates the two classes is committment.

The flyers I consider to be in the Expert category are those flyers who dedicate a minimum threshold of commitment to:

Build fine aircraft;
Properly trim the aircraft to fly at its maximum ability;
practice consistently to perform a very predictable and clean
pattern;
Attend many competitions throughout the season;
Provide helpful assistance to mentoring other flyers;
Volunteer to support flying clubs in judging, clinics, etc;
Aspire to compete at the highest levels of the sport and attend
the nationals;
Consistently score above 500 points per flight; and
are considered Experts becuase they compete and strive to become
expert in the sport with a great deal of dedication and
committment.

Given the above criteria; the truly identified experts can probably be named by most flyers. All others are Advanced flyers and wanna be Experts. I think there are many flyers in the expert category that should be in the advanced level. For whatever reason they are in expert but by the above discussion should probably be considered good advanced flyers.

Traveling around the US with my Lancair to several contests ie, CA, AZ, WA, OR, KS I have seen a variety of flyers and this definition appears to hold.

You can identify the wannabe experts by their;

Desire and actions to improve their building and flying skills;
Inquisitive nature and asking for assistance on building and
flying hints;
and their actions to strive to become and behave like the
experts.

I have been trying to improve building and flying skills and hope someday to become a legitimate expert flyer. To jump into the expert class voluntarily by statement does not make me an expert flyer. If however, I enter into a contest and say come within a stones throw of a score of say Brett Buck or some other known expert below the top 10 flyers for example; then and only then I might be considered in the expert class. If the scores are consistently in the expert level as judged by the same judges then I am probably an expert.

This is one of the best reasons I see for the Classic stunt event. There is no skill level breakdown, We all fly period aircraft. The technology is proven, easily accessible to all skill levels and we all compete directly with each other. At this level we can compete with the experts and ultra experts on the same footing, equipment wise, and see how we compare directly with the creme-de-la-creme. I like classic very much for this reason. This is the arena where I can best determine if it is time to advance to the higher level into the expert class.

I have skirted the 500 score a couple times, made a 502 one time but the scores so far are in the mid to high 400s, not expert level at this time. The competition is the game, the more the merrier and more interesting for me. The equipment is easy to operate and is proven and known to most modelers. The esoteric equipment used in PA does take an additional skill level to thoroughly master. There is no real accomplishment in obtaining a piece of pot metal where there are only two contestants in an event. There is however, another level of satisfaction of having placed at a major meet with 16-20 competitors. That should tell you something about your performance on that day compared to the others.

Those individuals in the top 20 of the sport are there for a reason. They have talent but more important discipline to spend the time and practice with a critical attitude and studious manner and drive to achieve and the capability to continually improve and maintain their skill level. Let up and they fall down. That is the quality of being an expert in the highest sense.

Bob Smiley
A Lancair 360 builder/pilot trying to be a modeler

Bob,

I think you have to be careful about comments on desire or dedication. It depends on what ones reasons for flying and competing are. If your drive is to be the next national champ, then that takes one type of approach and level of commitment. If your desire is to have fun and do the best you can with what you have, it takes a somewhat different approach.

It's a matter of priorities. Some guys have a wife and 10 kids or are in school or have jobs that are demanding and their ability to put in the time and effort is more limited. The do what they can and try to get better. Not to be a world beater, but becuase the better they get, the more they enjoy flying and building. Others are more interested in some particular area of the event (take your pick: designing, building, resurrecting old designs, whatever) and don't have the time/ability/patience/money or whatever to make a consistent, high level effort. So they just concentrate on a particular area. Or they're just interested in the friendships or fun level or whatever. A lot of different drives bring people into this event and keep them there. Not everyone wants to be at the top of the heap. I don't think you can judge them based on what someone else is doing. Most all I've run into in the Northwest are pretty cool guys (and girls) and put a lot into it even if they aren't national champ material.

I've flown for a long time and would probably be a great deal more competitive than I am if I would just build a known, great design, practice my rear parts off and stick with that same design over a number of seasons. But I have decided to mess with stuff that is generally considered sort of on the edge of the design envelope. It has certainly limited my ability to be a good deal more competitive than I am. But I've had a great time and while I've certainly been frustrated on occasion (OK, many occasions), I've gotten a lot out of the trip and learned more about what's possible and reasonable and what's a waste of time than most people that stick to a proven path. But it's all been fun. Does that make me less committed to doing well or less serious about the event? I don't think so.

I hear you Randy. I think you probably have a pretty good idea of "where my goat's tied." I'm sure there are a lot of us who just really love creating and flying aerobatic model airplanes and hanging out with the kind of people who share our interest. Winning contests may or may not be a big motivating factor. I hear you too Bob. Whatever it takes to maximize the level of personal enjoyment for each of us is what we're most likely to pursue. I'm having a lot of fun playing with my favorite toys(stunters) in the way that's appropriate for my current personal circumstances. Disciplined dedication etc. may be necessarily allocated elsewhere for many potential contenders.

I lurk this board a lot and for some strange reason felt like checking in on this. I appreciate everyone's posts and just wanted to join in I guess. Maybe by hanging out with the cool guys, some will rub off on me. It could happen...

It's about time.

scott(lose some weight and goes away)Riese

Dave,

Hey, don't worry about it. You're already pretty cool. It's the beard, I think.

Randy Powell

BTW: you'll like the new plane. Not very experimental, but it has some style.

>Dave,
>
>Hey, don't worry about it. You're already pretty cool. It's
>the beard, I think.
>
>

Randy Powell

>
>BTW: you'll like the new plane. Not very experimental, but
>it has some style.

Dave,

Having a cool wife doesn't seem to have helped you at all.

Ya know, I kinda hope people will have read, or might consider reading again, your upstream post about Alice and why she moved to Expert PA. When she had been a reliable top-three finisher in Advanced, but hardly dominated, was clearly not at the level one would expect when seeing a NW flier bail out of Advanced.

Personally, I knew the story about the time she switched classes, never thought it odd at all, that is was a very well reasoned decision and fully supported her.

Ya know, it could just be, in the NW at least, Alice has one of the two or three healthiest approaches to PA: She knows *exactly* what she expects to get out of this event, what gives her enjoyment. When Advanced-level competition no longer delivered, or complicated matters or whatever, no problem. She bolted to a class where she knew her personal level of enjoyment would go up.

I'm just glad she didn't bolt to needle point. Or RC. Or poking me with a sharp stick.

I mean, you have noticed, haven't you, that when we see you at a contest, it's not "Hi, Dave," it's "Is Alice here with you?"

>I mean, you have noticed, haven't you, that when we see you
>at a contest, it's not "Hi, Dave," it's "Is Alice here with
>you?"
>
>Dan
>

I have noticed.

I agree with everything you say Randy. My view on this topic of advancement may be myopic (sp?) but there seems to be an emphasis on the average score for breaking into the higher class level. Hence, I assumed that the scores were important to classify (Experts).

I recognize as well as the other person we all bring special talents and interests to the sport. That is great. and in that sense we are all experts in certain areas. Many people are recognized for their individual contributions to the sport for these areas.

The term Expert we banty about here however is tied to average cometitor scoring range and as such it appears to me that those individuals who spend the time and effort to achieve those higher competitive scores are experts. If however your average scoring decreases below the threshold level, over the years (for whatever reason)the person should probably be classed as advanced for future competitions.

Bob,

I usually fly in the 500 to 520 range (521 being my best ever). Sorta puts me in the basement dweller expert level. Too good for advanced, but not really all that competitive in class. But for those of us decorating the bottom rung, it's a lot of fun. I may not be making Paul sweat or even notice (nor am I likely to anytime soon), but I try to give The Dirt, Pat, Bruce and company a hard time. I actully do occasionally.

Jim, I can assure you that many of us enjoyed your Jr. Flite Streak pattern that WINDY day at the VSC a few years ago. Well, they're almost all windy, but this day was windier than most and you flew that little plane like a champ! Which is the true spirit of the event. Like you say, everyone enjoys it! best regards,

This post was to refer to post #40 by Jim Thomeron. What am I doing wrong that causes the reply to (almost)always go to the bottom of the thread?

I have encountered this problem first hand, in the last decade, from beginner, to the top twenty every year I could participate. Here is my take on it. Ignore those that could move up and wont. Go around those who should move up and don't. Be respectful and encouraging to those who can't...and remember there is only one way to get to Carnegy Hall. You may never headline...but you will be in the show.
Finally, the joy is in flight, as well as engineering and art. Only a few here get paid for flying anything. Not all of the real pros here are champions or necessarily the best in our small community.

This topic has been discussed before. In fact I may have even introduced a thread about this on RCO a few years back. Never got a concrete answer... but at the local level....those I couldnt beat I went around to the next class...after awhile you begin to feel better about about third in Advanced than first in Intermediate. Sandbaggers lurk there also...even some of them are closet Experts with quirks or ideals they just can't seem to shake. Frankly some just dont care enough to go the extra millimeter or so...and sometimes that is all it is. A few millimeters...not miles.

Their problem ..not yours. Advice....move up, perfect your skills and equipment, compete often and enjoy the ride. Best fun I ever had in a vertical position. Also, give those friendly boosts to the next class as warranted and earned at the end of your contest once you get to know the talent in your area. Lots of guys dont even know they have more potential. Some wont want to know and think you a kill joy. But for most it just might be the encouragement or compliment they need. Thus far..encouragement is the only unwritten rule for advancement through the skill classes. For lack of better guidance it is the best guidance to date. Besides, this is not a team sport...what more could you give to your competiton..... other than a demonstration?

John

Steve, I just had to laugh at your comment about the plane-engine combination determining the class. We all fly and compete for different reasons. I build pretty nice planes and fly PA-I. I have overheard comments on several occasions something like this. "... would you look at that plane! What's that guy doing in Intermediate!"

I fly Intermediate because that's the level of FLYER I am. I've been back in the sport for three years now and burned a whole gallon and a half of fuel last year. Mostly this was done at contests although I do try to at least burn enough fuel to see if the engine/tank combination will work on the plane before I "...pays my money and takes my chances." (don't always get that done).

My point (if there is one) is that I really like to build. For me, the perfect joint, the straight plane, the beautiful finish --- this is what motivates me. I go to contests in the Southwest to see friends and have fun. I should win the most fun award at every contest I go to. I have never won PA-I at any contest but I have placed 2nd twice in the past three years.

Peer presure: I am experiencing a lot of this and have made it my goal to memorize the pattern and not use my cheat sheet anymore. My compradres think carrying the pattern in my left hand is way "uncool" and I promised them that I would know the pattern and not make them ashamed to associate with me at contests this next year .

John--- We (my wife and I) are going to be in the Amarillo/Tulia area for a couple of weeks soon. Perhaps we can get together for a fun session. (or two---or three---or... .)
And by-the-way, There is NO way you could even THINK of winning the "most fun" award if I am attending. I got it sewed up.

Bigiron.
Ck with Minor for details on my impending invasion of the Texas panhandle.

Interesting topic, and one for which there are really no "correct" answers.

Here's a though from northern California where the whole concept of skill classes originated decades before PAMPA classes were born. The Western Associated Modelers (WAM) had used B,I,A and E classes for many years before I came to the area in 1966. How far back I don't really know but I'm sure someone on the forum will let us know.

What I noticed over the years was that, in stunt, it was kind of a double edged sword. The did, in fact, get very large entries in the various classes and I can remember needing to have two circles to complete the event at even modest local contests.

What also became clear, however, is that over a period of time there would be a predictable progression up the ranks until a guy broke into the Expert ranks. At that time there were some pretty sharp guys who pretty much dominated the event (just like today) and the trophies for the new experts pretty much dried up.

A large number of flyers would, after butting heads against the glass ceiling, lost interest and quit flying.

Now, clearly, having these flyers there for the time they were progressing was terrific and there is no question their ability to share in the hardware provided by the skill classes was a large part of the reason. Inevitably, with the subjective manner in which performance is measured in stunt, many flyers became good enough to --almost by osmosis -- move up to expert due to their reasonable skills and their regular attendance. It becomes almost a social expectation that the best flyers in Advanced will sooner rather than later make the move.

(Note: It should be noted that WAM was a very structured, closed environment in which pretty much the same guys judged and flew at all the WAM sanctioned contests and, as a result, results from contest to contest were both predictable and, frankly, pretty accurate. Everybody just knew what everyone was capable of and there were seldom any "out of the blue" surprises about performances. The result was that we didn't have a lot of the "vagaries of competence" issues which make nationwide skill class definition so difficult).

Inevitiably, it seems, the same system which spawned the large number of participants, in the end, conspired to chop them off.

On a national basis we are almost certainly going to have to live with the situation where guys can "cherry pick" classes within reason; depending on the competitive environment at a given competition.

Certainly not perfect, but a better solution than forcing more or less at random and losing guys.

In other words, I don't have any solution either!

>Interesting topic, and one for which there are really no
>"correct" answers.
>
>Here's a though from northern California where the whole
>concept of skill classes originated decades before PAMPA
>classes were born. The Western Associated Modelers (WAM)
>had used B,I,A and E classes for many years before I came to
>the area in 1966. How far back I don't really know but I'm
>sure someone on the forum will let us know.

A long, long way back. Several of the early players (Lee McKown, for instance) says it goes back to the late 40's-early 50's. BTW, I think it was always Novice (kids), Beginner, Advanced, Expert. Uncle Jimby got them to change to use AMA rules, but that was only in the last 2 years.

>(Note: It should be noted that WAM was a very structured,
>closed environment in which pretty much the same guys judged
>and flew at all the WAM sanctioned contests and, as a
>result, results from contest to contest were both
>predictable and, frankly, pretty accurate. Everybody just
>knew what everyone was capable of and there were seldom any
>"out of the blue" surprises about performances. The result
>was that we didn't have a lot of the "vagaries of
>competence" issues which make nationwide skill class
>definition so difficult).

It was/is my observation that the WAM mandatory advancement rules (get over 300/400/500 points and win the event) resulted in people forced up far too quickly by national standards. We've talked about this before, but a lot of the guys you are talking about getting kicked into Expert and then quitting really had no business being in Expert. Most of them would have NO CHANCE of qualifying in Advanced at the Nats. But all it takes is one "hot" judge on one day, and up they went. Given that there was a contest every other weekend for a long while, you would get an Advanced flier bumped at almost every contest, as the top guys just got picked off the top every time. After all, one of them has to win.

That's the problem with a mandatory, objective advancement based on points, when you have no way of providing the standards on the judging side of the equation.

I think peer pressure at the local level, combined with the dearth of true experts in most areas, is doing exactly the same thing in the PAMPA classes at AMA events. If the same guy wins advanced time after time, and there are no true experts (like Top 20 pilots -maybe 30 people total in the entire country) around on a regular basis, what you you do? Same guy wins Advanced over and over again against local competition, there are 2-3 guys flying expert, and only one of them is a real hot-shot. The guys coming in 20th place in Advanced every weekend have got to start grumbling about "that guy should be in expert" and the winner starts thinking "this is too easy, I'm not learning anything, and people are complaining, I should move up". It's inevitable.

But then, along comes the NATs. You've got 30 real, undeniable Experts all flying open, and local hero now is looking at 35th-40th place,and basically no chance at all of being competitve. Then he starts seeing who is flying advanced. Obviously, most of the top guys he sees would also be looking at 35th place in Open, and local expert sees that he's not exactly going to have a free ride in Advanced - in fact, he's in a dogfight to qualify, there, too.

Well, skill classes exist to divide the field into competitive groupings. He's competitive in advanced, not Open. So he enters Advanced, maybe qualifies, and so the system worked*.

Only after the fact to the same 3 guys come on the internet and complain about sandbagging since he flew Expert at the Podunk Invitational, but Advanced at the most competitive contest in the event.

>On a national basis we are almost certainly going to have to
>live with the situation where guys can "cherry pick" classes
>within reason; depending on the competitive environment at a
>given competition.
>

It works out just fine in practical experience.

Brett

* I would also note that yours truly had the same choice to make at my first NATs in 1993 - I had been flying expert locally for 3 years, and I could have entered Advanced at the NATs if I had wanted. I didn't, but my situation was not the same. One, I didn't get peer-pressured into moving up, because the local area was blessed/infested with many national champions and top-5 and top-20 competitors. As a result, I had been allowed to fly Advanced until I probably was at the NAT's Advanced winning level - and then had 3 more years to improve on that (a lot, as it turns out). So I fugured I would be competitive in Open, and even with some problems, I managed to just barely qualify in Open (and missed out on the Rookie of the Year by a few points to Steve Buso). Two, I would have rather finished 30th against the top competitors instead of winning (which I think I could have done with relative ease) a lesser class.

Not bragging in any sense - I had better local competition, and thus no excess pressure to move up before I was supposed to. Had we been using WAM mandatory Advancement rules, I would have been forced to Expert in 1983 when I got my first 500+ score and won Advanced at the Lexington contest. I can assure you that I was reasonably competent, but in no way good enough to be competitive in Expert, or even Advanced in a venue where there were a significant number of top fliers like the NATS. Having Fancher/Whitely/Walker and later Fitzgerald and Trostle, and even Bob Baron a few times (not to mention other top-5ers like Gd Adkisson and Kirk Mullinix) at many local contests gave a much more OBJECTIVE measure of skills in all the classes than I would have gotten in almost any place in the country. So I knew where I belonged, and stayed in Advanced 7 years longer than I would have under WAM rules.